Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Log in or create an account to join the discussions on the Atheist Republic forums.
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
FREE E-BOOKS
Get the book "Why There Is No God" and one more book for FREE!
Sign up below for the Atheist Republic Newsletter to get the books.
Record Your Message!
Record your voice here for it to be aired on the Atheist Republic Voicemails Podcast.
Send us your views and opinions, your personal stories, messages of support, comments on recent news, or any comments you would like to share about your part of the world.
Note : By clicking record you are allowing us to broadcast your message on any of our platforms.
Affiliate Disclaimer
Links to atheist related books, shirts and movies and other atheism related products are affiliate links.
All proceeds will go to keeping the Atheist Republic website up and running; providing resources, advocacy, community tools and encouragement to atheists all over the world.
I agree, Logic. However, I don't think civilians need a gun for anything. Now I am not calling for banning guns but I would like it to happen. You could get rid of the 300 million plus guns in the US by making them illegal. That alone would end most of this nonsense.
If a law that banned all persons from having a firearm except for their job (and the jobs would be listed) making the violation a class "A" felony. Even if someone actually had a gun they wouldn't let many people know. Automatically stores wouldn't carry them. Gun shops would disappear. Gun shows would never happen. It would very difficult to ever get hold of a gun. As the years passed guns would completely disappear from the civilian world, even the criminal world. And the law would have an automatic life in prison without parole penalty. That is exactly what I'd like to see. It doesn't come close to violating the 2nd Amendment because a well-regulated militia would certainly have firearms.
@mykcob4
Here, at least you are using logical arguments that have rational thinking, even if I don't agree totally.
Question: As an ex-marine (22 years!) how many gun incidents did you experience (domestic violence, temper tantrums, murder, etc.) from your military associations - all of whom obviously had guns or access to guns - in all of your time in the military? (Not talking about using them in combat or your jobs, in the line of duty... but, in violation of the responsible use of those firearms?)
Curious..
@DragonBonz
Actually quite a few.
I can't name them all but I will give a few examples.
1) On duty, a Marine accidentally shot himself while guarding the Armory.
2) I once had guard duty guarding a barracks that housed Vietnam Vets awaiting medical discharge. One Vet executed another because he thought that man had stolen his pot stash.
3) On a Marine airbase that I was stationed at an aviation electrician murdered his wife in base housing because he suspected her of cheating on him when he had been deployed.
Just to let you know something. Marines are not issued firearms or ammunition unless they are training or on a specific duty which requires a weapon. However, the number of nonmilitary deaths and or injuries due to firearms is on par with the civilian population.
BTW I am NOT an "ex-Marine", I am an inactive Marine. Once a Marine, always a Marine!
"Once a Marine, always a Marine!" So sorry man... and again, thank you. I've got a friend, also a staunch atheist, who was Navy for 13 years - love his stories, and he has so many!
And... may I ask... how many Marine's were killed or maimed or otherwise had issues from simple violence, without guns?
Over a twenty two year experience with people taught how to kill with their hands or other means, do you feel that the number of violent assaults or fights was more or less than society at large? Did teaching everyone the same things prevent others from pushing buttons or cause them to use these newly learned tools even more?
I do not know the answers here - my point is that over 22 years active duty - which was worse, mental instability and violence that resulted - either from guns or not - or the guns themselves?
For the record - I don't have any emotional attachment to my guns (other than a few have sentimental value) and I'd have no issues selling them all and being gun free - though I'd still own a tazer or something - and alarms (my family/house was robbed a few years ago - terrible feeling).
@Mykcob4
I agree with what you wrote here. I love the idea of a almost completely gun free culture through strict regulation. Like what Japan achieved, like what Australia is working towards, etc.
Hard to imagine "the genie being put back in the bottle" so to say here in the US, that many foreign observers would describe as gun crazed or obsessed. Perhaps a path of more an more smart gun control and regulation can happen.
As a futurist, I wonder if some new tech might be the deciding factor. A gun combined with certain tech may make it obvious to everyone more gun control is badly needed. Who knows.
You do bring up good points about the additional effects of a total gun ban, perhaps a start would be a demand all guns are registered, licensed and carry liability coverage? A lot like cars? No one is going to sell a gun to someone that should not have them if they could get sued for millions.
Agreed Logic but Slavery was wrong and the Constitution had to be amended. White people believed and it was ingrained into their culture that they were superior to all the other races and that they had a right to slaves and could do whatever they wanted with or to them. And we are STILL trying to put the genie back in the bottle on that issue. But it was and is the right thing to do.
@LogicForTW and mykcob4
I'm for regulation, no doubt about it. It takes a driver's license to drive a car or motorcycle - some degree of aptitude and understanding and proof you get the rules. Guns should require as much or more of the same - this makes sense. I do not believe guns should be a right, to me they should be a privilege.
As to getting rid of guns altogether... I'm not sure how I feel to be fair. I own guns, have owned and shot guns since I was probably around seven or eight years old. We hunted, shot for fun, did black powder shooting and I even built guns - great deal of fun actually. I haven't shot my guns for many years recreationally or hunting - only about seven years ago when we got our first conceal carry permits (my wife and I).
I think my issue isn't really about guns, to be honest. It's about several other things - like freedom, my ability to live my life however I like as long as it doesn't infringe upon others, in the US my ability to exercise my freedoms without others telling me how to live my life and what choices I can make or not.
Yeah, I get it - there are some things that should be regulated and some things that laws should set boundaries around - not many of these are simple issues really, in my mind, however.
Imagine a gun sitting on a table, fully loaded - and for fun let's make it an automatic machine gun - full blown military grade bad ass gun. Put the safety on and - let it sit there legally for a hundred years. The gun will not cause any issues, it will not kill anyone, it will not go off (well, unless the environment sets it off by heat or something), it is just a lump of metal and brass and gunpowder, etc.
The gun isn't the problem - never has been.
The problem is crazy people owning a gun... most of them on medications or worse yet - on religion.
Which is potentially more dangerous - our machine gun sitting on the table or a theocratic society with stones and all the rope and matches they want?
I think some folks miss the point... would a beautiful world full of peace and love and happiness and joy and no religion and no war, full of puppies and polite people be a great thing? Maybe... but how do we get there?
If it means we give power to government to outlaw anything but what the majority approves of or anything that offends or scares or disagrees with anyone, that would eliminate pretty much everything but classical music, white robes, burkas (so we all look the same), and missionary sex between heterosexuals looking to conceive - probably with enough money to have babies (approved by the government) and over the age of, what? Twenty five because sex under twenty five would be considered morally wrong - especially outside of marriage and for only pleasure!
See? The rabbit hole is deep here... to me, the issue is not guns - any more than abortion is about killing babies (it's not) - the issue is about what we are willing to allow the government to tell us we can do with the life we are given and how much freedom we are willing to sell for control of our own lives.
I don't want to live next to crazy people with religious approval to kill infidels who own guns - automatics fully loaded - or vest bombs or baseball bats or knives or anything - but I would rather risk that than have the government come into my home and make a check list of what I can possess or collect or practice.
I get it.. really, and I don't have the answers to most of what is discussed here - only perspectives and a lot of living and experience in life to draw from. I'm always learning and find myself changing my opinions more as I get older and more information becomes available about many things but that's what's so fun about getting older - you have more to draw from in life and experiences with which to come to conclusions - well, sometimes anyway.
@ Dragon Bonz
I absolutely DISAGREE!
The old guns don't kill people people do. You can say that about everything.
Leave a loaded gun on the table and it won't be there for a hundred years. It's basically an IED waiting to be set off. I contend that most people are crazy especially about and around guns. Pussies get brave. Bullies become more obnoxious. Nervous people get scared. People see threats that aren't even there. Have you ever watched a bunch of preteen boys just milling around? They are looking for trouble. Well, that is what a full-grown redneck acts like around guns or alcohol or drugs.
@mykcob4
LOL... have you ever used guns for recreation? Have you ever hunted or had to shoot a rabid fox, snake or anything? Your logic is off and you are wrong. (*Comment: I viewed your profile and see you were in USMC for 22 years - so, obviously you've at least shot a gun and are familiar with them.)
Using your logic you would have to make automobiles illegal because people drive them when they are distraught or angry or sad or suicidal. People get killed in cars so much more than by guns. People get injured and property damaged much more by automobile accidents than by guns. My brother in law was killed in a car accident - so let's make cars illegal.
You are talking about regulating things because of human abuse of said potential item. You cannot regulate humans or the human condition based on what you feel is dangerous or not. That idea is exactly what collectivists who also want to control your religion and beliefs want.
I'd love to outlaw bullies... then the pussies won't have to get brave and use anything to even the odds. However, an abused woman bullied by a man would still find a nice poison somewhere, I'd venture to say.
Yes, nervous people get scared, pussies get tired of being bullied, sad people want to commit suicide and certainly, I agree, crazy people (religious especially) see threats that aren't even there but all of these are exactly evidence that supports my argument that you cannot fix the problem by taking away potentially dangerous things from these people - what probably needs to be done is finding a way to take these people away from potentially dangerous things.
I have stuck myself with hooks fishing so many times - if my father would have said "I'll handle baiting the hook for you, you don't need to know how to do that" later in life I would not have been able to fish, not having the ability to bait my own hook because it was deemed too dangerous.
How many times have you cut yourself on - paper? With a knife? Have you ever been in a car accident? Have you ever been in a fight? Has anyone ever hurt you emotionally?
Have you ever been shot?
Rednecks and gansta's - well, well, well... sure, again - you can talk about groups of people who are ignorant who do stupid things but if you make laws of society based on the lowest common denominator, we all loose.
Again, I'll state that my issue here isn't really even with guns - I like them, have used them, enjoy shooting them and don't feel threatened by them or a need to stop others from owning them - as a gun user and familiar. My issue is more about letting government decide what is best or right for me. THAT is what I don't want to see eroded - my personal rights and freedoms.
~ Seatbelts in cars - my choice, not governments - in my opinion.
~ Motorcycle helmets - my choice, not governments, in my opinion.
~ Smoking - my choice, not governments (I don't smoke, never have by the way - I don't believe smokers should be allowed to do it anywhere they like or young people should be allowed to smoke or that people who do smoke, knowing the risks, should be allowed to sue the manufactorers because of their personal choices or that society should have to foot the medical bills, etc. but these are other topics)
~ Who I have sex with - homosexual or heterosexual or whatever - or what kind of sex I have (oral sex is illegal in many states... lol) not anyone else's business, especially governments (I'm married, heterosexual, if you are curious)
~ MANDATORY health care or else I'll be fined - legalized extortion, in my opinion.
~ What religion I have or do not have - nobody's business, especially governments.
~ Freedom of speech - censorship should be illegal in the US.
And the list goes on... I believe if you feel government or anyone else has a responsibility to protect us from crazy people the solution isn't about giving government the power to take our freedom away and put us in smaller boxes but that, instead, the issue should be about society, the people, not putting up with crazy people and getting a legal system that addresses this. Rather than putting people who smoke pot in jail for life, put people who drive drunk more than once or people who threaten others or whatever in jail or mental health care facilities... people who are a threat to society, not just themselves.
Even those ideas are flawed - but not nearly as flawed as your idea of letting the government tell us what we can or cannot do as responsible citizens in a legal environment which allows our free expression.
Your anger is misplaced... perhaps what you are saying is you should not have guns because you are afraid of what you would do with one being as angry and cynical as you are (especially being an ex-marine)? Maybe you have a violent streak that makes gun ownership a thing you recognize would not be healthy for you - and that is exactly what I'm talking about. Guns are not for everyone and should not be for everyone - many things in life should not be for everyone, but what gives you the high and holy right to tell me what is for me or others? Next, you'll be telling me what version of Islam I have to follow or else you'll stone me in public (Just joking of course, I know you are an atheist, but the point is still the same).
See?
At least acknowledge that there is some validity to my points - even though you are passionate about this gun possession issue and adamant about taking mine away for, what? Your own comfort and peace of mind?
*Note added later... went to view your profile and saw you are an ex-marine... thank you for your service to our country.
@mykcob4
You said: "The old guns don't kill people people do. You can say that about everything."
To which I reply - "Uhm, yep. You are correct and that statement is correct, for the most part." Which part of what I said or of that logic is not true?
You said: "I contend that most people are crazy especially about and around guns. Pussies get brave. Bullies become more obnoxious. Nervous people get scared. People see threats that aren't even there."
In reply: "Exactly my argument - people kill people, do stupid things, etc. not guns. Regulate "stupid" - give it a try, good luck."
You said: "Have you ever watched a bunch of preteen boys just milling around? They are looking for trouble."
To which I reply - Yes, I have two sons and a daughter (not just boys) - they are not "looking for trouble," they are looking for something to do. Just because kids are bored doesn't mean they will pick up a loaded gun and shoot it at each other, especially if they are taught what a gun is, how to use it responsibly and when to leave it alone.
You said: "Well, that is what a full-grown redneck acts like around guns or alcohol or drugs."
To which I reply - having lived in the South (for way too long) I've seen my share of redneck's and most of them are deer hunting, squirrel hunting, fishing, beer and sports fans - the stereotype holds. Few of them shoot people or even threaten to do so... they do stupid shit, no doubt about it - including their fucking Civil War idiocy... but, that is taught to them, perpetuated by ignorance, and kept alive by traditions - not guns. Rednecks usually know how to use guns well and do so responsibly - even if while irresponsibly drinking beer at the same time on occassion (stupid idiots).
Your arguments don't hold here though... not even a little.
@DragonBonz
It seems at the core of your argument is oppressive, popularity driven government regulation and control. I wonder how people in Japan feel about gun regulation there. Do they feel oppressed? Honestly I am not sure, I imagine there is at least a few that do when it comes to Japan's ultra tight regulation. But I imagine an enormous proportion of them do not, and just shake their heads when they hear about all the gun related violence in the US. Are they sheep? A certain forum regular that lived in Japan for a while may be able to chime in on this.
Me personally I am happy with the amount of regulation that is on some guns like fully automatic machine guns. It seems to be working quite well. Build on that system. Make it even better.
Me personally, I am math guy, a logic and reasoning guy. Part of the reason I enjoy gun debate is because of the numbers and reasoning. I am honestly pretty far removed from debate as I have little skin in the debate. I do not own guns, and I am mostly very shielded from all forms of gun violence. And as bad as gun violence is in the US, if you take reasonable steps to avoid activity and association with people that results in gun violence the odds are extremely low it will ever effect me beyond a possible friend or family member that does not avoid activity and association with guns.
As I said before, I do not like guns, they are tools designed for easy killing, and I feel in the US there is little reason for most all civilians to have them. Just like bombs like C4. I also understand the need for protecting rights as much as possible, but when it comes to a tool that can inflict so much harm, leaning a bit more on the side of tighter regulation only makes sense to me.
@LogicforTW: I wonder how people in Japan feel about gun regulation there.
I never heard ordinary Japanese folk talk about it much. Guns just aren't part of their culture. And every Japanese I've ever spoken to has an absolute horror of violence and killing. Just the word "kill" is almost taboo.
Guns aren't illegal, just very difficult to get. The cops all carry them, but they rarely use them in anger. Most shootings by cops are suicides. The gangsters (yakuza) often have smuggled guns, but they seem to use them mainly for drive-by intimidation, with windows the primary victims. For those guys, a gun seems to be a status symbol, like a Rolex or Porsche, rather than a weapon. Another thing about organized crime in Japan is that they really hate disorganized crime. Muggings are very rare.
The Japanese media portray the US as a gun-crazed killing zone, especially when Japanese are victims. A case that caused a lot of ire a few years back was the shooting death of a Japanese college kid studying in the US (Florida I think). He was trying to find someone's house and knocked on the wrong door. The occupant shot him dead. In another case back in the 1980s, a honeymoon couple were mugged in L.A., and the wife was shot dead. There was a huge surge of anti-American sentiment, and the media milked the story for all it was worth, until it was discovered that the husband had put a large life policy on his bride and hired the mugger to kill her.
Japan has lots of hunters, but they have to go through some very rigorous and expensive checks to get a license to own a hunting rifle. Hunters are useful community members in rural areas, where people are frequently attacked by boars and bears. Monkeys can also be dangerous. And every so often some idiot in a zoo or circus leaves the tiger cage unlocked. Japanese hunters live for those times.
I've never heard of a gun massacre in Japan, but mass murders and serial killings do occur. The weapons of choice are large kitchen knives. Mass killings tend to occur in the hot months. Some loon with devils in his brain suddenly runs amok on the street slashing people at random. Because people tend to freeze or panic, these incidents can result in multiple fatalities.
The best-known mass murders in Japan were the sarin gas attacks by Aum Shinrikyo. But AFAIK the worst body count in modern Japan happened in the mid-1980, when a drug-addled homeless guy threw a bucket of gasoline into a crowded bus waiting at a bus stop. He then lit a newspaper and threw that in. There was also a mass-murder by a JAL pilot, who deliberately nose-dived his plane into Tokyo Bay.
So I guess if you have the will to kill, you can always find a weapon, whether a knife, a bucket of gasoline, or a jet liner. Perhaps if guns were easier to buy Japan's murder rate would be higher. I don't know. My impression is that the Japanese have high levels of self-control and government control, but that they can be pushed only so far. When they lose control they lose it all the way. You don't want to be around a Japanese riot.
One more factor about Japan is the death penalty. If you kill someone in Japan, they'll hang you. Well they'll hang somebody.
Was hoping you would reply. Thanks for your thoughtful response.
Obviously people that want to kill can do so w/o a gun. But to me that only further illustrates the problem of powerful weapons of war being readily available to just about anyone. Japan's frequency rate of large numbers of people being killed by a single person is much much lower than in the US. Taking on only rare and extreme cases like a homeless man using gasoline at a bus stop, or a crazed suicidal airplane pilot.
@mykcob4
Sorry I always post such long posts - just, always been my nature, can't help it. I've tried brevity, just feels like sex without a happy ending most of the time.
Wanted to add one more point...
What if we had education curriculums that helped people, children especially, learn self-control, accountability, reward and consequence, anger management, relationships and how to deal with them, what freedom is and how to allow others to express their freedom even if you don't agree with it, applied ethics (not that book crap or religious morality), etc.
To me the productive answer is not to take away guns but to remove the reasons guns would be used for anything but recreational activity. Teach people how to live together in harmony and accept others... as much as possible.
However, even this has never proved successful. People know murder is wrong - but they still kill (with all kinds of weapons and tools), people know speeding is wrong but they still speed, people know drugs are illegal but they still use them, people know religion is a freedom all should be able to practice, but they still judge others and violently oppose that freedom in everyone but themselves. People know that free speech is legal and Constitutional in the US but anyone who talks in opposition to the majority will find themselves fired or targets of other attrocities. People should be able to be who and how they want to be in America, yet there are still people who are beaten or killed because of who and how they are sexually.
Laws don't fix the issues... there is something more primal at source here and I, for one, just don't see taking away one thing like guns will fix it.
I've got three children, my first child we purchased all of the corner protectors, toilet lid closers, cabinet closers... etc. to protect him from bumping or hurting himself. My last two children we just taught to be careful, stay out, don't get hurt or "see? You should have been more careful." Making laws to only sell round tables because kids may bump their heads on corners would be silly... again, in my opinion.
What if there were laws that said "If you are a Muslim you cannot own a gun or bomb making materials." Or "If you are a Christian you cannot hold any job where you oversee a diverse group of more than twenty." Or any teacher in any public school must take a vow of neutrality and if they teach, talk about, pray, or even mention their myths to children there is a mandatory 3 month jail sentence."
Anyway, again... not sustainable, in my opinion. Some people may think these would be great ideas but really, they are just more power to government to put people into smaller boxes. In my opinion.
Just saying.
@ Dragon
I all your long posts I don't find one argument that supports anyone having a gun. We don't let people have hand grenades as the only things that are used for is mass human destruction.
You have a problem with regulation of just about everything. You think it is an individual choice but it really isn't. You complained about seatbelts.
Well here is the breakdown of why seatbelts are required.
You drive a car that has to be insured in case you have an accident and you cause injury or damage to other people and things. You have to have insurance full coverage if you have a loan to pay for that car because technically you don't own it but have assumed full responsibility for that car. If you are injured in a car accident someone has to pay for your medical expenses namely an insurance company. To minimize that cost the law requires seatbelts which have proven to be effective to that end.
There are some regulations that are over legislation but for the most part, there is a sound reason for those laws.
I didn't say anything about regulating a group of people. I just gave an example of how people are immature and irresponsible.
@mykcob4
i.e. seatbelts...
Yep, agree - if you owe money on the car, you should have to have comprehensive insurance. Yep, I agree that if you CHOOSE not to wear your seatbelts your insurance rates should be higher. However, I do not agree that government should have a say in any of that.
The insurance companies - sure. The lenders - sure.
And, yes... I am saying that I want government more OUT of my personal decisions than in them. I am not for more control by government, I am for less control - of my personal choices, by any government.
I never made an argument for having guns in any of my arguments - I only made comments showing where your logic telling me where you have the right to take my rights away was flawed.
Why should people be allowed to own guns - because the constitution says so. Period, end of discussion. Change the Constitution (again, a road we may want to seriously rethink) or let it stand.
Why else should people be allowed to have guns? Hunting, recreational activity (skeet shooting, turkey shoots, etc.)
Why else should people be allowed to have guns? Because as long as criminals have them, I should be able to have them. If you can guarantee no criminals possess guns, I'm all for legal possession being limited or removed as well.
I really don't care, to be honest, about guns - again, I'll keep saying this. I am more afraid of this issue being used to give a majority more power over my personal choices and rights.
Take all the guns away - ok. No issue. But make sure they are all gone... not just mine.
I also do not agree that possession of a gun should lock people up for a lifetime... especially, our generation who has had legal ownership rights and legally possess our firearms. Maybe in a few decades, when you win this argument and everyone is allowed no guns you could impose a fee and/or a jail sentence (except for collectors who have licenses and register guns, etc. - maybe).
I have no doubt the fearful will win... and then, what's next? You go ahead and take away guns, watch what the crazy people do then... and if you think you can eliminate all of the crazy things crazy people will do through laws and rules, you are not thinking clearly, in my opinion.
@Dragon
What you don't seem to realize is this issue isn't about you or me personally. It's about guns, not cars, or anything else.
Guns are just dangerous. They are designed to be just that dangerous. They are violent and have no other use but to be violent. The whole culture around and about guns is based on violence. It's about being violent or the fear of violence.
No one actually hunts and if one hunts for sport they have a screw loose. You can be in nature without killing something.
There is no economic advantage for guns. It's cheaper to shop at a store than to hunt for food...legally! The bumper-sticker mentality slogan "If you outlaw guns only criminals will have them" is just wrong. The fact is guns would be much harder to get. That fact is born out by the nations that outlaw guns and or heavily regulate them.
As far as violence that occurs in the military active duty goes, statistically it is approximately the same as the civilian world with the same motives and the same results, although the military has stricter regulations on violence and harsher punishments.
Do you know why NCOs and Officers are issued sidearms? It's to enforce orders NOT for self-protection.
In my 22 plus years of active duty, I only had a weapon when my job called for it. As a rule, I never had in my possession a firearm on a daily basis. In training, or in combat, on specific duty, but at no other time. It just wasn't necessary. If the nation adopted the military attitude about firearms there would be far fewer accidents and murders. In fact, all the murders that occurred by or on military personnel that I know of happened due to civilian laws i.e. a man murdering his wife because he had a "civilian" firearm in a "civilian" capacity. The DoD is not big on its personnel being armed without a specific reason. On the Drill Field, I was never armed unless I was at the firing range and the recruits only had ammo when we went to the range. Every round was accounted for.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/195325/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-w... - Yep, you are correct, handguns killed more people than other weapons in US.
I wonder though - take away the handguns and will murder numbers stop or will the statistics for other methods, like knives, just be increased. I mean, if people are crazy enough to kill someone with a gun - aren't they just crazy enough to kill someone?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/251877/murder-victims-in-the-us-by-r... - by race.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/633670/reported-murder-victims-by-ag... - murders in India... no weapons pointed out but I thought this was an interesting statistic.
I think it's also a missed point when discussing gun violence in the US when the conversation doesn't revolve around gangs and the problem the US has, especially large cities like Chicago, Atlanta, West Coast and East Coast cities with high concentrations of gangs and how these affect the statistics.
The folks around here do hunt, own guns, etc. but if you want violence from guns, head over to Richmond, some parts of the bigger communities and cities... where the violence is predominately gang related.
Fix gangs... you fix a lot of this problem.
Go ahead - get rid of all guns. I'm all for it. But if you think this will eliminate violence or gangs or murder or anything else, you are sadly mistaken. Fact is, if you look up statistics from places like Switzerland your argument doesn't hold water - but then again, there aren't the gangs in Switzerland we have here - just the guns.
It's people and the propensity of certain groups of people who are causing this issue... taking away their guns I'm sure will fix the gun problem - absolutely. Take 'em all away. I'm just not so sure this will fix any kind of "violence" you say you are interested in solving or fixing - in my opinion, and it's only an opinion, you'll simply get a different kind of problem because murderers will murder, gangs will kill, criminals will commit crime, the weapons will change but I think the reasons and motives and results will remain.
If we don't get to the root cause of the problems people have, we won't fix the real problems and as long as we focus on the symptoms, we'll never cure the disease.
Additional interesting statistics about leading causes of death in America:
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/leading-causes-of-death.htm
~ Heart disease: 633,842
• Cancer: 595,930
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 155,041
• Accidents (unintentional injuries): 146,571
• Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 140,323
• Alzheimer’s disease: 110,561
• Diabetes: 79,535
• Influenza and pneumonia: 57,062
• Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 49,959
• Intentional self-harm (suicide): 44,193
I find that accidents - causing nearly 150,000 deaths annually in the US, are a huge issue - let's set up laws to make accidents illegal because these are ten times more likely to cause death than guns.
Intentional self harm (suicide) is almost three times more likely to be an issue... (even if by gun, but the argument has been made here that its the violence of guns, not guns themselves, that is the issue.)... let's outlaw suicide.
I know I'm being a shit... however, keeping this issue in perspective, heart disease would be a much more statistically relevant conversation.
Dragon interjecting other issues is just NOt addressing what we are talking about. Yes, all those other causes of death should be addressed but they have ZERO to do with the gun issue. It is deflecting instead of staying on topic.
Also, the NRA has successfully lobbied to prevent any federal agency to produce numbers or statistics on gun violence. So anything that you produce as US statistics on gun violence is severely flawed.
One thing that is NOT flawed is that every gun injury or death involves a gun. Take away the gun and no injury or death by a gun.
Myk
Take away the person pulling the trigger and you have no injury or death. At least concede this point that the problem isn't only guns, it's the wrong people with guns... and I'll shut up.
My statistics are relevant - because they show the issue in contrast to other issues that, quite frankly, would be more productive to fix. Also, these statistics help to show the comparative nature of the gun issue when taken in context of death in the US as a whole - statistically, gun issues do not even fall in the top fifteen.
Folks who want their way, who want their perspectives and desires adhered to and agreed upon - like religious people who cannot see any view but their own - don't have a right to say "You don't agree with me so you are wrong." I've pointed out simple logic... made relevant points, even conceded your points at times but you are so blind by your politics on this that you can't even consider the other side of the argument as viable at all, in any context.
People may be violent, people may kill. Fix that. This is your issue. You just want to make it harder for them. Good for you - me too... just not like you do.
You say things like "nobody hunts and hunting is stupid because... grocery store." Half the South and much of the Midwest hunts - hell, I bet Texas is full of hunters (in fact, I lived there and I know it is) What you should say is "I don't want to hunt and hunting is not something I approve of or will ever do." Why? Because saying anything else is not your right... you don't get to tell others what they should do or not with their lives if it's legal, just because you don't agree with it. That has been my point all along.
I have a vegan neighbor who is violently opposed to killing any animal or fish or anything - drinking fucking milk - because of her ridiculously strict beliefs - she would literally stand in front of a cow to keep it from giving milk - you kill cows to eat them, right? I am sure she could say "that's just stupid" like you did about people who hunt for their food but you will allow farms who raise chickens and cows and pigs in horrendous conditions do the killing for you and call that more humane so you can buy your meat in a store? Cheaper?
Come on - you seem much more intelligent than that argument.
I love motorcycles - have been putting up with this same attitude for a lifetime from ignorant people who do not like motorcycles for whatever reason - they want them outlawed... even for me. My choices are not your choices, quit trying to impose your self-righteous views on me. I would think as an atheist you would agree.
In the motorcycle world we have a saying (it works for atheism also...): "For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible." Maybe we are at that juncture on this topic and we should just both agree to disagree on the principle here.
Guns are bad - there, I said it. You win. But, only in the hands of people who do bad things with them. You can't make me change my mind on that because it's true, even if you can't see it.
Would it be better if no guns existed - yup, no guns, no bombs, no poison gas, no knives for killing (Samurai swords, etc.), no bows and arrows, slingshots, etc. Sure... world would be a better place. The world would be better without religion also... but that's not going to change any time soon either.
How about no words that hurt people or insult? That would make me feel better also... You're good at slinging and sometimes it sticks. you've made me feel like shit a couple times in this discussion - but, I'm a big boy and have thick skin so, no issue. We don't have to make it illegal. (*side-note - this group and this forum are not for the faint of heart or weak of mind, is it? I almost quit on here several times and I've only been here a week! You guys are tough on folks, really.)
I'll concede to you - because you won't give an inch and I'm tired of the topic actually. But, in truth, I just don't think you have the capacity to think any more deeply on this than your own bias and it's really a waste of intelligent conversation, and time, for both of us.
Look Dragon
I am an expert with all sorts of firearms. I can kill a moving target at a considerable distance. I actually know how to hunt. BTW almost all people that say they hunt don't know how to hunt.
I know what is like to kill someone. I've done it. I even know what being beat up is like, what being mugged is like, being jumped by a gang of people is like, being stabbed is like, being shot is like (3 times).
BTW I have owned motorcycles, quite a few.
And still, I say no one needs a gun. Just because I want one is not a good enough reason. Sometimes people just have to grow up. Everything that gives you pleasure is not a right. There is a greater responsibility.
All this bullshit justification is just childish bullshit. Arming teachers...blah blah blah...BULLSHIT! Turning schools into fortresses...BULLSHIT! All this hyperbole and propaganda buzz words and bumper-sticker mentality sloganeering...BULLSHIT.
Just look how irresponsible the NRA surrogates have been toward the Parker high school survivors. Luara Ingraham, Rick Santorum, Ted Nugent. Attacking the victims? Really? They want to have the right to own and operate a military weapon but don't think anyone has a right to voice an opinion? Fucking BULLSHIT!
The pro-gun side is out of control and has been for over 5 decades.
The one common denominator in every gun tragedy is a gun. That is just a fact. Everything else is just spin. The whining about "OOOH the guberment is running my wittle life with too much contwol!" Oh fucking bullshit. This is the freest nation in the world by far! If you want to hun, hunt with a camera and really hunt. Don't just leave corn out all year and then one day show up and say I found some wild deer.
Killing something or someone doesn't make anyone a "man". I am sick of the pseudo-macho bullshit, the people that watch John Wayne movies and think that having a gun makes them like the characters he played. BTW John Watne was total coward. He wouldn't join up to fight in WWII. He never served this nation in any capacity never was a member of the armed forces. Actually don't get me started on John Wane, he is beside the point.
No one needs a fucking gun. You think that I am just being stubborn, but I am just taking a stand against cowards and childish assholes, wannabes and never-will-bes!
I have absolutely NOTHING against you personally, and probably never will. I'd probably like you personally, but I don't like guns or the avocation for guns.
It is often said that in the US, the number of deaths caused by guns and cars are similar, as though that demonstrates that guns are safe or at least to make some point about how it would be nonsensical to ban one but not the other.
The average person spends about 100 minutes a day in a car. Try spending 100 minutes a day firing a gun and see where that gets you!
Pages