The fallacy of testimony!

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Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: Cognitive

@Old Man Re: Cognitive Dissonance

Yeah, definitely a correlation there (at least from my point of view, anyway). It was always amazing to me on the streets how many of those guys/gals actually BELIEVED the crap they were saying sometimes, regardless of the fact they may have been caught RED HANDED at something. They KNEW exactly what they had done, yet they spun these incredible false stories they actually BELIEVED in order to divert guilt away from them. A small minority were actually pretty good at it, while most were simply and horribly "lost in the sauce." Laughable and sad all at the same time. *chuckle* I always got a big kick out of catching people in lies, especially if they thought they were being clever. I rarely looked directly at a person when interviewing them. I would stare off in another direction and listen for inconsistencies, deflections, voice tones, etc. Oddly enough, that is one of the very few parts of that job that I miss sometimes.

bigbill's picture
And I have to correct you the

And I have to correct you the religion of Islam is no where like Christianity; Religion of Islam says that when a person dies he is judged by his works either righteous or bad. While Christianity says that Christians when they pass away are in a state of grace covered by Jesus Christ blood at the cross; there is a big difference. The thing that stands out in Islam is that they believed Jesus was a prophet not gods son. They also don`t believe that is was Jesus who was on the cross of Calvary. They don`t believe in the trinity as we Christians do; Nor the deity of Jesus Christ. The Quran has some quotes in there that say to used violence against both Jews and Christians. So you see my friend there is quite a bit that you have to educate yourself on.

Tin-Man's picture
@AB Re: "So you see my

@AB Re: "So you see my friend there is quite a bit that you have to educate yourself on."

Well, by golly, AB. Thank you ever so kindly on that valuable religion lesson. I shall tuck that away for future use. As usual, however, you seem to have missed the point completely. (No big surprise there, though.) One, I did not say Christianity and Islam were alike. I simply said it is my understanding they share the same god. I am very well aware their teachings are vastly different. Still, I am always happy to learn something new. Secondly, the whole point of the post was simply to point out that you and other Christians are basically atheists to other religions, yet you never seem to care that atheists do not believe in all those other gods/religions. And you never seem to want to address why you do not believe in all those other religions. Thanks for playing, though. You can pick up your consolation prize on the way out the door.

bigbill's picture
I and my fellow Christians

I and my fellow Christians have one Lord not a bunch of Gods and he is personal ; Jesus Christ makes god become personal in our lives not Islam nor Buddha Jesus is my personal lord and Savior. Yes once you have Jesus as your god and the trinity you don`t have to go shopping around for other pretenders as false Gods. I am satisfied in One god manifest in 3 persons. Father Son and Holy spirit.

Tin-Man's picture
@AB Re: "...once you have

@AB Re: "...once you have Jesus as your god and the trinity you don`t have to go shopping around for other pretenders as false Gods."

Thank you once again, AB. You have proven my point quite nicely. ROFLMAO!

mykcob4's picture
No AG you have 3 gods and

No AG you have 3 gods and NONE of them are real.
Buddha never claimed to be a god.
AND BTW you are WAAAAY fucking off topic!

Aposteriori unum's picture
How do you know Zeus isn't

How do you know Zeus isn't real?

algebe's picture
@Agnostic believer: "And I

@Agnostic believer: "And I have to correct you the religion of Islam is no where like Christianity"

Rubbish. They're both hypocritical bloodstained cults. Of all the fearful things in the world, nothing scares me more than "religions of peace".

The only difference I can see is that the Christians mostly have better dress sense than the Muslims.

mykcob4's picture
You are LYING your ass off.

You are LYING your ass off. Where in the Quran does it instruct muslims to conduct violence against christian and jews! I'll tell you...NO-FUCKING-WHERE!
You have been consuming some ultra-christian propaganda!
I have close friends that are Ismaili and I have asked them about the call for violence in the Quran. There is NOTHING about calling for violence against christians or jews!

bigbill's picture
The devil is in the details

The devil is in the details how did they get the idea then to block Christians from the holy sites in and around Jerusalem if not from their holy book the Quran. The Quran is rife THROUGHOUT with calls to kill Christians and Jews. I can see you haven`t read it yourself but relied on word of mouth from so called friends of yours. You should study the crusades.

mykcob4's picture
@ AG

@ AG
Study the crusades? An invasion by the Pope to remove people from the so-called holy land and replace them with christians?!
And they are my friends goofball. I think an Imam is a far better expert on the Quran than YOU!
Still, you have not addressed the OP and are FAR off topic from the thread.
Testimony is invalid as proof without proper corroboration.

Salman Durrani's picture
mykcob4, Quran does say that.

mykcob4, Quran does say that.

However, only towards those Christians and Jews who do not pay the Jizya tax ( a tax specifically for People of the Book i.e., Christians and Jews ):

"Fight those who do not believe in Allah or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allah and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth from those who were given the Scripture - [fight] until they give the jizyah willingly while they are humbled. " ( Quran, 9:29 )

Here, " those who were given the scripture " refers to Christians and Jews.

mykcob4's picture

1) Paying a tax is nothing like murdering people.
2) "Those who were given the scripture" actually refers to muslims that don't obey the Quran, not christians and jews as you suggest.
And all this shit is OFF TOPIC. Look at the OP!

Salman Durrani's picture


1) This isn't a usual tax. Islam encourages to forcefully conquer Christians and Jews when possible, and impose this Jizya on them. JIZYA IS ONLY IMPOSED ON CHRISTIANS AND JEWS.

2) Violent force is to be implemented when Christians and Jews refuse to pay the tax. That includes murdering them.

3) The purpose of Jizya tax is to humiliate and belittle Christians and Jews.

4) "Those who were given the scripture" EXPLICITLY refers to Christians and Jews. This is agreed by virtually all Muslim scholars.

You can confirm all this by reading the popular tafasirs ( commentaries ) of the Quran, and you will find there, explained in detail, that it is talking about Christians and Jews, that it is to belittle and humiliate them, and of the use of violence if they refuse to do so.

mykcob4's picture
I don't know who your Quran

I don't know who your Quran experts are but they don't jive with the Imam that I know. I'll take his word over yours. He doesn't have a political agenda. I think that you have been consuming racist anti-islamic christian hate-mongering propaganda.

Salman Durrani's picture
Here is an excerpt taken (

Here is an excerpt taken ( for the verse in question ) from the abridged edition of Ibn-Katheer tafseer, by Dar-us-Salam publication, easily regarded by Muslims as one of the best and most popular tafaseer for the Quran:


The Order to fight People of the Scriptures until They give the Jizyah
Allah said,

﴿قَـتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ عَن يَدٍ وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ ﴾
(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.) Therefore, when People of the Scriptures disbelieved in Muhammad , they had no beneficial faith in any Messenger or what the Messengers brought. Rather, they followed their religions because this conformed with their ideas, lusts and the ways of their forefathers, not because they are Allah's Law and religion. Had they been true believers in their religions, that faith would have directed them to believe in Muhammad , because all Prophets gave the good news of Muhammad's advent and commanded them to obey and follow him. Yet when he was sent, they disbelieved in him, even though he is the mightiest of all Messengers. Therefore, they do not follow the religion of earlier Prophets because these religions came from Allah, but because these suit their desires and lusts. Therefore, their claimed faith in an earlier Prophet will not benefit them because they disbelieved in the master, the mightiest, the last and most perfect of all Prophets . Hence Allah's statement,

﴿قَـتِلُواْ الَّذِينَ لاَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِاللَّهِ وَلاَ بِالْيَوْمِ الاٌّخِرِ وَلاَ يُحَرِّمُونَ مَا حَرَّمَ اللَّهُ وَرَسُولُهُ وَلاَ يَدِينُونَ دِينَ الْحَقِّ مِنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ﴾
(Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth among the People of the Scripture,) This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah's religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims' control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination. The Messenger sent his intent to various Arab areas around Al-Madinah to gather forces, and he collected an army of thirty thousand. Some people from Al-Madinah and some hypocrites, in and around it, lagged behind, for that year was a year of drought and intense heat. The Messenger of Allah marched, heading towards Ash-Sham to fight the Romans until he reached Tabuk, where he set camp for about twenty days next to its water resources. He then prayed to Allah for a decision and went back to Al-Madinah because it was a hard year and the people were weak, as we will mention, Allah willing.

Paying Jizyah is a Sign of Kufr and Disgrace
Allah said,

﴿حَتَّى يُعْطُواْ الْجِزْيَةَ﴾
(until they pay the Jizyah), if they do not choose to embrace Islam,

﴿عَن يَدٍ﴾
(with willing submission), in defeat and subservience,

﴿وَهُمْ صَـغِرُونَ﴾
(and feel themselves subdued.), disgraced, humiliated and belittled. Therefore, Muslims are not allowed to honor the people of Dhimmah or elevate them above Muslims, for they are miserable, disgraced and humiliated. Muslim recorded from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said,

«لَا تَبْدَءُوا الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَارَى بِالسَّلَامِ، وَإِذَا لَقِيتُمْ أَحَدَهُمْ فِي طَرِيقٍ فَاضْطَرُّوهُ إِلَى أَضْيَقِه»
(Do not initiate the Salam to the Jews and Christians, and if you meet any of them in a road, force them to its narrowest alley.) This is why the Leader of the faithful `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, demanded his well-known conditions be met by the Christians, these conditions that ensured their continued humiliation, degradation and disgrace. The scholars of Hadith narrated from `Abdur-Rahman bin Ghanm Al-Ash`ari that he said, "I recorded for `Umar bin Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, the terms of the treaty of peace he conducted with the Christians of Ash-Sham: `In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful. This is a document to the servant of Allah `Umar, the Leader of the faithful, from the Christians of such and such city. When you (Muslims) came to us we requested safety for ourselves, children, property and followers of our religion. We made a condition on ourselves that we will neither erect in our areas a monastery, church, or a sanctuary for a monk, nor restore any place of worship that needs restoration nor use any of them for the purpose of enmity against Muslims. We will not prevent any Muslim from resting in our churches whether they come by day or night, and we will open the doors ﴿of our houses of worship﴾ for the wayfarer and passerby. Those Muslims who come as guests, will enjoy boarding and food for three days. We will not allow a spy against Muslims into our churches and homes or hide deceit ﴿or betrayal﴾ against Muslims. We will not teach our children the Qur'an, publicize practices of Shirk, invite anyone to Shirk or prevent any of our fellows from embracing Islam, if they choose to do so. We will respect Muslims, move from the places we sit in if they choose to sit in them. We will not imitate their clothing, caps, turbans, sandals, hairstyles, speech, nicknames and title names, or ride on saddles, hang swords on the shoulders, collect weapons of any kind or carry these weapons. We will not encrypt our stamps in Arabic, or sell liquor. We will have the front of our hair cut, wear our customary clothes wherever we are, wear belts around our waist, refrain from erecting crosses on the outside of our churches and demonstrating them and our books in public in Muslim fairways and markets. We will not sound the bells in our churches, except discretely, or raise our voices while reciting our holy books inside our churches in the presence of Muslims, nor raise our voices ﴿with prayer﴾ at our funerals, or light torches in funeral processions in the fairways of Muslims, or their markets. We will not bury our dead next to Muslim dead, or buy servants who were captured by Muslims. We will be guides for Muslims and refrain from breaching their privacy in their homes.' When I gave this document to `Umar, he added to it, `We will not beat any Muslim. These are the conditions that we set against ourselves and followers of our religion in return for safety and protection. If we break any of these promises that we set for your benefit against ourselves, then our Dhimmah (promise of protection) is broken and you are allowed to do with us what you are allowed of people of defiance and rebellion.'''


mykcob4's picture

Jibberish and just one person's interpretation that is agenda driven. There is nothing in the Quran that is specific about christians or jews! Ask any credible islamic cleric.
Oh, and BTW I really appreciate that you aided AG in derailing the thread! Thanks a lot, asshole!
The OP was about the fallacy of testimony, not whether the christians and muslims want to annihilate each other!
AG is a troll and you just abetted his troll agenda! Fucking christians!

Salman Durrani's picture
And here is a link for the

And here is a link for the commentary I quoted:

Salman Durrani's picture


Here's another credible classical exegesis for the verse:

This is Tafsir al-Jalalayn.

And here is Wikipedia's article explaining what "people of the book" refers to:


And Ibn-Katheer tafsir isn't just an some person's opinion. It is derived from al-Tabari's exegesis, arguably the most thorough exegesis of the Quran in Islamic history.

Note that I never got any of this information from Christians, as you think. I am not, and never was, a Christian. I'm an ex-Muslim, born in a Muslim family, and I live in a Muslim country. I've read Quran in it's original Arabic, and read several best regarded english translations, commentaries, and hadith while and after I was a Muslim. There is not a single commentary I have come across from any sect of Muslim which makes the claim you are making.

So, out of interest, under what credible Muslim scholars or commentaries exactly are you making the claim that this verse isn't talking about Jews and Christians?

mykcob4's picture

Again a misinterpretation. Also, there is no validity in a WikiLeaks reference. Anyone can edit modify and or post what they believe to be true. I'll trust an Imam who has studied all his life not politically motivated websites.
It's clear that you WANT to very much believe that islam has an agenda to persecute christians and jews and that is a directive of the Quran. That is the same sort of distorted thinking by radical clerics and white supremacist.
It just isn't true.

Salman Durrani's picture
( Sorry for the much late

( Sorry for the much late reply, but I've been busy in studies )

So let's get this straight... Ibn Katheer, who is regarded as the father of classical Islam, is dead wrong about this verse.

Al-Jalalayn, another scholar held is great credibility and respect by Muslims themselves, is also completely wrong.

Wikipedia is wrong on this matter too.

BUT your personal Imam can't be wrong? You sound more religious than many religious people.

Also, you didn't provide any sources at all to prove your point. I gave 3, all of which all easily credible. And I can give dozens more.

Sky Pilot's picture
You should brush up on the

agnostic believer,

You should brush up on the biblical fairy tale. On Judgment Day if you haven't done the right things your butt is going to be roasted.

As it says in Revelation 20:11-15 (KJV) =

"11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

Did you notice that the fairy tale doesn't say that your faith will save your carcass? It's strictly works on Judgment Day. Now go break a donkey's neck.

bigbill's picture
Well its through faith that

Well its through faith that you are saved but your rewards are on what virtues you performed in this life. Why such animus in your closing sentence. IT is a combination of your faith and your works. But for Salvation it is your faith alone; Are you confessing the Lord jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. That is what determines if your saved. Then if you display the virtues in this life, life kindness, justice temperance fortitude self control. This is what is the determining factor.

Sapporo's picture
The New Testament says that

The New Testament says that Jesus is the savior of all mankind. It does not make sense to 1) make an innocent person take the rap for your crime, then 2) later accept the alleged sacrifice else also be punished.

bigbill's picture
No Jesus isn`t the savior of

No Jesus isn`t the savior of all mankind only for those who call him lord. You see this is the major misunderstanding here But Jesus made it very clear and saint Paul reiterates this that Jesus is only Savior for those who call upon his name. Not all people are children of GOD but they also are the children of the diabolical one. You could see this on how there life plays out, what decisions they make. And so on how they treat there fellow man. Mankind is covered with the stain of sin those who call him Lord and follow his teachings are saved, they are the real Christians. Jesus is not asking Christians to take the rap for there sin but offers us through the cross to live saved lives. Now if a person doesn`t adhere to the Christian message then that person is at fault. You can`t blame Jesus Christ or saint Paul. This is the Christian message.

David Killens's picture
AB, that is just the "mafia

AB, that is just the "mafia boss" argument Dillahunty likes to explain.

Do you accept that this god is a loving and caring entity? If so, then why is this god's message so freaking convoluted and difficult to realize? Does this god want people to suffer for eternity? I spent over 50 years of my life (on my knees in sincere prayer) asking for a revelation or sign or something, and since all the evidence indicated that a god does not exist, I finally understood that I had to be an atheist. So by your understanding, I am doomed to an eternity of suffering.

To state that since I do not embrace Christianity is my fault ... I say BS.

Sapporo's picture
"For as in Adam all die, even

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." - 1 Corinthians 15:22

"We trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." - 1 Timothy 4:10

"He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world." - 1 John 2:2

curtisabass's picture
Read Richard Carrier's "On

Read Richard Carrier's "On the Historicity of Jesus, why we might have reason to doubt". It summarily puts the Christian delusion to bed.


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