Do atheists presuppose the non-existence of God?

62 posts / 0 new
Last post
Oten's picture
Do atheists presuppose the non-existence of God?

Dear fellow atheist,

It's been a while since I don't post anything, but every once in a while, I access this forum to check what's new since I find it a very nice and comfy environment. Also, I feel comfortable in leaving my rants over my former religion.

I thank you guys for always helping me out.

Anyway...

Basically, I wanted to understand something that a friend of mine keeps saying. He is a Christian and an Old Testament teacher in a seminar.

He says that atheists "presupposes the non existence of God" as if it was the wrong position to assume. Well, I'm not even remotely close to be a philosophy expert (assuming this question belongs to this field), but I feel as if there's something wrong in the way he phrases it.

Would it be fair to say "yes, we do pressuppose God doesn't exist until such a time somebody presents evidence that shows otherwise. And if we don't take this position as default, then what else couldn't we pressuppose as existent (faires, unicorns, ghosts, leprechaun, etc)"?

Would you guys kindly elaborate on that?

Subscription Note: 

Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.

Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.

Calilasseia's picture
This is another of those

This is another of those duplicitous misrepresentations of atheism we see being peddled by supernaturalists so often.

Quite simply, atheism, in its rigorous formulation, is nothing more than suspicion of unsupported supernaturalist assertions. That is it. This does not involve, in any shape or form, treating the contrary assertions as true, because, quite simply, one can be suspicious of an assertion and its negation simultaneously.

Again, quite simply, the cardinal principle in operation here, is that cardinal rule of proper discourse:

All assertions possess the status "truth value unknown", until proper tests of those assertions are conducted, remedying the epistemological deficit.

Until said test is conducted, and provides us with a robust conclusion as to the truth-value of the assertions in question, those assertions can safely be discarded, with the same ease with which they were presented. Unfortunately, many supernaturalists misrepresent the proper application of this principle to their assertions, as "presupposition" (which it manifestly isn't) or "denial" of their favourite mythological magic entities (which again it isn't). Many of the same supernaturalists peddling this misrepresentation, are quite happy to apply the above rules of discourse to other assertions arising from other sources, but the moment assertions from their favourite mythologies are on the table for discussion, they take an entirely different approach, and presuppose in advance that said assertions are true, regardless of whatever data may be pointing in a different direction. But, of course, projection of their own discoursive failings onto us, is another well-documented supernaturalist tactic.

In my own case, I'm on public record in several places, as not only being willing to accept the existence of a god-type entity, once evidence becomes available supporting said existence, but I have proposed my own hypotheses on the subject. Principal among these that the moment any evidence for a god-type entity becomes available, it will falsify all of our pre-scientific mythologies at a stroke. Indeed, the one statement I do present here, is that I regard mythologies as incompetent with respect to the matter of providing us with substantive knowledge on the subject. That's because mythologies are, at bottom, nothing more than collections of blind assertions, presented as if they constituted fact, invariably with no substantive external corroboration. Even worse, mythologies have a habit of erecting assertions about the observable universe and its contents, that are later demonstrated scientifically to be plain, flat, wrong, which on its own points to mythologies being singularly unreliable as sources of knowledge on such subjects, and in turn casts doubt upon their reliability with respect to the central core assertions they present on the matter of god type entities.

The above points to why I erect the hypothesis, that any genuine god type entity found to exist will falsify our mythologies at a stroke, because this has already happened with respect to far less extraordinary assertions contained therein. It will come as no surprise to see this happen with respect to the extraordinary assertions as well. Furthermore, the frankly limited and parochial constructions contained in mythologies, as purported candidates for an actual god-type entity, are so manifestly the product of humans with woeful lack of even basic knowledge about their surroundings, constructions that furthermore are littered with internal contradiction, paradox and absurdity, that we can rule out these purported candidates with little effort. Just as the observable universe itself has been found to be constructed on a far grander, far more majestic scale than the authors of mythologies presupposed in their writings, I suspect that the same will be true of any genuine god type entity found to exist in the future. Not only that, but such an entity, if it exists, will be radically removed from all previous human experience. I've hypothesised in the past that the moment we have data on such an entity, that data will be so counter-intuitive, that the people best placed to understand it will be particle physicists, because they deal with counter-intuitive phenomena on a routine basis at establishments such as CERN. The notion that this hypothesis of mine constitutes "presupposition of non-existence" is manifestly ridiculous.

Indeed, one is tempted to ask further, whether such an entity would exhibit any of the behaviours attributed thereto by mythologies, said attributions being themselves massive presuppositions on the part of supernaturalists. Quite simply, if you were capable of instantiating an entire universe and its contents,and possessed the vast powers of intellect and action required to succeed in this endeavour, would you be concerned in the least, with one small collection of organisms on one small planet, or what those organisms do with their genitalia? This is before we factor in to the equation, that any god type entity that exists, has apparently arranged for the observable universe and its contents to behave in such a manner, that testable natural processes are sufficient to account for vast classes of entities and phenomena that are part thereof, thus rendering supernatural entities superfluous to requirements and irrelevant. Why would any of the candidates presented in mythologies do this?

Quite simply, so many awkward questions arise from supernaturalist assertions, that suspicion thereof is manifestly warranted on a grand scale, and this has absolutely nothing to do with "presupposition". Instead, suspicion of supernaturalist assertions has everything to do with respect for the proper rules of discourse, and maintenance of intellectual integrity.

I'll also predict in advance, that if you show this response to the "Old Testament teacher" you cite above, that his eyes will be on stalks. :)

Tin-Man's picture
@Cali

@Cali

Freakin' outstanding!.... *standing ovation*....

arakish's picture
***arriving late (doctor

***arriving late (doctor visit) tree shakes branches like cheerleader's pom poms***

Give me a "C".
Give me an "A".
Give me an "L".
Give me an "I".
Give me an "L".
etc., etc., etc.…

And what does that spell?

Calilasseia. He's my hero.

rmfr

Sapporo's picture
It would not be a

It would not be a presupposition for me to say that I find there to be insufficient evidence to demonstrate that gods exist and/or that I find gods to be a meaningless concept.

It would however be a presupposition to suppose that things exist for which there is no evidence for.

David Killens's picture
Imagine I have been selected

Imagine I have been selected for jury duty. My obligation is to listen to the evidence, and decide if the accused is one of two things, guilty or not guilty. I am not asked to determine if they are innocent, only whether I am convinced that they are guilty.

And that is my position on the god question. I do not see any evidence this god exists, but I am not convinced that one does not exist either. So just like me voting "not guilty", I withhold belief in any god until proven either way.

Diotrephes's picture
Oten,

Oten,

"Basically, I wanted to understand something that a friend of mine keeps saying. He is a Christian and an Old Testament teacher in a seminar."

If your friend teaches the Old Testament he should now what the Ten Commandments are. So ask him. If he reguritates the ones from Exodus chapter 20 or the ones in Deuteronomy chapter 5 he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground and is just making stuff up to sound important. He will have exposed himself to be a dummy. The real Ten Commandments are in Exodus chapter 34 verses 11-28 and the miracles are based on Exodus 34:10. All of the biblical stories are based upon those verses.

There are thousands of gods, each with its own unique name and attributes. The word god is just a generic title which doesn't actually mean anything since it is not specific to any certain deity. Is he talking about Jealous? Maybe he is thinking about Yahweh, the God of the Hebrews and the God of the armies? Or is it another biblical deity? Get him to be specific.

Oten's picture
Hi Diotrephes,

Hi Diotrephes,

I am pretty sure he'll come up with a good apologetics (*cogh excuses) to defend the old testament. He's being doing this for year that he is even now teaching it.

For the sake of argument, I assume he's talking about Yahweh, but I know that there are thousands of gods. Even within Christianity, god is described in several different ways that looks like completely different persons fitted to the culture the person lives in.

Diotrephes's picture
Oten,

Oten,

"I am pretty sure he'll come up with a good apologetics (*cogh excuses) to defend the old testament. He's being doing this for year that he is even now teaching it."

He can defend the Old Testament if he understands it. But if he doen't know what the real Ten Commandments are he is just an ignorant fool and should be ignored. So see if he knows what they are.

HumbleThinker's picture
"If your friend teaches the

"If your friend teaches the Old Testament he should now what the Ten Commandments are. So ask him. If he reguritates the ones from Exodus chapter 20 or the ones in Deuteronomy chapter 5 he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground and is just making stuff up to sound important. He will have exposed himself to be a dummy. The real Ten Commandments are in Exodus chapter 34 verses 11-28 and the miracles are based on Exodus 34:10. All of the biblical stories are based upon those verses."

I've seen this come up a few times. Could you please explain to me how you came up with this? Reading Exodus 34 (NKJV), I did not come to the same conclusion, so I must be missing something. Please enlighten me, o wise one.

arakish's picture
HumbleThinker: "I've seen

HumbleThinker: "I've seen this come up a few times. Could you please explain to me how you came up with this? Reading Exodus 34 (NKJV), I did not come to the same conclusion, so I must be missing something. Please enlighten me, o wise one."

Maybe because you cannot read or cannot see?

Exodus 34:28 (AV1611KJB) "And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, The Ten Commandments."

Exodus 34:28 (WEB) "He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, The Ten Commandments."

Open your eyes. Quit blinding yourself. Exodus 34:28 is ONLY place in the Bible where it actually says The Ten Commandments. Once again, you have proven your lack of actually reading AND studying the Bible.

Here are a bunch of memes that show the true truth of religion. Think Critically about them.

Scientists/Atheists read many books and feel they still have a lot to learn.
Religious Absolutists barely read one book and feel they know everything.

Atheism is not a religion. It is a personal relationship with reality.

People of a Religious Absolutist bent are often chronically incapable of distinguishing what is true from what they wish to be true. — Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity.
When many people suffer from a delusion, it is called religion.

Morality is doing right, no matter what you are told. Religion is doing what you are told, no matter what is right. — H. L. Mencken

Why must a religious person’s happiness come from the fact that I must also believe the same beliefs he has? — Christopher Hitchens

Religion is not merely a tool to oppress the masses, it is a self perpetuating scam that leads the masses to oppress themselves. — Micheal Sherlock

Religion: It is like history class. Just no facts. All lies.

Science is certain of nothing and requires proof of everything.
Faith believes everything and requires proof of nothing.

Thanking God for your food implies that God chooses who gets to eat and who does not. Did you also thank him on behalf of the people who died a slow and agonizingly painful death from starvation?

All religion, my friend, is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. — Edgar Allan Poe

All religion is Pure Evil. — Arakish

Why is your deity so capable of healing invisible maladies (cancers, infections, diseases), yet so incompetent of healing the visible maladies (amputees)? — Arakish

Think Critically about them.

And how about actually reading your damned Bible before you prove you've never read it.

rmfr

HumbleThinker's picture
@arakish

@arakish

I KNEW you were going to jump in with this garbage. Classic meglomaniac spreading his infinite wisdom.

Aside from the fact that the translations you posited do nothing to aid your conclusion, consider these other translations:

Exodus 34 (NIV) “The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.”

Exodus 34 (KJV) “And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.”

Exodus 34 (NKJV) “And the Lord said to Moses, “Cut two tablets of stone like the first ones, and I will write on these tablets the words that were on the first tablets which you broke.”

Even without understanding the context of the preceding lines, these are pretty clear. The words written on the first stones (Ten commandents) were written again on the second stones! The commandments that follow are in addition to, not in place of. Fuck off.

arakish's picture
@ HumbleThinker

@ HumbleThinker

And who is being maniacal? Verse 28 dude. NOT verse 1.

Exodus 20:1-17 (and you can keep on reading until Exodus 34:28 and NEVER see the words "The Ten Commandments")

God spoke all these words, saying,
“I am Yahweh your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
“You shall have no other gods before me.
“You shall not make for yourselves an idol, nor any image of anything that is in the heavens above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: you shall not bow yourself down to them, nor serve them, for I, Yahweh your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and on the fourth generation of those who hate me, and showing loving kindness to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
“You shall not misuse the name of Yahweh your God, for Yahweh will not hold him guiltless who misuses his name.
“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. You shall labor six days, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to Yahweh your God. You shall not do any work in it, you, nor your son, nor your daughter, your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your livestock, nor your stranger who is within your gates; for in six days Yahweh made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day; therefore Yahweh blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy.
“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land which Yahweh your God gives you.
“You shall not murder.
“You shall not commit adultery.
“You shall not steal.
“You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.
“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

Nowhere are any called "The Ten Commandments" except the ten that come in Exodus 38:11-27, then, ONLY then, in Exodus 38:28 are they called the The Ten Commandments.

"Even without understanding the context of the preceding lines, these are pretty clear. The words written on the first stones (Ten commandents) were written again on the second stones! The commandments that follow are in addition to, not in place of. Fuck off."

And you are completely wrong. The Ten Commandments are plainly said in Exodus 34:11-28. Nowhere are any "ten" of anything called "The Ten Commandments." Nowhere else in the entire book of Exodus are the true writings ever revealed that were on the first tablets. It is not revealed until after Moses went up to get the second remade that The Ten Commandments are finally revealed of the Covenant with the Hebrews.

"Classic meglomaniac spreading his infinite wisdom."

And what exactly are you trying to do?

rmfr

EDIT: and meglomaniac is actually spelled megalomaniac

Diotrephes's picture
HumbleThinker,

HumbleThinker,

"Even without understanding the context of the preceding lines, these are pretty clear. The words written on the first stones (Ten commandents) were written again on the second stones! The commandments that follow are in addition to, not in place of. Fuck off."

You are being too silly and obtuse. If there was a hell you would end up in it. In the past I thought that you were just ignorant about your favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish religious fairy tale and that you were interested in learning about it. Now I see that you are stupid and that saddens me so I will try to refrain from commenting on your future posts until you stop being stupid.

Proverbs 12:1 (ERV) = Whoever loves discipline loves to learn; whoever hates to be corrected is stupid.

Diotrephes's picture
HumbleThinker,

HumbleThinker,

The first thing you should do is to read the fairy tale for yourself starting with Exodus chapter 19 - Exodus chapter 34. Get some paper and a pen and make notes about what you read every few verses in your own words.

It is a good idea to know how you will define the Ten Commandments = written on stone tablets by the hand of God and called the Ten Commandments.

As you will discover the rules in Exodus chapter 20 are verbal, they were not written on the stone tablets. You will also discover that Moses went up and down the mountain like a mountain goat and that people saw God's ass.

You will also see that the God character was a fashion designer and a wizard who was into witchcraft. You will get to Exodus 31:18 before Moses get any stone tablets.

Then God and Moses hear the people partying and get pissed. God wants to go on a killing spree but Moses tells him to chill and let him do the killing. Going without food and water for 40 days will make you grumpy. Moses lugs the heavy stone tablets down the mountain, sees the people exercising freedom of religion, breaks the stone tablets, gets his thugs to kill over 3,000 people but doesn't say a mean word to his brother Aaron, who caused it all.

In chapter 34 God tell Moses that they will have a do-over and gets Moses to chip out some new stone tablets and to lug them up the mountain. Once there God writes the Ten Commandments on the stone tablets = Exodus 34:11-28. All of the biblical stories are based on Exodus 34:10-28.

Once you're read and summarized what you've read in your own words you should know what the real Ten Commandments are.

But here are some visual aids =

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCJ8rb8Grw 9:40 minutes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36g3auOm9HA 37 minutes

If you do all of that let us know your conclusion.

HumbleThinker's picture
@Dio

@Dio

I do not follow. Here is my summary, please correct me where you believe me to be wrong.

Exodus 20 provides the Ten Commandments. Yes, they were verbally given to Moses. The following chapters elaborate on the Law, then, like you stated, Exodus 31:18 says "And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God"

Then Moses goes down the mountain and breaks the stones. Then he goes back up with new stones and has to chisel out himself what was on the first stones. The stones that contained the 10 commandments, originally written by God.

Let me explain in a little more detail below.

Exodus Chapter 20 -
1 And God spake all these words, saying,

1> 2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

2> 4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

3> 7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

4> 8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

5> 12 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

6> 13 Thou shalt not kill.

7> 14 Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8> 15 Thou shalt not steal.

9> 16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

10> 17 Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Now, after the succeeding chapters with explanations of the Law, just before Moses goes down and witnesses the people's depravity and, in righteous indignation, is furious with them and, in anger, flings down the Tablets of the Law, breaking them (unintentionally), it says this:

Exodus Chapter 31 -

18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

So, it's God, Himself, Who wrote the Ten Commandments. Moses didn't chisel them into the stone.

The verse you quote "and I [the Lord] will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest." is Exodus 34:1, coming in preparation for the giving of the Law the second time. These words are followed 26 verses later (in the same context) as follows:

Exodus Chapter 34 -

27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

So, first, it's clear, from both verses right above, Moses had to do the writing (chiseling) this (the second) time. Thus, 34:1 is understood figuratively. That is, the words are God's; the act of writing is Moses'. Some of St. Paul's Epistles were written this way; it says so right in them. Further, an executive has his secretary actually write a letter which he signs, but, later, when asked if the letter is his and did he write it (literally, no; the secretary did) and even send it (literally, no; the office boy did), the exec answers, "Yes" to all three questions.

Second, in 34:28 above it says straight out, "And he wrote...the ten commandments." So, these commandments are not the least bit different. They are the exact same ones. And they are, in fact, provided--again--right there on the second set of stone tablets. Thus, there is no contradiction" or inconsistency or "second group of commandments." Note that, earlier in the first time, they're not called "the ten commandments." Here, the second time, they are specifically called by this term as a form of "shorthand" precisely to make the point they are the very same, without right here listing them again since this is all occurring in the same overall context, Moses going up the mountain for God to deliver the Law to him, even if it took two tries. The relevant texts are cited in this email reply in blue bold so you can readily see the flow and connection of this point.

Third, the first time up was cut short, midstream in God's explaining the Law, because of the people's betrayal, and got stopped and said to Moses to hurry and get back down there. So, what you have the second time up, after the rewriting of the Ten Commandments, is the continuation (not "new aspects" as such) of the explanation of the Law. It is not a "new covenant" the completion of the delivery of the same one which was interrupted the first time.

So this, indeed, is the Old Covenant (or Testament) which was placed in the Ark that, from that point on, the Israelites carried about with them wherever they went exactly as our Lord told Moses to do.

Diotrephes's picture
HumbleThinker,

HumbleThinker,

"I do not follow. Here is my summary, please correct me where you believe me to be wrong."

Your conclusion is wrong because you are missing several important points.

Start with Exodus chapter 19. Moses ges up the mountain for a chat with God. God gives him a history lesson and makes Moses a promise. Moses briefs the elders and they make a commitment to be God's posse. God then tells Moses that he will speak so that the people can hear him and know that Moses wasn't just BS'ing them. They also had to wash their clothes because they stunk something awful. They also had to lay off the sex for several days. But if any person or animal touched Mt. Sinai they would be stoned or shot with an arrow. Moses goes up the mountain. Moses then goes down the mountain to get Aaron.

Chapter 20 starts right out with God spewing out some laws. The people saw a special effects show on the mountain. Moses is not on the mountain when God is spewing out the rules in Exodus 20:1-17. Moses chats with the people then goes near the darkness where God was and gets more special rules = Exodus 20:21 - Exodus 23:33.

It is important to note that some of the rules in that section become the Ten Commandments in Exodus chapter 34:11-28.

In Exodus 24 God tells Moses to bring Aaron, Nadad, Abihu, and seventy of the elders for a party from afar but only Moses is to come near. Moses then wrote the words, built an altar and twelve pillars, slaughtered some oxen, and did some witchcraft with the oxen blood. The group of special people then went to see God (Exodus 24:9-11) who was standing on a paved work of sapphire stone, and ate and drank like a New Year's party.

Then in Exodus 24:12 God told Moses to hike his butt up the mountain and that he would give him the stone tablets with the commandments that Moses was going to teach the people. Moses and his pal Joshua then go up the mountain. He leaves Aaron and Hur in charge. Moses then goes up the mountain, spends six days in a cloud, and spends forty days and forty nights on the mountain.

In Exodus chapters 25-28 God gives Moses some decorating instructions. In Exodus chapter 29 God tells Moses how to slaughter animals and roast them for sacrifices. In Exodus chapter 30 it continues with special instructions, including forking over money and how to make special witchcraft incense.

In Exodus 31 God gives a shoutout to some people he gave special artistic capabilities to and mentions about how doing any kind of work on the sabbath will get the person killed. In verse 31 Moses then gets the two stone tablets called the Ten Commandments written by the finger of God.

In Exodud 32 the people need to worship something and Moses has been on a vacation for 40 days so they tell Aaron to make them something to worship. Aaron tells them to give him all of their golden earrings (slaves had gold in those days) and Aaron made them a golden idol. The people got happy and noisy and God and Moses heard the party and got super pissed. God wanted to go down and do what he did best, kill people, but Moses told him to chill and let him have some fun doing it. Going without food and water for foty days and forty nights can make you cranky. So Moses takes the two heavy stone tablets in hand (written by God himself) and meets up with his buddy Joshua. When Moses saw what was happening and how the people were exercising freedom of religion he blew a gasket, threw the stone tablets to the ground breaking them. He then grabbed the golden calf , burned it, ground it into powder, and made the people drink the golden water. Aaron then gives Moses a lame excuse and put all of the blame on the people. Moses buys Aaron's lies and tells his henchmen to get their swords and start killing. They sliced and diced over 3,000 men (women and chldren were not counted).

After the bloodbath Moses goes up the mountain again to kiss God's butt.

In chapter 33 God tells Moses to hit the road and that he will do some ethnic cleansing for them in the Promised Land. In verse 11 Moses and God speak face to face. Moses does some more ass kissing. Then in verse 20 God tells Moses that he can not see his face and live but in verse 11 it said that they saw each other face to face. God tells Moses to get in the rocks and that he will cover him with his hand as he walks by and that Moses can see his ass but not is face.

Now we get to the real Ten Commandments, in Exodus chapter 34. God tells Moses to chip out two new stone tablets and to lug tem up the mountain. In verse 10 God tells Moses the purpose of the miracles. Verses 13-26 contain the real 10 Commandments. Verses 11 & 12 are part of the First Commandment but the writing is choppy. The easy way to understand where the Commandments start is by identifying the sentence that contains the word "Shall" but there are exceptions to that. Some Commandments contain two or more "shalls".

In Exodus 34:1 God says that he will write; in verse 27 God tells Moses to write; in verse 28 it says that God wrote the Ten Commandments.

Read the story yourself, make notes in your own words, and draw your own conclusions.

But be aware that all of the biblical stories are based on Exodus 34:10-28 and not on Exodus 20:1-17 or Deuteronomy 5:6-21. If you don't understand that you will never understand the biblical stories.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkCJ8rb8Grw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36g3auOm9HA

edit spelling

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Dio

@ Dio

We have our disagreements but...LOL...that had me wiping the tears off the back of my dress kilt and placating Captain Cat as I hurried to the bathroom to avoid pissing myself laughing.

I am not much into the pentateuch , I leave that to Arakish and yourself but you have given me the desire to read that lot....when I stop laughing...

arakish's picture
@ Diotrephes and Old Man

@ Diotrephes and Old Man

Old Man, you should look into wearing Depends. They can hold a good amount of urine in case you laugh that hard like I do sometimes.

Diotrephes, literally exactly as I would have detailed it. Might have beaten you to the punch if I had not come down with a nose cold and my jaw hurting. Spent yesterday, Fri 15 Feb 2019, mostly sleeping with a vaporizer.

And I could not help but laugh so hard at HT's diatribe.

rmfr

HumbleThinker's picture
So I post something that

So I post something that actually makes complete sense and you “can’t help but laugh”? You are the joke dude. And No, I’m sure you would not “have detailed it” exactly as Dio did, so in glad he got to it first. At least he knows how to read the Bible, even if we disagree on interpretation. You have nothing to offer.

arakish's picture
HumbleThinker: "I’m sure you

HumbleThinker: "I’m sure you would not “have detailed it” exactly as Dio did"

I am so glad you have no reading comprehension. I never said I would detailed it exactly like Diotrephes.

"You have nothing to offer."

And you have?

Go back and re-read those chapters in Exodus. EVERYTHING up to Exodus 34:11-28 are just commandments, NOT the Ten Commandments of the Covenant. As Diotrephes said, try taking notes this time.

rmfr

Diotrephes's picture
HumbleThinker,

HumbleThinker,

It's been my experience that I've learned a lot over the years by personally researching people's comments by reading the ideas under dicussion in numnerous Bible versions on such sites as Biblegateway. Some versions omit complete verses and others use different words which suggest a different idea.

The section on the Ten Commandments in Exodus 19-34 is one of the best sections in the Bible because it is written in a linear fashion. It is essential to understanding the other stories so a person should really understand it or else nothing will make any sense. That is why a person must know what the real Ten Commandments are and not fall for the bullshit about the ones in Exodus chapter 20 or Deuteronomy chapter 5 being the real ones. They are not.

So if you have never done the exercise of reading Exodus 19-34 and taking notes about what you read then I suggest you do so. And be careful not to omit anything because all of it is important. Read the story in several versions. Do it several times because each time you read it you will increase your understanding. For instance, in Exodus 24:15-18 what is the significance of God being in the cloud for 6 days? What happened to Moses when he went into the cloud? What does the cloud represent?

HumbleThinker's picture
I love the patronizing tone.

I love the patronizing tone. I'm sure you find it difficult to understand that a Christian HAS read the Bible, but I have. I have read the entirety of Exodus, multiple times. I have had multiple conversations with my priest about it, and people who understand it much better than myself. I have also considered your claim openly, going back to reread it, and still don't come to the same conclusion. I am telling you that I think I am just as correct as you think you are. Clearly, that's as far as it goes. We will let this lie here.

Diotrephes's picture
arakish,

arakish,

"And I could not help but laugh so hard at HT's diatribe."

The biblical stories are simply tales that illustrate the Ten Commandments in action. That is why a lot of the stories appear to be non-sense because people don't realize that the stories don't have to be true to do that. And the vast majority of people are clueless as to what te real Ten Commandments are because they get their religion from movies and from ignorant preachers. Although the Bible is the best selling book of all time very few people actually read it and even fewer people comprehend it. It is actually a very beautifully written piece of literature with multiple layers in each story.

For instance, when Moses went up the mountain in Exodus 24:15-18 it says in verse 16 that the cloud covered it for six days and on the seventh day God called to Moses.

Exodus 24:15-18 (ERV) ="15 Then Moses went up the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain. 16 The Glory of the Lord came down on Mount Sinai. The cloud covered the mountain for six days. On the seventh day, the Lord spoke to Moses from the cloud. 17 The Israelites could see the Glory of the Lord. It was like a fire burning on top of the mountain.
18 Then Moses went higher up the mountain into the cloud. He was on the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights."

Now what other story has a six day period in it? It is the creation story in Genesis chapter 1. So that little tibit ties chapters 25-31 back to the creation because those chapters detail the creation of the Jewish religion as practiced by Moses.

Remember what the writer said in 2 Maccabees 15:37-39 (CEB) = 37 .... So at this point I will stop. 38 If the story was told effectively, this is what I wanted. But if it was told in a poor and mediocre fashion, this was the best I could do. 39 Just as it is harmful to drink wine or water alone while wine mixed with water is delightful and produces joy, so also may the writing of this story delight the ears of those who encounter this work.

The end."

It is just a fairy tale.

Oh, and did you get the bit about wine and water? Who did that trick in the New Testament?

edited to add last comment.

arakish's picture
Diotrephes: "Although the

Diotrephes: "Although the Bible is the best selling book of all time very few people actually read it and even fewer people comprehend it."

Thus the meme:

Scientists/Atheists read many books and feel they still have a lot to learn.
Religious Absolutists barely read one book and feel they know everything.

"It is actually a very beautifully written piece of literature with multiple layers in each story."

And I agree. I shall never admit that the Bible does not have some good stuff written in it. Just that the bad far outweighs the good.

rmfr

Diotrephes's picture
arakish,

arakish,

" I shall never admit that the Bible does not have some good stuff written in it. Just that the bad far outweighs the good."

The mostly secular books have some good advice that most people might find useful at some point in their lives. All of the other ones are mostly useless except for a very few passages in them.

HumbleThinker's picture
I don’t agree.

I don’t agree.

David Killens's picture
@Humble Thinker

@Humble Thinker

"I don't agree"

Why?

Tin-Man's picture
@Dio Re: Moses and the Ten

@Dio Re: Moses and the Ten Commandments story

LMAO.... Have to agree with Old Man. That was fantastic. Some good belly laughs there.... *chuckle*

Oten's picture
Thanks guys.

Thanks guys.

I just remembered the "gumballs jar "illustration where you ask the person if she believes that the number of gumballs inside the jar are even. If she says no, you cannot assume that therefore she believes that the number of gumballs are odd. It's okay for she saying that she doesn't know whether they are even or odd. She doesn't have to take one position or another necessarily.

Not believing in any god doesn't mean that I believe no god exists. It just means that I simply don't know and I am willing to accept its existence as soon as good and sound evidence is presented.

Does it make sense?

Pages

Donating = Loving

Heart Icon

Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.

Or make a one-time donation in any amount.