I want to find pro atheism anti Bible arguments

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Tin-Man's picture
@Elemen Re: "I think,

@Elemen Re: "I think, without afterlife there is no reason to believe it's necessary to be good to others..."

...*cringing*... Oh-holy-shit.... Please... PLEASE... promise you will never give up whatever warped religion you profess to follow. For if you are unable to comprehend how fucked up and utterly disturbing your statement is to those of us who do not believe in any god(s), then BY ALL MEANS keep yourself hooked to that chain as long as possible. Holy Christ on a greased pogo stick!... *shudder*...

Elemenalenal's picture
Do you not understand that I

Do you not understand that I'm talking about extremes here that can arise if one starts to philosophize? Examples like that are all around in atheistic people, and there really is no solution to it (you can give me objective reason why it's necessary in a world without greater judgment, if one thinks selfishness provides better fruit for him/her, I will shut up then). At least a dumb christian you can hit with stuff from Bible (provided you know it yourself well enough).

David Killens's picture


"Do you not understand that I'm talking about extremes here that can arise if one starts to philosophize? Examples like that are all around in atheistic people, and there really is no solution to it"

I have been around this forum long enough to witness many theists make the same claim, that if there was no threat of hell,murder, rape, and other atrocities would be accepted. Never have I heard his from ANY atheist.

YOU and other theists are the ones with murder and other crimes at the forefront of your minds.

And when we see a barking mad theist with zero concern for their fellow man make such utterances, almost all atheists desire for that theist to be held in check by the fear of hell.

There is a solution, and it has been explained many times in this thread. But you have a wall of denial and are ignoring what others are stating.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ DK

@ DK

"There is a solution, and it has been explained many times in this thread. But you have a wall of denial and are ignoring what others are stating."

10,000 agrees to you, David

Elemenalenal's picture
Christianity you say condones

Christianity you say condones these crimes when the commandments clearly order not to, and to love people around you as you love yourself? Are you talking about Bible or how people have abused it over time? I think I made it quite clear that most christians do not represent what Bible is teaching, are you aware of that? People are shitty and sinful no matter what their beliefs are, but we're not talking about people here so much as they do not represent principles.

Cognostic's picture
@Elemental: RE: "The

@Elemental: RE: "The commandments clearly order not to, and to love people around you as you love yourself? "

What the fuck are you talking about?
1. “I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have any strange gods before Me.”
2. “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.”
3. “Remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.”
4. “Honor thy father and mother.” (NOT LOVE!)
5. “Thou shalt not kill.” (NOTHING ABOUT LOVING ANYONE.)
6. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.” (CLEARLY ONE SHOULD NOT LOVE HIS OR HER NEIGHBOR.)
7. “Thou shalt not steal.” (Nothing about love yet.)
8. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.”
9. "“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s wife.” (DON'T LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AGAIN. GOD SAID IT TWICE, HE MUST MEAN IT.)
10. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s goods.”

What Commandments are you looking at? Be very very careful. You have already quoted the Old Testament. Perhaps you should give us your list of cherry picked commandments. I know of commandments that tell you to kill witches, and strike dead anyone who talks out against your stupid belief. I know commandments that tell you to hate your family and to leave them, abandon them. and think not of tomorrow. You want to compare cherry picked passages? Or is it just that you have never read the Bible and have no idea what your bigoted Jesus or murdering god actually commands.

Elemenalenal's picture
You listed all the

You listed all the commandments and say that there is more of them, even though Bible clearly lists ten? What is your point here?
To sum up and keep up to date, what you clearly hate but we live in the present, I will quote New Testament "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength. This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. There is no commandment greater than these." You can't cherry pick what Bible describes as the greatest rules to follow.
If you still think that stuff from Old Testament is what Bible says to modern day people, then I'm just simply going to say that that is wrong.

Cognostic's picture
@Elemenalenal: TEN

@Elemenalenal: TEN COMMANDMENTS: You have no idea what you are talking about. 613 commandments - There are also 2 different sets in the New Testament and Neither set has 10.
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › 613_commandments

Of the 613 there are 248 Positive Commandments (do's) and 365 Negative Commandments (do not's).

Jesus also makes many more commandments, as does god, throughout the bible.

Okay, So you cherry picked your way through Matthew. Here is the million dollar question......


Sheldon's picture
Elemenalenal "At least a

Elemenalenal "At least a dumb christian you can hit with stuff from Bible (provided you know it yourself well enough)."

Like it's unequivocal endorsements of slavery you mean? Even by Jesus. How about mass indiscriminate murder, and genocide, or it's endorsement of sex trafficking virginal female prisoners form ethnic cleansing, which it also endorses of course.

I'll take secular morality any day of the week, thank you. I can reason and empathise that these things are barbaric and create unimaginable and wholly unnecessary suffering, all the religious apologists I have seen presented with such facts can manage is either outright and mendacious denial, or hypocritical tap dancing.

Sheldon's picture


You're simply repeating the same unevidenced claims, and ignoring questions.

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?

If the answer is none then your objection to subjective human morality is entirely moot, as all human morality is subjective.

Your claim that subjective secular morality is (more) dangerous than subjective religious beliefs is one that requires evidence of course. Not only have you failed to do this, but the facts roundly refute your premise, see my comments above about secular democracies, and Christian morals were not invented by christianity, they preceded it. You have also failed to address the cruel and barbaric nature of the bible and the deity it describes. Is is objectively moral to torture a newborn baby to death, or torture people forever after they die, or commit and encourage genocide and ethnic cleansing, or endorse rapine and sex trafficking women and girls taken as prisoners? How about slavery as endorsed in the bible, even by Jesus is that objectively moral?

You are demanding that others justify their morality but refusing to reciprocate. Fairly typical of most theists who espouse this facile belief that they can't recognise behaviours like rape and murder as harmful and therefore immoral, unless archaic superstition claims divine diktat says so, that's absurd to me.

I don't need to justify my atheism, as disbelief is a standard position I take on all claims for which no objective evidence can be demonstrated. Its theists who exhibit bias in their beliefs, unless you can cite some beliefs you hold that form no part of your religious beliefs, and for which you can demonstrate no objective evidence.

Parenthetically you have also failed to offer any examples of objectively moral actions, with objective evidence of why they are so....

Why is it wrong to rape someone, or murder someone? Do even know?

Elemenalenal's picture
What is it with atheists

What is it with atheists expecting proof of God, when there is none and every theist agrees on it?

Ethics christians must follow are the commandments, not everything that has happened in the history or even what God has done. He is a completely different entity and learning from that would be an absurd if God has given our own guides to live by. If one follows these 10 rules, what kind of sadistic child torturer you think would come of it?
Slavery is very functional today as well, just that owners don't take care of our lives and we can chose them as we please.

David Killens's picture


"Slavery is very functional today as well, just that owners don't take care of our lives and we can chose them as we please."

I wish to avoid any misunderstanding, but do you condone slavery?

Elemenalenal's picture
I'm saying it is still

I'm saying it is still existing today in a very similar manner, we just don't call it like that. (check ancient Egypt).

David Killens's picture


Please respond, I am still waiting for an answer. Just a yes or no please, no tap-dancing.

Do you condone slavery?

Elemenalenal's picture
Jup, and so would you, if you

Jup, and so would you, if you weren't biased by your stereotypes of it and look at already mentioned example of ancient Egypt. It can (and has and in a more modernly twisted way still does) work as a very ethical system of your ''boss'' just taking care of workers well-being. Sure it makes worker lower status, but that kind of shit is all around anyway, often just not official.
See, people have hierarchy and to be happy and live a fulfilled life doesn't mean one must be at the top.
I have a certain feeling though that you are going to ignore everything I said after ''jup'' :D

Tin-Man's picture
Re: The response of Elem when

Re: The response of Elem when asked if he condones slavery - "Jup, and so would you, if you weren't biased by your stereotypes of it..."

Well, alrighty then. So, we have determined thus far that: 1. Elem is totally incapable of determining right from wrong without the aid of some ancient book about an imaginary and morally corupt Sky Daddy. And, 2. Elem is happy to condone/justify slavery.

Yep, can't get much more Christian than that, I suppose... *shudder*...

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TM

@ TM

I do not think that Elem actually understands the concept of "owning another human being". To be able to buy, sell, whip, breed, sell the offspring and inflict capital punishment without the benefit of law or rights.

In other words TM...you are quite right, a typical 'christian'.

Elemenalenal's picture
I view slavery as a system

I view slavery as a system that can completely include today's moral and ethical standards, pretty much just like ancient Egypt did (I believe you still haven't looked into it), how are you so biased? :D As I said before, working class now days is very close to what could be called slavery (if talking about the bad stuff, workers have to take a lot of shit and be cool with it from their bosses, modern day unethical properties) except that we can choose our "owners" and instead of housing and food we get money.

CyberLN's picture
Elemenalenal, you wrote, “..

Elemenalenal, you wrote, “...we can choose...”

That’s the key! Choice! Slavery denies the slave choice.

Elemenalenal's picture
Yes, so does prison. As it

Yes, so does prison. As it has been in history, if you were in big enough debt, you could become a slave in exchange for it (principle very similar as prison - crime -> redeeming). Talking about prisons, American ones have penal labor completely legal as a form of punishment, is that unethical and immoral?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Elemenal

@ Elemenal

I view slavery as a system that can completely include today's moral and ethical standards,

Then you are an amoral scumbag.

Elemenalenal's picture
"Penal labor in the United

"Penal labor in the United States. Penal labor in the United States, including a form of slavery or involuntary servitude, is explicitly allowed by the 13th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. This form of legal slavery is only allowed when used as punishment for committing a crime." So is it not possible for slavery to be acceptable in today's moral standards? (I'm not saying everything in modern world is up to moral standards, but this is a system close to what I imagined)

Elemenalenal's picture
Alright, it's difficult to

Alright, it's difficult to have a conversation where criticism comes before understanding. Let me get really really middle school like clear now, I'm saying that an atheist who decides he wants to justify some action we could call immoral or unethical (let's say selfish for less misunderstanding), he could do so. Christian could not.

Christian can think of other shit like slavery if it doesn't go against the 10 commandments (or just loving people around like you do yourself). I think there could be a way, maybe not, maybe Foucault could figure it out, but if there is no ethical and humane approach to it, then I don't condone it at all. To maybe say what seems to me banal right now, yes throughout most of the history, slavery has been a horrible thing and nothing like that should ever be allowed.

As I predicted, no one here seems interested in anything after my "jup" or just doesn't support philosophical approach (but it actually seems like not many here do) :D

CyberLN's picture
Elemenalenal, you are using

Elemenalenal, you are using the word “slavery” incorrectly.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Elemanal

@ Elemanal

I have read your replies and still find them amoral. I have had words with other apologists who defend the condoning of slavery, like you, by pretending it is not the outright ownership of another human being. That is slavery.

By defending that concept you render yourself unable to opine about anything moral or ethical.

Don't try and take the intellectual high ground when your morals are rooted in pig shit.

Elemenalenal's picture
So does the 13th amendment

So does the 13th amendment also tickle your morality nerve, or is it maybe not so horrible for prisoners to work?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Ellie

@ Ellie

I don't live in the US, other countries that are civilised and not mired in evangelistic faux morality have strict laws banning slavery. Mine included.
If you go to prison in my country and work...you get paid. As you do in the whole of Europe, Canada and NZ, as well as Australia which all have strict laws on the ownership of human beings, i.e its a crime.

So dust off your ignorance and realise that your condoning of ownership of another human being as property is amoral except in your rather twisted imaginings.

Cognostic's picture
@Elemental: "I CALL

@Elemental: "I CALL BULLSHIT!!!" " Christian could not JUSTIFY SOME ACTION WE COULD CALL IMMORAL." This is the most delusional statement made on this site this week. Congratulations. (Flying Fucking Finger of Faith Awarded!!!)

1. Do not suffer a witch to live
2. Man shall not lie with man as he does with a woman.
3. Hate your mother, father, sister, brother, aunt, uncle and cousin to be a disciple.
4. Take your unruly kid to the edge of town and stone him to death.
5. If your eye offends thee, pluck it out.
6. If your hand offends thee, cut it off.
7. A woman raped must marry her raper.
8. Slavery is A-OK with God, and Jesus - "Slaves follow your masters, even the assholes." You disagree with slavery and you are disagreeing with your god.

This list goes on and on and on. You have made one of the most insane assertions I have ever heard.

Elemenalenal's picture
No, as pretty much all that

No, as pretty much all that talked about the matter, Bible is so very complicated that some of you agreed that it's a stupid thing for God to give humans, as it allows many interpretations and what no. Key phrase is that it's complicated, like, for example, Mark Rothko's works. One would call it the dumbest of art there is, just plain color fields, but people who know what modern art is really talking about would call it one of the most powerful there is. See, there are interpretations, but those who know art clearly see one thing he was actually aiming for and misunderstanding is quite impossible.
Key thing here is that it's complicated (even though I started to explain that kind of shit somewhere else in this discussion) and does not come clear if you haven't studied it and haven't tried to understand what it is believers find there (intelligent ones, again, not fucking sects or even Catholics :D).
Because I'm not here to explain all the stuff and how there are really no contradictions in Bible if you get the metaphors (metaphors, as i feel is another word you could bitch about, are not so much interpretable in context, as modern literature I think proves very well) and understand that people have lived differently throughout ages that even child sacrifice has been a norm, or, if doctors patient doesn't get well his arm is cut off or things like it, of course old testament is brutal af, that doesn't mean God made it so, people were just living as such, that's why New Testament (I mean, how is the new, the update ignored when talking about what is actual today?) is here to provide more modern and acceptable methods for today's standards and bla bla bla, I simpled it down to what is absolutely clear for someone who has studied and tried to understand even the tiniest bit what goes before we do any kind of action - commandments and the principle to love those around you.
100% that and that only, citing other stuff from old testament to provide an example of what was norm in older times to show what horrible things Bible teaches us is a bit absurd. Old Testament (there is apparent reason it's called "Old" you know, that's not an accident like I think you might believe) describes human psychology and nature (somewhat history as well), of course, methods have changed. Carl Jung would know how to explain it better, I think he's one of those very few people who have understood human nature almost completely, but you can, of course, call bullshit on all of his teachings as well, if you dislike cherry picking.
So do you maybe now understand, that if an action today goes against commandments and loving your neighbor it's not acceptable? If it's one must love people around, what kind of immorality is that you imagine?

You know, I'm starting to fear the next thing I'm going to get is how Bible says you must love just your literal neighbor instead of everyone around :D

Nyarlathotep's picture
Yes, another Christian who

Yes, another Christian who seems to be saying everything we've been told by the other Christians is wrong, and only they know how to interpret the bible correctly; yet paradoxically claims it is objective! Nothing new to see here.


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