For a long time in my life I have looked at the concepts of religion and after 2 years of gathering and gaining new information I have finally come to understand each individual religions down to the very oddest and unheard of there is. However I will make it clear I am neither with nor am I against believing in something of having a belief system. Yet I feel its time I put my name out there in the world by attacking and challenging the basic core concepts of why people do or do not believe in something and thus I make my statement clear, my rambling have a deeper meaning which is to start a debate, and I wish those of a sound mind would depic and challenge my answer to the ever lasting question of who is right or wrong:
"I only seek word with those of an open mind, for those with their mind's eye open have the potential to gather and attain better information than to those who stay in a constant steady flow of black and white. I speak to those who keep their views of how the religious side of this world is and should be. Do you not see past your own blindness? One constantly blaming the other for failing to have 'proof' or failing to meet some requirement and thus you become confused, frustration and its a constant struggle to lay claim to whose right and wrong. I'm sure I speak truth, and I say to you to hope yo quell your hearts only if momentarily to hear an old fools ramblings, but do you know of yin and yang?
Its typically how believers and non-believers act, the majority of black and majority of white are always polar opposite and move in an harmonious flow one never overtaking the other and this will stay for an eternity to be true. However do you fail to notice in that majority of white and black there is always a small portion, the 25% that stays small and silently moving along in this flow of 'light and dark' and its never clear of their true purpose as this is to represent the embodiment of those people and the majorities unknowing acceptance to the other side yet blinded by years and years of confusions based on time that the world tries to correct by filling the gaps through ancient texts deciphered by man and passed down to others of blind faith and blind hatred, adding fire to the eternal flame I wish to clench.
In the religious aspects, every single one mind you, have something in common despite its many various forms of who believes in what. That is other than the obvious answer of "They all believe in a god or deity" would be actually much more complex and overlooked by lack of proper research. The point is, people of religious faith only become religious NOT by something that was trained for you to believed in at a young age, NOT by that of social or other effects of pressure and arguably NOT by one's own choice. They simply are religious because its a coping mechanism for the fear of the unknown aka death as we call it.
The human mind lives for making sure its body functions well and is as stable as possible for its longevity in its lifespan. When the human mind faces something unknown common effects are feeling nervous or scared as the majority of people are, and its why we have religion to quell our fears and try to answer some of most life's infuriating questions: "How did the world come to be? Who were we as people before?". Religion is the answer the mind can properly digest and make sense of because at our current level in technology, its humanly impossible to go physically see the answer for ourselves and the mind typically has a hard time figuring out what can't be figured out easily or at all for that matter.
On the flip side, those who lack in faith only do so because of multiple reasons but all of them have a common core to it as well and that being people who lack in faith of a god or deity simply rejects it because their minds have been trained to respond by not fearing the unknown and what will happen next after death and they aren't infuriated by what happened in the past or who we might have been because they have been trying their hardest to go back using what they've been given now by those left behind to try and figure out in a sense who we are in the ever changing world of today, using logical means something that makes 'proper sense' to answer the questions we all want a solid answer to. Its not that they don't care or aren't curious themselves, but they just aren't sure how to approach such a difficult and unknown problem and be able to rebuttal against believers who already found their answer through what can arguably be called questionable means.
I believe that this world and young people today will find something that will cause the biggest change in time that will change the world over but until that time will will continue to have our young outspoken yin's and yang's. To those 25% embodied individuals reading this, I do encourage you to speak out against this ever-flowing argument in time, for I am old and withering as time goes on but you have the opportunity to continue my message in hopes of changing those who are of yin and yang. And to the majority with the hearts of the 25% I urge you all to see life in both aspects and respect them as you would a mother or a father, it may seem silly to some but others have no choice because its a primal fear that cannot be easily shaken and I urge you to open up our mind's eye all of you, and see the world through a whole new lens.
One more thing to address as i'm sure most people will ask would be: "Well what is your standing? there can't be a middle ground" and i'm sure or at least I hope you will try to defend an old man like me in saying that If I were to place a name on what I feel or where I am that opposes both religious and non-religious beliefs and views the world in harmonious fashion with an answer to be told one way or another would or could possible be called "Beyond Invisible Trivial Barriers" or my teachings of BITB. I have much more to share to those willing to listen before my time on this earth ends."
Now who wants to liven up this old man's day and challenge my words with one's of your own? I invite you to speak freely and I shall answer you as soon as I can whenever I can as soon as possible. In my opinion its better to fight with words because only then can we truly understand the other's side and not be lost in our own misguidance...
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I am not convinced by any religious argument of its validity.
Well that's what most people who are skeptical of any type or form of religious belief but your statement is very honest and I enjoy that fact. However we can never truly know how correct religion is because its as unknown as death itself or what could happen in the future. We all guess based on what we know and how the world might be yet there is always a change never forget. Even in my old age times have changed to the point where a person can believe whatever he or she wished and not have to be 'bullied' to the point of suicide. Yet we as humans are always prone to mistakes we are not perfect and I accept this fact, the smarted man in the world couldn't be the smartest without making a few mistakes before he got there because its human nature to mess up. Saying something is valid is completely invalid because unless people the world over started to become precise or exact with everything and I mean everything, no guessing, than its up to say if something should have validity worth or not.
The man who gave the theory of evolution gave it to the world because its simply that, a theory, its not 100% valid no matter how you look at it, and we can still never know unless we truly fought against time to see for ourselves. Its a possibility and nothing more, same goes with any religious aspect, who's to say you were born from something we can't see or evolved from an ape? They are both possibilities to something we can't find out because we aren't quite there yet.
My goal is not to force anyone to accept what another religion has to say you are human, you feel how you wish to feel. I only want the world to see that no matter how you view the world in whatever you take it as, know that as humans we are not PERFECT we are imperfect being that strive towards perfections to better understand what is unknown so we can lay claim to what should be branded as something truly valid or invalid
Evolution is a scientific fact. I am not convinced of the validity of your argument. Being open minded does not mean we have to be so open minded we let our brains fall out.
I enjoyed that statement ^.^ its fun to have a few playful words in a debate. And while playful that is true as well we should not let that happen it would be bad for everyone worldwide, my wouldn't that be something? I have experienced many things in my life here both good and bad, and you make a fair point but you should not forget that the knowledge we attain from others is used for many things they key point being to survive and grow as a people inching towards the ever shining light of perfection.
By you saying "Evolution is a scientific fact." means little only because evolution in and of itself IS still a theory that is only backed up by fact by means of scientific measures and observation which helps try and convince those who read it to make it seem as valid as possible but again we cannot know for certain so i'm not sure of the 'validity' of your statement ^.^.
Yes there can be evidence that supports it by using animals and plants and even yourself but that isn't 100% as the same can be said for there is evidence in religious text because of there being an original copy to the many translated versions given out to those of different beliefs or scriptures and paintings and texts that have been sitting around for as long if not longer than the ideals of evolution.
( And please do not get upset, that is not my intention here, I only hope you are glad to hear one's opinion as I hear yours and that this doesn't turn into something full of negativity but of an opportunity to reach an understanding )
Outren - "I have finally come to understand each individual religions down to the very oddest and unheard of there is"
Stopped reading there.
One must not limit him or herself to knowing a few, true knowledge and understanding comes from knowing all that you can even if its questionable, the world is ever changing and even an ol coot like myself has to learn or at least interpret to the best degree of the 'newer' styles of what we as individuals call religion now
Outren - "I have finally come to understand each individual religions down to the very oddest and unheard of there is"
delusions of grandeur
D of G and it's fascinating that one can understand that which is unheard of. Curious.
delusions of grandeur - a false impression of one's own importance
Yet if you were to read the rest or if you have read the rest you would understand my meaning. And I do not pride myself for knowing those things I simply say it because the statement isn't a false one, there are some religions some would deem odd and other never even heard of and I took the time to look into even the grey area's.
Me saying that statement is for me saying that I have a proper footing on the religious aspect of the world. It may not be EVERY single entire religion but hopefully you understand my point. I just thought that it would be simple to over look something trivial as that statement but everyone is there own person ^.^
And I thank you for pointing out the detail, but what I have to say goes beyond that and I feel its more important, if we get stuck in simple problems as these the world can never truly move forward and my goal is to make that happen, to over come a problem that's been around for centuries
Outren - "my goal is to make that happen, to over come a problem that's been around for centuries"
Right; dishonesty is a problem that has been around a long time, maybe you should start by overcoming that on your end.
We all make mistakes and have our shortcomings. If we were all perfect humans would practically live on forever, but we aren't at that point yet at least not physically. Some things can be overcome and other things cannot. I believe in not only my strengths but in the hearts of the people and their opinions, thoughts and ideals as a whole.
Knowledge takes people far in life, experience does as well, but so does other things and if we dwell on the smaller things, the darker side of life and the negative aspects we as humans create, you'd see a world full of lies, mistrust and uncertainty. But there are people who fight that negativity and look at the world in a new angle, one that defy's all logical means of common sense but its a possibility that it may come true and thats why you have to try and move forward.
They say the first step is always the hardest but everyone, eventually walks. It may not be in the literal sense, but everyone chooses a path to follow and a light they see at the end of the tunnel and they don't let the smaller more negative things in life hold them back, so while I may have my faults I hardly care because i know i'm not gunna get everything right the first time and i'm not gunna try to. I'd rather learn and understand through others to become something better and brighter to help me move forward.
I dunno what more do you want from me, but i'll give it all I can and nothing less
No negativity here Outren. I too have studied many religions. Much longer than 2 years . I can say I began that search at 13 years of age. 43 years ago. I am not convinced.
Your statement : "By you saying "Evolution is a scientific fact." means little only because evolution in and of itself IS still a theory that is only backed up by fact by means of scientific measures and observation which helps try and convince those who read it to make it seem as valid as possible"
This spells out the validity of science perfectly. A theory backed up by fact , means of scientific measures , and observation as a valid way to be persuasive . Exactly! However , I think it means alot.
While it is true that I did say I have only studies for 2 years that is not when started my journey. I am a 70 year old man who's lived a good life and only wish to share my knowledge from my travels and what I have seen with my own eyes and experience with what youthful energy I once had ^.^
I do also admit that my memory isn't as strong as it used to be, so I may be incorrect unintentionally and I apologize if I make entirely little to no sense but I will keep coming back as best as I am able while I can. And your statement to my statement has one small flaw you refuse to let go, that being that a theory backed up by fact, does not make it fact, even by scientific measures, it still does not make it fact, just look at people who do the weather, they can only predict and make theories on how the weather will be today and the week on, all covered by science and what not, but this does not make what they say to be right or true because they themselves admit to be wrong and incorrect at times.
I think it is wrong of me to say that it means little that was a very excellent point and one that made this ol timer huff abit trying to get my words in order, but hopefully my example will make things clearer for what i'm trying to say
"The point is, people of religious faith only become religious NOT by something that was trained for you to believed in at a young age, NOT by that of social or other effects of pressure and arguably NOT by one's own choice. They simply are religious because its a coping mechanism for the fear of the unknown aka death as we call it."
I disagree with this. While some people may be religious, through fear of death etc, it's no coincidence that the overwhelming majority of religious people just follow the same religion as their parents.
"On the flip side, those who lack in faith only do so because of multiple reasons but all of them have a common core to it as well and that being people who lack in faith of a god or deity simply rejects it because their minds have been trained to respond by not fearing the unknown and what will happen next after death"
Not so, many atheists are afraid of death, and atheists arent "trained" in anything. You seem to be making a lot of sweeping generalisations. The fact is, the majority of people lose their faith, due to the obvious inconsistencies and contradictions and dubious morality contained within religious texts and teachings, and the complete lack of evidence for the existence of a god, it's as simple as that.
I do not mean this in a literal sense I use most terms figuratively just to give you an image and better understanding of what I mean to say and the obvious reasoning in the differences in why the two share different opposing views in a simplified way. I know its obvious nobody was trained to do anything let me be clear, but your reasons for why the majority of people who lose faith is accurate, I only meant that those in a non religious view point was more curious and strong enough to question religious beliefs.
I was trying to make that clear in the beginning but I'm old and i'm only human and I make mistakes, this is why we state why is incorrect so that there can be clarity. Many people fear the unknown I know that to be true no matter who you are or what you believe in but as I said, just trying to explain the being an atheist isn't as simple as you may think it is and that you could try giving more credit to something that different. As atheist's I see a group who fights the flow because they truly believe in something different and that it should be made clear. I see a group of people who want answers but cannot get them because of their pride of being different and nobody has just gone out to search for a better meaning other that "It doesn't make sense" sure that can be a generalization too but can you tell me that there has been any change since the start of the vs between the two? other than there being more lenient branches of religion that somewhat side with atheism
I'm sorry, but I have no idea what point you're trying to make. None of what you've just said came across in your original post, and in your last paragraph "As atheist's I see a group who fights the flow because they truly believe in something different" what does that even mean? Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god, that's the only thing we have in common. Atheism is as old as religion itself, so I'm not sure how we "believe in something different".
Well since the start, the only difference I would say, is that Atheism is growing. More and more people are educating themselves and discarding religion and belief in a deity. This IMO is a good thing.
Stop looking for logical answers! Not every answer is or has to be logical ^.^, you've read but have not interpreted or even considered viewing my reasoning in another light thats why you do not understand. How can you if you do not look at it differently, you look at the perspective to better suit your own ideals and erase everything else thats what I'm asking people NOT to do and challenge you all because I know its simpler than what people keep trying to make it as. Don't over think but don't over complicate i'm not speaking in riddles or rhymes i'm simply telling you something that could be a potential upgrade to life
I do not lay my claims to be accurate or even correct! I'm learning through all of you who post to me as I hope you do through me. Yes i understand this is a debate but whats the point of saying something if you don't try, really sit and think about it? then its just empty words and sentences and I hate people who talk just to talk and share no true feeling towards what they talk about whats the point?
Not everything I say will relate back to the original because thats just a start up, a spark, something to get people typing and saying something so we can engage in active conversation and learn more THAT is the point of this, its been a long time since i've been in school and this isn't that! I didn't come here to make a college report and refer back to things I came here to talk to others, so we cal all become something more!
Thats why i called this a challenge, thats why this is my plea for change!
"Stop looking for logical answers! Not every answer is or has to be logical ^.^, you've read but have not interpreted or even considered viewing my reasoning in another light thats why you do not understand"
Because you're reasoning, to me, makes absolutely no sense, I don't even think you know what your reasoning is.
"I do not lay my claims to be accurate or even correct! I'm learning through all of you who post to me as I hope you do through me"
Then stop getting defensive when we challenge what you say.
"Yes i understand this is a debate but whats the point of saying something if you don't try, really sit and think about it?"
I have thought about it, and I think you're wrong. Just because I'm not answering in the airy fairy waffley way you seem to prefer, does not make my opinion any less valid. I just like to get to the point, something you might like to try?
I do not get defensive, sure maybe a little passionate but nothing more than that I assure you. I would ask you what makes little or no sense so I can give clarity, its why i'm here and its why I discuss. I understand my opinions seem odd at best but in my opinion its only because you hardly if ever hear a person speaking in the manner of which I do.
I've seen the world over, ts sufferings, its challenges, its good things and bad but I have not seen everything, only what I could get during my travels. And it doesn't take experience to say this world and the people in it are definitely flawed in one way or another but thats fine because nobody is perfect.
I do not expect you to answer in any way but your own opinion but I do ask that you keep an open mind and view what I have to say not in the way you know, but in one you don't. I don't expect everyone to agree with it doesn't work that way, thats just how it is and I am getting to the point its just a really long one thats impossible to shorten or simply and I tell it in way that allows you to take in the knowledge and properly digest it and interpret it in your own way and ask me again so I can either give more clarity or move on to a new question.
Outren , let me ask you two questions :
1 : In the last 500 years what contribution has religion made to the advancement of knowledge?
2 : In terms of human morality , what does religion offer that we could not discern ourselves having a reasonable conversation such as this one ?
Your question go together and they are both individual let me explain.
The first answer to the first question would be us. Religion in some ways have played a major role in discovering who we are as people and how we should define ourselves how we view other people in the world its kinda like a reflection in large lake.
The second question, the answer would be contentedness. If religion was not relevant to conversation, would I be talking to you or the 30 others who I may speak to in the future that question my standings? Some grew up no believing in anything and acts the same as the next person that much is true, but despite the origin being odd, religion is like a mirror somewhat for those who believe and it allows one to reflect and grow better as a human being and for those without faith the same thing is implied on its not religion its personal experience
I am sorry , but I do not understand how that answers my questions.
C'mon I know you can do it ^.^ don't look at my answers with numbers and data you will never figure out anything that way. People have shared and talked about their religions with other cultures, and with that we learned more about the world and ourselves as humans. That there is just more than what I was raised to believe so what is the answer? Its helped us grow to have a more open mind about the world and challenge things!
Its not always about being to imaginary or too serious, the point is that you simply reach a balance between what could be right, what is right and what is incorrect. Until we know for certain, I mean absolutely 100% positive I can show you using visual and intellectual evidence, I can safe with confidence that people grew and learned and became more connected with others as well as themselves, otherwise I probably wouldn't have this great chance to speak with you today
Outren - What you are saying is not that mysterious to me. I understood you. I just do not think it addressed my questions. Let me try again. We are communicating with each other now because of digital technology that would be unavailable to us without the advancements made by quantum physicists. This is an example of an advancement to human knowledge made by science. Science is a way of gaining knowledge. Any comparable advancements made to the body of knowledge by religion since 1516? If not, of what validity is religion as a means of acquiring knowledge? Anything new on the horizon coming from the wizened old sages?
Ah I understand, but your thinking about this in a way that negates my sayings. Science and religion go hand in hand in gaining knowledge. You ask how, and if I can't bring an answer then you would question the validity as religion as a means of gaining knowledge.
Now I'm not professor this is why I was rather stumped, but I understand you know and my answer remains the same but i'll put some spice in it for you. You ask me how religion made any comparable advancement and I will tell you that it hasn't made any comparable enhancements since that time other than they further understanding their own respective religions but that is not relevant to those who care little for religion so whats the point in having something that barely teaches us nothing or rather little?
Us wise ol sages may not be used to this newer technology coming out today, but my answer is truthful. However how religion has been given and portrayed among the generations has to count for something if anything. They may not progress as industrialization has but they share stories of the old days to give clarity to those who are lost, teach children from what is wrong and right, the everyone in this life is equal and has fair opportunity.
We realize that the world is changing and not many shall see eye to eye to the old ways and teachings, but I can assure you its validity through the young folk of today, the major majority of those who do believe and those who wish to further enhance their knowledge. The stories may change but the core life lessons remain the same and can bring a man down on his luck the happiest in the world.
All im trying to say is that its a different way of seeing reality and while my style may be old and forgotten I can assure you religion can be a valid way of acquiring knowledge, you just may not get a straight forward answer is all
Religion may be a way to convey morality to children. Many people in this world today believe it is good to decapitate a woman for having a love affair outside of marriage. Is this a good thing to teach children? If you do not believe it is good - Why?
This is where the struggle between meeting a common ground between what is right and wrong between religions and its nobody's place to say however the words given should be taken as a wake up call to those to blind to realize the inconsistencies of what they are doing.
I do not believe it is right and i'm not saying that every teaching out there in religion should be taught that would probably increase confusion and angered tensions between individuals. But as a human being you have to prioritize some things before others. Its not good to teach a child that but what should be taught is that what she did was wrong and you shouldn't do the same thing because its not right to other or oneself.
I feel all people do things we shouldn't and have done things or at least considered doing it one time in their life or another. Death shouldn't be something, no one's life isn't something that should be taken away for such actions it isn't fair. This world today is already favoring the side of man despite there being twice as many women on the planet! ( This may not be entirely accurate but its just to give you an idea ) There are some things that should be morally right and wrong without thinking about it, its an instinctual feeling you have its something very complicated to explain because its such a rare thing properly isolate and identify from other common feelings.
No, not everything in religious teachings is good and that's why we need change in a religious system, because lives of men and women are tossed and cast out because of accusations, because of mistakes because we don't have the will to do what we desire and my outcry is to address terrible things such as this, because taking a life if they haven't taken one themselves is wrong. Sure there are even exceptions to that but that's leaving the religious topic at hand
I believe you are saying it is unfair to decapitate a woman for having an affair. This is taught in one major world religion today. The punishment is carried out in Saudi Arabia. You say we need change in the religious systems. If you are going to advocate for change , will your plea consist of reasoned moral argument ? If so , why do we need religion to teach morality if reasoned moral argument will suffice?
Because to some people, religion is all they have, ts all they know and its all they have to go on for something to look forward to towards a shining tomorrow. It may not seem like it, but to those who believe really don't know how to function outside a belief system. In america, the basis for how most things are are built upon a religion or at least its implemented some way or another.
This is what I was saying in my introduction, the difference between the non-believer and the believers. On one side, the yin, they have the courage and tenacity to see other possibilities outside the realm of uncertainty and look for answers in a more specific way that answers their questions. However the yang are simply afraid because they do not know, and seek comfort where they are and they are comfortable like this because its been that way for them to their knowledge based upon what they've 'found' to be true that its been around for hundreds of years.
Its better to seek compromise and not deletion. Would it be fair if you worked on something for all your life, but because it made no sense to everyone else they simple get rid of everything you put your life into? I believe this is why believer and non are always arguing because no one ever seeks compromise its just your a left brain or a right brain but never the whole thing.
But, I am only one voice out of millions, and my plea is here because the change I seek, my goal is to change the world over with my message and I can only share and try to persuade I'm sure this is all things you know full and well, but it only ever takes just one person to change something
I asked why religion was needed to teach morality if reason would suffice. I am not sure how compromising with falsehoods is reasonable . If it is your mission to change the world over with your message perhaps it would help to answer my questions clearly. I am not understanding what this compromise you seek is. You are using Daoist symbolism to falsely categorize believers and unbelievers into two cosmic camps.. You are claiming you have a message that might unify these camps. Are you preaching a form of religious relativism ? Do you find some kernel of truth within all faiths? Can you clarify what truth you see in Christianity? Islam? Can you be more specific?
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