Yay the labeling game. Why? Cus its fun.
I believe strongly good old penn says in this video if you are an agnostic and someone asks you if there is a god and you say I don't know then your answer to the question do you believe in god? Must be no therefore you are an athiest.
Anyway have fun :)
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The old knowledge versus belief game.
Everyone is agnostic, some people just don't realize it. No one KNOWS if there is a god or conversely not.
Everyone is also either atheist or theist, They either believe or they don't.
If Penn says that, then he's wrong. If you find an honest theist, they will admit that they do not know, but that they believe. They are often confused by the agnostic label and won't often apply it to themselves. But it is entirely possible to be an agnostic theist, matter of fact, all theists are.
@New Skeptic
ag·nos·tic
/aɡˈnästik/
noun
1.
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
Theists are not agnostic by definition.
@Nyarlothotep
That is an error in the encyclopedia. The definition obviously destroys that.
Edit: But the real issue seems to be that we can not agree on the definition.
Well at least you're willing to tackle contradiction head on. Historically that has not been the case here with other theists.
@Nyarlathotep
Depending on the definition you choose I acknowledge one can define one as agnostic - theist.
The term must be defined before application. Some definitions of agnostic would render the term agnostic theist a contradiction as I’ve shown.
So pending definition I am an agnostic-theist and should one desire to use a definition of the term agnostic which renders the structure of the term
agnostic-theist a contradiction then I am not an agnostic-theist.
Which definition do you use for theist? Now I’m curious.
I don't argue the definition of the word atheist (or theist, or related terms). In my experience, people who do typically have ulterior motives.
"I don't argue the definition of the word atheist (or theist, or related terms). In my experience, people who do typically have ulterior motives."
I couldn't agree more, and I also see something of a trend in contemporary apologetics for dishonestly using semantics in this way as an attempt to try and reverse the burden of proof.
noun
a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God **or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
Where are you getting this definition, everything after the asterisks is not in the Oxford English dictionary. You have also claimed elsewhere not to know if a deity exists, but to believe a deity does exist. By definition that is an agnostic theist, without of course that extra text that seems to be missing from all the dictionaries I can find.
Maybe link the dictionary for us?
Here is the OED https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/agnostic
Either a person believes in god or gods or they do not. This is a single proposition and it has no middle ground. Either A or B. (They can "CLAIM" neither faith or non-faith but this says nothing about belief.)
"Theists are not agnostic by definition." Then explain Pascal's Wager.
You could not be more wrong. People are religious all over the planet, whether or not God or gods exist, just so they can get to heaven or avoid hell. Religious threats of hell cause it to turn out that way,.
"I believe strongly good old penn says in this video if you are an agnostic and someone asks you if there is a god and you say I don't know then your answer to the question do you believe in god? Must be no therefore you are an athiest."
I'm inclined to agree, though it is not impossible to be an agnostic and a theist it's a bizarre reasoning process. Agnosticism is the belief that nothing is known or can be known about the nature or existence of a deity. This would be true if that deity were defined in an unfalsifiable way of course. now don't know hwy anyone would claim to believe a claim they admit they can know nothing about.
Agnosticism and atheism are of course not mutually exclusive, they are in fact rationally consistent.
I have no idea why so many theists view agnosticism as some sort of mid point between theism and atheism, but it is not. Though it may be a milestone for theists before relinquishing their belief, to first accept they don't know a deity exists.
Unless you're catholicray of course, then you proudly shout that you believe something exists, but don't know of any evidence to support the belief.
@Sheldon
All I can say is thank you for validly representing my position. Thank you.
Edit: Clarification required
“Unless you're catholicray of course, then you proudly shout that you believe something exists, but don't know of any evidence to support the belief.”
Straw man identified
I have plenty of evidence to support the belief
I have no evidence to support the knowledge
"Straw man identified
I have plenty of evidence to support the belief"
It's not a strawman, it's an objective observation based on you failing to offer anything. making empty claims you have it doesn't mean anything.
"I have no evidence to support the knowledge
You have demonstrated no evidence at all, and evidence & knowledge are of course synonymous. So this is just more dishonest semantics.
Evidence
noun
the available body of ***facts or information*** indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
Knowledge
noun
***facts, information,*** and skills acquired through experience or education; the theoretical or practical understanding of a subject.
Knowledge is what is acquired by gathering and validating evidence. To claim evidence that doesn't support knowledge is irrational. The same as professing belief without any knowledge or evidence to support it.
@SHELDON: I'm inclined to agree, though it is not impossible to be an agnostic and a theist it's a bizarre reasoning process.
I don't think reasoning goes into it. That's the point. "With faith, all things are possible. " We certainly agree that religious based faith is BIZARRE.
If you are agnostic are you an atheist?
Yes and No. Agnostic deals with knowledge. Atheism deals with belief. Knowledge is a subset of belief. To really know something, you believe it. Most skeptics will assert nothing is believed 100% Belief is allocated to the degree of reliable evidence. The gnostic Christian knows and experiences (believes they experience) their god.
Why the Labeling Game:
Originally Huxly came up with the term agnostic as a philosophical construct that asserted "We can not know with 100% accuracy that god of gods exist."
HUXLY: "That it is wrong for a man to say he is certain of the objective truth of a proposition unless he can provide evidence which logically justifies that certainty. This is what agnosticism asserts and in my opinion, is all that is essential to agnosticism. ["Christianity and Agnosticism," 1889]"
The breakdown looks like this....
Gnostic - A person that (HAS KNOWLEDGE THAT) knows god or gods exist.
Agnostic - A person that does not (HAVE KNOWLEDGE) know whether god or gods exist.
Theist = A person who believes god or gods exist.
Atheist - A person who does not believe god or gods exist.
Anti-theist - (Strong Atheist) a person who asserts there is no god or gods.
Agnostic - theist - A theist who does not know if God or gods are real or existent but who chooses to believe in religion anyway. (Pascal's Wager would lead to this kind of believer.) I believe to avoid hell or gain heaven, just in case.
Agnostic - atheist - The primary reason for my atheism is the fact that there is no knowledge (nothing can be known) about god or gods. This includes the majority of atheists, At the same time there are many other reasons for being atheist. According to the church you are born an atheist, in original sin, separated from god. This is an implicit atheist. After being exposed to religious ideas and rejecting them, the person would be an explicit atheist.
The only real confusing thing is "WHY A PERSON IS AN ATHEIST." On what is their rejection of god claims based? Generally speaking atheists are skeptics and reject other things like rebirth, pyramid power, ancient aliens and such.
At the very same time there are Atheists that believe ancient aliens created the human race. That pyramids or crystals have the power to influence your life or heal you. They may believe in Astrology but not god or gods. In short; there are atheists who are not very skeptical. There are also angry atheists who reject God anger. They feel they have been lied to. They don't need good reasons and generally do not have them. They have a bad experience in their past and as far as they are concerned religion and god are bullshit, evil, a con game. etc/ (While I might agree, their atheism is an anger reaction and mine would be a logical presentation of facts supported with evidence.)
Cus its fun?
Not at all. Cus we are human beings. We believe things for different reasons. People invent words, just like Penn was trying to do and like Huxley did, to try and explain how it is they see the world. That is what religions do. That is what philosophies do. That is what science does. That is what atheists do when people want to know why they are an atheist, or when people want to describe them.
http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=6487
@Cog
Thanks for covering this. As I was scrolling down, I was getting ready to type up a whole thing.
Fingers = saved.
@AXLE: "I don't know then your answer to the question do you believe in god? Must be no therefore you are an atheist."
SOMETHING TO CONSIDER:
1. Is there anything at all that can actually be KNOWN about God or gods? Have you ever met a theist that can give credible evidence for any knowledge they have about god or gods? (I think not. There is no evidence for God or gods and that lack of evidence is the same for the Atheist and the Christian.)
2. Therefore; everyone is agnostic. No one KNOWS a damn thing about God or gods. Based on a complete lack of good evidence, I see the anti-theist position, God or gods do not exist, as being stronger than the theist position. "Lack of evidence IS evidence of absence."
3. It does not follow that all agnostics are atheists. People who do not know, everyone, can certainly still be religious.
You are very intelligent but if you do not actively believe in something doesnt that make you an athiest to everything. If you are a Christian are you an athiest to Hindu or paganism? Here's another question what's the honest difference between atheism nihilism and agnosticism I thought that the past two were just two different types of atheists I'm probably wrong but reading these replies are helpful.
Axle: Actively of passively it is still belief.
Do you believe a god exists. Yes or No. There is no middle ground. You may believe sometimes and not believe at other times but at any point in time you either believe or you do not believe. (Belief is not knowledge.)
If I ask you, "Do you believe in a god." and you respond "I don't know." You have not responded to the question. The question is about "BELIEF." The response is a "KNOWLEDGE" claim. "I don't know, could be belief or non-belief." I don't know but I think/believe so. I don't know but I don't think/believe so. The respondent is avoiding the question.
This is why many atheists regard Agnostics as wishy-washy, spineless people unwilling to take a position. "I am agnostic" is simply an assertion that the person does not want to examine their position or take a side.
atheism vs nihilism
Atheism is about God or gods. Nihilism about everything else and asserts the belief that life is meaningless and nothing in the world has a real existence.. Most atheists I know are not Nihilists. Their lives are full of meaning. Atheism is a position on a single claim and nothing more. Atheists do not believe in god or gods. That's it. Nothing more. Nihilists agree and then extend their rejection of
god and gods to the world itself. Atheists - gods don't matter. Nihilists - nothing matters.
There are no celestial deities of any kind in this solar system. That is a fact. The idea that such creatures exist is simply superstition that has no basis in reality. They are simply a debris sandwich cooked up by con men to gain power and status over their more ignorant buddies and to enrich themselves from other people's labor. The biblical Moses character was the prime example of such a con man.
And even if there was such a creature in this solar system, so what? Since there is zero evidence of it there is no evidence that it exists so it is imaginary, as if it doesn't exist. So for all practical purposes it doesn't exist. And if it did exist would it be any manifestation of the thousands of imaginary deities con men have cooked up over the eons?
All of the discussion about gods, atheists, theists, agnostics is simply empty talk.
The bottom line: I refuse to worship some idiot's imaginary deity and have no interest in worshiping a real one (it doesn't exist).
@Sheldon
New Oxford American Dictionary
Attachments
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@Sheldon
Results in the following google search
Attachments
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Sounds like this extra text is peculiar to dictionaries created and published in the US. neither the Oxford nor Cambridge dictionaries have that caveat. It is a fact that atheism and agnosticism are not mutually exclusive as I consider myself to be an atheist, but also an agnostic where any deity is defined in an unfalsifiable way.
Theism and atheism are positions on a single belief, whereas agnosticism is an epistemological statement about knowledge.
@catholicray: Interesting.
Oxford Living Dictionary: A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/agnostic
Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary: a person who believes that it is not possible to know whether God exists or not. https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/a...
Mirriam Webser - I think this clears it up.
Definition of agnostic (Entry 1 of 2)
1 : a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable
broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2 : a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
political agnostics
AGNOSTIC - DEFINITION: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (such as God) is unknown and probably unknowable.
AGNOSTIC - COMMON USAGE: a person who is unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
political agnostics. (It is true that the term is used this way. It may be incorrect but it is used this way.)
Dictionaries do not actually define words as we have been told. They simply tell us the usage. It is true that the world agnostic is used by people who do not want to commit to a belief statement.
CONSIDER THE FOLLOWING.
I stated this above but will repeat it. If you ask a person, "Do you believe in a god?" And the person responds, "I am agnostic." They have not responded to the question. The question is about "belief" and their answer was about "knowledge." The question was avoided. This is exactly why Huxly invented the term.
Jinkies, it's etymology time!
gnos·tic
/ˈnästik/
adjective
1.
relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge.
Etymology:
The Greek "gnosis", being the word root of "gnostos" means "knowledge"
From the greek gnostos ("known") to the greek "gnostikos" (adv: "knowing")
From there, to the latin gignoskein ("know") to the late 16th century "gnostic"
Remember, from before, that when we add an A to the beginning of them thar words, it reverses the meaning to be a lack of that thing.
Theist V Athiest
Sexual V Asexual
Typical V Atypical
SO...if gnostic is relating to knowledge then agnostic relates to the lack of knowledge.
Saying you are agnostic simply means "I...don't...know"
LAWD, I loves me some etymology. Clears these nasty little misunderstandings right up, doesn't it?
You can be a gnostic or agnostic theist and you can be a gnostic or agnostic atheist. It is nothing more than a measure of your own confidence in your belief system.
You'll find that lots and lots of atheists (myself included) are agnostic atheists. Certainly not all, though.