Can believing there is a God ever be rational?

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Jo's picture
@ Grinseed

@ Grinseed

Thanks for your response.

I am not sure what you mean by your comment. Yes, the three are one. A man that has a son, the son would call him father. The man also has a father who would call him son. If the man died and came back to haunt you (joking) you would call him a spirit or ghost. Three different titles, but the same person.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jo - The same one. Different

Jo - The same one. Different titles, (Father, Son, Spirit) but the same entity. Just as I can be a Father and a Son, but one person.

Why do you think it is that so many Christians endorse the trinity (that they disagree with what you said)?

Jo's picture
@ Nyarlathotep

@ Nyarlathotep

I guess because it has been around for a long time. It became official in 325 AD (If I have my history right) and so has been very popular.

I think that most Christians endorse the Trinity, but if you have them explain God they don't really explain it that way. The official dogma to most but not how God is actually understood.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Jo

@ Jo

The official dogma to most but not how God is actually understood.

'Actually understood' by whom? You used an argument ad populum in anther thread and now on this one you are saying the majority of believers are wrong but a small (I presume elite) have the 'real' understanding?

How do you come to to that conclusion? Do you have a hotline to god's thoughts that gives 'you' the real story?

Jo's picture
@ Old Man Shouts

@ Old Man Shouts

I meant that most Christians say they believe in the Trinity because authority figures tell them that is true. But most Christians don't really understand God as a Trinity,. They generally believe much closer to what the Bible says. That has been my experience talking to many Christians.

No hot line, unless you want to call the Bible a hot line. But somehow I don't think you would.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Jo - The [Trinity is]

Jo - The [Trinity is] official dogma to most but not how God is actually understood.

Are you suggesting that:

  • Trinitarians don't understand god.
  • Trinitarians say one thing but believe/understand something different that contradicts their lip-service to the Trinity.
  • Or something else all together?
Jo's picture
@ Old Man Shouts

@ Old Man Shouts
@ Nyarlathotep

Can I do two @'s at once? Not a very experienced blogger. Old Man Shouts and Nyarlathotep asked similar questions so I am answering them here at the same time.

What I meant is this. I have a close family member that is a Christian and beleives in the Trinity. I have explained to her what I believe about God being one at length at various times. She has always agreed with my description, but ended it by saying "but I believe in the Trinity".

The trinity became doctrine in 325. But was not in the OT, nor believed by those in the OT. It was not part of the beliefs of the early Christians. It is not found in the NT. Some say its roots or hints of it was in the NT. But the early NT Christians were Jews and so would not have believed in three Gods, or three in one God.

I think most Christians say they believe in the Trinity because they think it must be correct, They think they are doing the right thing. But in practice don't really understand or believe it.

Searching for truth's picture
@OP

@OP

The question assumes believing in god is irrational. Can you please prove that its irrational first? It's important to clarify your stance and explain why its irrational first before asking such a question. I know i am late to this thread so i apologize if this question has already been asked.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Not searching for much

@ Not searching for much

as the belief in any god is indeed, irrational, i.e completely without evidentiary foundation, then the questioners supposition is correct.

If you wish to uphold the rationality for a belief in a deity then please explain why you think belief in all the other gods like Thor, Loki, Aphrodite, Vishnu, Ganesh, Jesus and all the others is IRRATIONAL, yet your belief in the magical Allah is rational?

That would be a darn good read.

Answering Sheldon's questions would be a rational start....

(edit for clarity)

Searching for truth's picture
@Oldman

@Oldman

Seems everything you said is subjective therefore, really no need to be addressed. You have an objective way of proving irrationality? I would love to hear it. Irrational means not logical or reasonable, so please prove to me objectively how believing in a god is irrational. Also, please clearly define what is considered evidentiary foundation why your standard of evidentiary foundation is true above the others. Unless you can prove those nothing you or the OP said holds any weight.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SfT

@ SfT

And exactly the nonsensical answer I expected. You were asked a straightforward question. You have, as with all such questions, that may lead you to an impasse with your "convictions" declined to answer.

Here is the straightforward easy to read question once again: "If you wish to uphold the rationality for a belief in a deity then please explain why you think belief in all the other gods like Thor, Loki, Aphrodite, Vishnu, Ganesh, Jesus and all the others is IRRATIONAL, yet your belief in the magical Allah is rational?"

Surely not hard for such an intellectual giant as yourself now is it?

Your intellectual cowardice is on display once more. Well done.

Searching for truth's picture
No, you were asking a

No, you were asking a question based off assumption you have made and have not qualified in the least. Until you do so there's no reason i should waste my time answering your baseless question.

arakish's picture
@ NOT searching for truth

@ NOT searching for truth

And you are being a wishy washy caitiff and using the same wishy washy lies in an attempt to make yourself look intelligent.

Buzzer

Wrong!

You only make yourself look ignorant.

rmfr

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Sft

@ Sft

o, you were asking a question based off assumption you have made and have not qualified in the least. Until you do so there's no reason i should waste my time answering your baseless question.

So why should anyone waste their time answering your questions on these forums?
The fact is my question is not subjective, it makes no assumptions. It is a reasonable question and goes to the heart of rationality.

I think you are unable to answer it without displaying to these forums that your faith is built on nothing. That is why you are running scared once more.
Not so much a lion, more a rabbit.

Searching for truth's picture
@oldman

@oldman
No one is forced to answer anything or anyone it’s all free will. However, if you want me to answer your question you must first clearly and accurately qualify, elaborate and prove that’s it’s even true. Not wasting my time answering a falsehood or anything subjective. Salam until you are able to to ask a meaningful question.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ SfT

@ SfT

No one is forced to answer anything or anyone it’s all free will. However, if you want me to answer your question you must first clearly and accurately qualify, elaborate and prove that’s it’s even true. Not wasting my time answering a falsehood or anything subjective. Salam until you are able to to ask a meaningful question.

My question was rational and called for an answer. It goes to the heart of rationality. That you lack the intestinal fortitude to honestly reply to it is indicative of your lack of courage.

Then in your reply you mention forced to and free will? What force could I exert? Is another red herring you casually toss around to avoid an answer?

My question is english, grammatical, it needs no elaboration, qualification or proof. It is asking you to contrast your belief which you believe is rational against the beliefs of millions of others which you consider irrational.

You are ducking, diving and making yourself a pretzel in a bid to avoid the question. But then when have you not avoided the questions that reasonable people would ask?

Cowardly lion indeed. More like a cornered rat. (sorry Ratty)

Cognostic's picture
@Searching for truth

@Searching for truth
You are back for another spanking? Really? Don't you ever get tired of just being WRONG?

arakish's picture
@ NOT searching for truth

@ NOT searching for truth

And you are still Shifting the Burden of Proof. Why can you never answer any fucking question put to you without acting like a whiney-ass baby?

If you can't answer the question without Shifting the Burden of Proof, then just don't post. All you do is reverse the questions, ignore them, while at the same time trying to force everyone else to accept your bullshit lies and horse hoowhee unsubstantiation.

Can believing there is a God ever be rational?

Why can you not be a man with integrity just answer the fucking question?

The burden is on you. Man-up, or admit you are a __________. (And no, the answer ain't nice.)

rmfr

arakish's picture
@ NOT searching for truth

@ NOT searching for truth

The question assumes believing in god is irrational. Can you please prove that its irrational first? It's important to clarify your stance and explain why its irrational first before asking such a question. I know i am late to this thread so i apologize if this question has already been asked.

So you are trying to tell us that a belief in plagiarized lies is rational?

"Can you please prove that its irrational first?"

Yes.

"It's important to clarify your stance and explain why its irrational first before asking such a question."

Shifting the Burden of Proof as always. The thread title is: “Can believing there is a God ever be rational?

The Burden of Proof is on you, my little green boy. You must first disprove:

Arakish
Islam is literally a militacracy. It is not actually a religion; it is a tyrannical totalitarian terrorist organization. It is an ideology completely bent on wiping out the human species except for those who accept its maniacal terrorism. Islam should NOT be thought of as a religion, NOR should it enjoy the protection in the USA as a religion. Islam is actually a method of psychological terrorism and warfare masquerading as a religion. Until those fighting against Islam, as I do against ALL religion, realize this simple fact, Islam is going to be damned near invincible. And it is spreading across the globe like the mental pandemic it is. Treat Islam as the mental disorder and mental disease that it is. NOT as a religion. Islam has NEVER been a religion.

"I know i am late to this thread so i apologize if this question has already been asked."

And I don't give a flying shit if you are late. QUIT FUCKING SHIFTING THE BURDON OF PROOF!!

If all the fuck you are going to do is shift the burden of proof with every fucking question, then don't post unless you are asking a question. Quit taking everyone else's question and reversing it. If you ain't going to answer, then do not bother posting at all.

I am fairly certain that everyone, including the Mods, have grown tired of your whiney-ass baby tactics. The only reason you come to these boards is to twist peoples' words with your lies, falsehoods, assumptions, and treasonous hypocrisy.

If you ain't going to actually offer some intellectual discord … …

rmfr

Sheldon's picture
@SFT

@SFT

Is it ever immoral for a man in his 50's to have sex with a child of nine?

I don't apologise if this question has already been asked, as you have dodged it shamelessly.

arakish's picture
Along with all these others..

Along with all these others... Sorry Sheldon, couldn't help myself...

Sheldon’s Questions You Dodge and Never Answer

  1. If your magic book is inerrant, why is so much effort invested to silence or kill its critics?
  2. Is it ever moral to kill non Muslims?
  3. Is it ever moral for 50+ year old man to have sex with a nine year old child?
  4. Is it ever moral for 50+ year old man to rape a nine year old child?
  5. What is the penalty for apostasy in Islam?
  6. Do you believe a horse could ever fly?
  7. Do you believe you will get 72 female virgins replenished daily when you die?
  8. What evidence can you demonstrate to support your belief that a deity exists?

rmfr

Cognostic's picture
"Can believing in a god ever

@Searching for truth: "Can believing in a god ever be rational." The question assumes nothing. Just like all theists you have not learned to address one prong of an issue at a time. 1. Proposed: Belief in god is rational. 2. Proposed: Belief in god is irrational. These two have nothing to do with one another. ..... Can belief in god ever be rational..... If your response is "NO," it does not imply that belief in god is irrational. I could answer 'No," and hold the position that belief in god is benign. Once again you are all puffed up and responding to posts with ignorance instead of intellect.

NO ONE HAS TO PROVE RELIGION IS IRRATIONAL - Your reaction to the simple inquiry is enough to allow us all to see the utter ignorance of the faithful. No one has to clarify a damn thing in asking a simple question. "Can believing in a god, ever be rational." It's a simple fucking question. "Yes" or "No." If you answer "no" then you might want to explain why. I give you "God has never been explained in a rational way. If the god is not explained rationally, how can belief in god be rational." NOTE: I am not commenting on the irrationality of belief in god. Simply asserting that a belief in god does not seem rational.

Your religious upbringing and insane sense of black or white logic prevents you from seeing nuance in the world around you. You did not ask a question in your post. Had you asked a question it would have begun... "Doesn't the question presented by the OP, assume BELIEF in god to be irrational? If he asserts that, should he not give evidence for his position?" Then you would quickly find out no such assertion had been made and you would not feel so ignorant once again.

Don't you get tired of these butt spankings? Why do you insist on keeping it up? Do you think at all before replying to posts? Just curious?

Sapporo's picture
@Searching for truth

@Searching for truth
@Kataclysmic made the point on page 1 that:

"Any belief which cannot be falsified is irrational."

Things that are supernatural (such as gods) - i.e. that are not natural phenomena, cannot be observed, so it would necessarily be irrational to believe in supernatural things.

Grinseed's picture
@Jo

@Jo
I drew attention to 1 John 5:7 & 8 intentionally. Verse 7 as you would know is also known as the Johanine Comma. Few christians I know Unitarian or Trinitarian seem to know of it or it's dubious history. It was not deemed an official church tenet in 325, that date is the earliest record of it appearing in a copy of 1 John. In the first 1000 years it appears in a mere handful of copies out of thousands and only in the Greek.

It's a long story, Google it, I am at work with little time to spare but the gist is that it was fraudulently added to Erasmus' third edition of his 1540s(?)Greek translation of the New Testament but even he disputed in his foreword to that edition the reliability that it was an original part of the author's work.
In short it was included by team Trinity to ensure it's inclusion in the bible to give it authority it apparently lacked.
It's purpose was to support the idea of the Trinity. I find it amusing that as a Unitarian you gloss over it's original intended straightforward meaning.
Seems understanding the bible is more interpretation than revelation.

Nyarlathotep's picture
@Jo

@Jo

Are you not troubled that you have appealed to argumentum ad populum---ad nauseam---when it supported your beliefs (about god existing). Yet seemingly rejected it when it didn't suit your beliefs (about the trinity)?

arakish's picture
@ Jo

@ Jo

You know, you are as hard-headed as JoC. Sure you two ain't a couple dirty nasty socks?

I'll say this one more time.

Any belief in a collection of texts written by fallacious men as being the one and only truth is as irrational as me believing you have a herd of unicorns at you ranch.

rmfr

Account Inactive's picture
@Jo

@Jo

Maybe if you shared the evidence that lead you to believe that a belief in God is rational, then maybe I could answer your question.

Do you have anything for me to evaluate? Because if your evidence is... Bible says so, or I have a personal relationship with him, you're wasting your time. What exactly do you know that I don't? Please tell me.

arakish's picture
@ Jo

@ Jo

So as not to get lost in rest of the laundry.

Can believing there is a God ever be rational?

No. Unless you can PROVE there is a god with objective hard empirical evidence ANY belief in ANY deity is a delusion. Thus, ask yourself this.

Can believing in a delusion ever be rational?

rmfr

Jo's picture
@ arakish

@ arakish

Thank you for directly answering my original question.

May I ask some more questions? What do you mean by empirical? Do you mean testable by science or able to be observed? I thought logic, reasoning and reflection were also valid ways to discover truth.

I got a well deserved spanking last time I use the word "prove". Are you using it correctly? Do I need to prove it to myself, to you, to all skeptics?

Sapporo's picture
Jo: @ arakish

Jo: @ arakish

Thank you for directly answering my original question.

May I ask some more questions? What do you mean by empirical? Do you mean testable by science or able to be observed? I thought logic, reasoning and reflection were also valid ways to discover truth.

I got a well deserved spanking last time I use the word "prove". Are you using it correctly? Do I need to prove it to myself, to you, to all skeptics?

Logic can only be used to show whether or not something is internally consistent - it cannot be used in its own right to prove that something exists.

If a thing is defined in a way that is an oxymoron (i.e. a logical impossibility), then logically, it cannot exist.

In science, things are only shown to exist or not exist to a particular level of confidence - i.e. not absolute proofs.

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