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@arakish
Well, if you want, define omniscient. Which I don't think is necessary other than for clarification, because logically speaking it would be nonsensical for us to dictate to an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, sentient being what or how they can or can't do things. If they wanted to grant us or not grant us free will they would regardless of our philosophical and metaphysical speculation regarding their ability or inability to do so.
Free will is obvious. If I want to believe I believe, if I don't I don't. If I want to speculate on the aforementioned being or free will I can. It's a no brainer. The only confusion on a theological perspective is predetermination. Which is nonsense. See my thread on the subject. If this ain't it. I don't know where I'm at on this forum.
@Empedocles,
That's very interesting.
I don't know about you, but to me, belief is not voluntary.
If I found something utterly ridiculous, I can't force myself to believe it even if I want to.
@CHK-C
That's a good point. I feel the same way. But, belief doesn't have to be blind, sometimes it's faith which is based upon experience, history, etc. You have faith in money, you have faith in friends and loved ones based upon those sorts of things. One may have faith in their spouse based not upon certainty, but the character of the person and your experience with them. If you let them down you lose faith. You want to believe in your spouse but if they let you down then that faith is diminished.
@Empedocles,
That's different. Having faith in how my friends and my spouse would behave is not the same as having faith in their existence.
There's no point in putting faith in someone who is imaginary.
@CHK-C
Well, you put faith in your determination that he is imaginary don't you? If there is a grand creator, and there is, then his testimony to you is the Bible. That is what I base my belief upon. It's never let me down.
Empedocles,
"If there is a grand creator, and there is, then his testimony to you is the Bible. That is what I base my belief upon. It's never let me down."
Do you ever read what you write?
Am I the only one who has noticed that you have written that you think that the biblical God character is imaginary and now you're saying that he is your BFF.
Has anyone noticed that?
@Empedocles,
I disagree. Even if if there is a grand creator, it could be something other than the god of the Bible.
For example, Taoists believe everything was created by the mystic forces of Ying & Yang. I don't see how Christianity is more believable than Taoism, even though I don't believe either of them.
I'm saying that before you put you faith in something, you need to make sure that it exists first.
BTW, I like you. You're not a troll and have been relatively polite.
The bible you've just claimed contains errors? The bible that we all know is filled with errant nonsense that has now to be rationlised in a desperate bid to ignore these obvious errors. Where historically it was cited as the immutable word of an infallible deity.
That doesn't induce faith that its divinely inspired message, especially as no one can demonstrate any objective evidence for any deity or any of its supernatural claims.
I put my faith in objective evidence, and with good reason.
Empedocles: Free will is obvious. If I want to believe I believe, if I don't I don't.
If god knows everything past and future, then the fact of us believing or not believing is unchangeable by any act of will, and all of our supposed decisions are fixed like bugs in amber. If human free will is beyond god's knowledge, then god is not omniscient.
@Algebe
It sounds to me like you are confusing free will with predeterminism. Like God has already decided who will and will not believe. That isn't the case. As the OP points out determining and predetermining are two different things. God has determined that there will be some people who side with him and go on to fulfill his purpose for man to fill and subdue the earth. Who those people will be are up to them.
God knows that we have free will because he allowed it. He has the ability to get to know whatever he wants, like who will want to live according to his purpose. I think it's best to avoid terms like the omni's. They are either incorrect (omnipresent) or misleading. Omnivore doesn't mean literally eating everything, it means eating meat and plant. Omniscient doesn't mean knows everything literally, it means he can know whatever he wants to know.
God, for example, doesn't want to know what it's like to live in sin. He doesn't know what that is like from personal experience.
Empedocles,
"God, for example, doesn't want to know what it's like to live in sin. He doesn't know what that is like from personal experience."
I had a tuna sandwich for lunch, wear clothes of mixed fabrics, and work every day of the week. Am I living in sin?
Empedocles: It sounds to me like you are confusing free will with predeterminism.
I'm not sure what "predeterminism" is and how it differs from plain old determinism.
Over the centuries Christians have dreamed up all manner of dismal doctrines, such as predestination and reprobation, that appear to rule out free will. Ultimately they all form an inverted pyramid of casuistry balanced on a vanishing point of ignorance.
How can you or anyone else possible know what god knows or allows, or what personal experiences it might have? The only thing we know about your god or any god is that they've never actually done anything in this universe or left any traces anywhere.
The claim for an omniscient deity is a traditional Christian doctrine. Some theists like yourself try to rationalise this with omniscient lite, but this strikes me as ignoring the problem with another ad hoc rationalisation.
This is the problem with apologetics, they either cling doggedly to erroneous nonsense (see creationists denying evolution) or they chase their tails trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. When there is a simple explanation for biblical errancy that requires no assumptions and fits all the known facts.
The bible is entirely human in origin.
(edited for typos)
@Empedocles
"God, for example, doesn't want to know what it's like to live in sin. He doesn't know what that is like from personal experience."
So you claim you know the nature of Ralph? ("Jealous" didn't work for me, but "Ralph" puts a face on the old fart)
Made me laugh again fair play to you. Sadly I can only agree once, but it's well deserved.
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