Moral Actions

59 posts / 0 new

Tue, 01/17/2017 - 01:47

(Reply to #31) #32

Nyarlathotep

valiya s sajjad - As i mentioned earlier, that's communism compromised for practical/political reasons. Ideologically, communism is not possible without atheism because communism stems from materialism.

And there is our no true Scotsman.

Tue, 01/10/2017 - 12:26

(Reply to #32) #33

MCDennis

What makes you think you need

What makes you think you need religion to accomplish any of these?

Tue, 01/10/2017 - 15:53

(Reply to #33) #34

chimp3

You do not answer my question

Valiya : You do not answer my question . You answer with things forbidden. Religion is good at forbidding things.

Let me give examples: Caring for the needy. Does not require religion. Being kind to your elders. Does not require religion.

Wed, 01/11/2017 - 03:47

(Reply to #34) #35

Valiya

Hi Chimp

This is the point I was trying to raise in my first post. To you the points I raised don’t count as moral issues. Only things like ‘caring of the needy’ and such things are moral for you. That’s why you need to tell me what is your standard for morality?

Wed, 01/11/2017 - 03:53

(Reply to #35) #36

chimp3

Sorry valiya, but I do not

Sorry valiya, but I do not need to do that. I can reason morally without you or your religion.

Wed, 01/11/2017 - 06:06

(Reply to #36) #37

Valiya

Hi chimp...

For you to pass this judgement sans any reason or logic, you need not have raised the question in the first place. You could have simply made this statement and felt smug about it.

Thu, 01/12/2017 - 01:50

(Reply to #37) #38

chimp3

Valiya: The premise of this

Valiya: The premise of this thread is a simple question. No one has yet to answer .

Fri, 02/24/2017 - 02:13

(Reply to #38) #39

Sky Pilot

Regarding the alcohol, would

Regarding the alcohol, would you refuse to drink wine with Allah?

In the Sunan Abudawud hadiths = "Narrated AbuSa'id (al-Khudri): The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If any Muslim clothes a Muslim when he is naked, Allah will clothe him with some green garments of paradise; if any Muslim feeds a Muslim when he is hungry, Allah will feed him with some of the fruits of paradise; and if any Muslim gives a Muslim drink when he is thirsty, Allah will give him some of the pure wine which is sealed to drink. (Book #9, Hadith #1678)"

And regarding the water purification comments, don't forget that Mohammed had the people drink a camel urine and camel milk cocktail.

Sahih Bukhari hadith = "Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of eight men from the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you should join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for nails which were heated and passed over their eyes, and whey were left in the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody provided them with water till they died (Abu Qilaba, a sub-narrator said, "They committed murder and theft and fought against Allah and His Apostle, and spread evil in the land.") (Book #52, Hadith #261)"

That sounds like a business opportunity for a new religiously approved health beverage.

Sat, 03/04/2017 - 14:26

(Reply to #39) #40

charvakheresy

1."No doing bad things to

1."No doing bad things to people who do bad to you"

Just by the way your prescribed religion conforms to the notion of an eye for an eye.....

2. "Not sitting at a table where alcohol is served"
So you are suggesting the catholic church is immoral as it serves wine.

3. "No dating"
In india there are these moral police that go around every valentines day beating up couples and harassing women if they are with their partners just because they like you believe in no dating. However the fact that they molest these women or cause severe grievous injury to both persons wasn't morally vacant to you however the act of actually displaying love and affection was..... curious

4. "No extra-marital sex, pre or post"
once again Islam doesn't seem to take the moral high ground here
a. Islam prescribes polyamorous relations where one man can marry four wives. if pre and post marital sex is immoral to you due to a a breach of trust between one man and one woman then legitimising it with marrying 3 other women does not make it moral. Morally it would still count as cheating
b. Would you per chance prescribe to the Sharia punishment for fornication or adultery i.e. stoning to death or lashes.... thats the morality brought by your religion...

I implore you, please do go on......

Tue, 01/10/2017 - 06:14

#41

Valiya

HI Cyber LN

Because left unto yourself dating may not seem immoral to you.

Tue, 01/10/2017 - 06:59

(Reply to #41) #42

CyberLN

That doesn't answer the

That doesn't answer the question at hand. Can someone arrive at that decision without religion as the driver?

Tue, 01/10/2017 - 07:58

#43

BAACKJD

"No extra-marital sex, pre or

"No extra-marital sex, pre or post"
"No dating"
"No dealing in interest, taking or giving"
"No doing bad things to people who do bad to you"
"Not sitting at a table where alcohol is served" and i can go on and on

Is this a joke?

Tue, 01/10/2017 - 11:59

#44

mykcob4

You can do anything without

You can do anything without religion. We do everything without a god in the first place. If someone says that they are moral because of a god, they are lying to you and themselves. Absolutely nothing is accomplished by religion. Even the things that are attributed to religion. Prejudice doesn't come from a god (since there is no god). It comes from prejudice people that profess a god.

Tue, 01/10/2017 - 13:20

#45

algebe

"Name one good or noble

"Name one good or noble action that can not be accomplished without religion."

Becoming an atheist

Tue, 01/10/2017 - 14:46

#46

watchman

Greetings Valiya .....

I've noted your occasional posts.... good to see you back again....

But just a point or two this time...... don't you consider that you are in danger of becoming a "Stereo-type" Moslem..... constrained ,restricted....rigid.....

It was not always so ..I think...

Your list ...
"No extra-marital sex, pre or post"
"No dating"
"No dealing in interest, taking or giving"
"No doing bad things to people who do bad to you"
"Not sitting at a table where alcohol is served" and i can go on and on"

.....seems to run counter to the spirit of other earlier Moslems....arguably freer .....

“Drink wine. This is life eternal. This is all that youth will give you. It is the season for wine, roses and drunken friends. Be happy for this moment. This moment is your life.”

or perhaps....

“It’s too bad if a heart lacks fire,
and is deprived of the light
of a heart ablaze.
The day on which you are
without passionate love
is the most wasted day of your life.”

or then again...

“How sad, a heart that
does not know how to love, that
does not know what it is to be drunk with love.
If you are not in love, how can you enjoy
the blinding light of the sun,
the soft light of the moon?”

Omar Khayam ...of course....and it appears that he too was berated in his own time....for he also writes......

“Oh threats of Hell and Hopes of Paradise!
One thing at least is certain - This Life flies;
One thing is certain and the rest is Lies -
The Flower that once has blown forever dies.”

and

“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”

And so you see...it seems your ,somewhat straightened "moral" view has not always been the norm....

Wed, 01/11/2017 - 03:52

(Reply to #46) #47

Valiya

Hi watchman… so long. Nice to

Hi watchman… so long. Nice to catch up with you again.

You said: “But just a point or two this time...... don't you consider that you are in danger of becoming a "Stereo-type" Moslem..... constrained ,restricted....rigid.....

It all depends on what your standard is in making these judgements? Based on what do you decide if something is moral or immoral?

You said: “.....seems to run counter to the spirit of other earlier Moslems....arguably freer .....”

Something is moral/immoral in Islam, only if the scriptures spell it out. Leave alone Khalil Ghibran, even if the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia says something that is not from the scriptures, it has no value in Islam. Period.

Tue, 01/10/2017 - 21:13

#48

chimp3

So far, not one moral act

So far, not one moral act that can not be accomplished without religion!

Wed, 01/11/2017 - 04:13

#49

Nyarlathotep

valiya s sajjad - Gay

valiya s sajjad - Gay marriages are illegal in Islam. Period. If you are bring excuses like natural tendencies and such factors, then what do you tell a person who has a strong desire to unite with a child?

What nonsense.

Wed, 01/11/2017 - 04:20

#50

chimp3

I smell red herring !

Wed, 01/11/2017 - 11:26

#51

BAACKJD

"then what do you tell a

"then what do you tell a person who has a strong desire to unite with a child?"

If they're a Muslim I'd probably tell them that Mohamed himself did it so from a religious standpoint it seems that their perversity has been sanctioned by their prophet.

You see, the beauty of secularism is that we don't require some ancient book to fall back on. The foundation of our morals are such things as compassion, empathy, legitimate debate and objective thought. These are all things that can be easily cleared away by your book when it's deemed necessary to do so. You use the message of ancient texts as a kind of bullseye that you have to land on. Anything can be made acceptable if the scriptures are successfully used to that end. So this notion that the Quran is an effective kind of anchor point is flawed. It's more of a magic staff that can be used as a tool of conquest, or whatever it's holder desires at the time.

You have to understand, you're going to have a difficult time finding common ground with free thinkers if you continue to cite this kind of stupid primitive dogma. No dating? No sitting at a table where alcohol is served? Give me a break.

And for the record, what keeps me from cheating on a spouse is respect, compassion and love. It's not fear of a supernatural reckoning. That kind of commitment is nothing more than a veneer. It would be entirely self serving. If if it's God serving, then it has nothing to do with your actual commitment to your spouse.

Thu, 01/12/2017 - 13:55

#52

Aisha Elle Walker

This is a dumb post. Next

This is a dumb post. Next please.

Thu, 01/12/2017 - 16:49

(Reply to #52) #53

BAACKJD

Which post?

Sun, 01/15/2017 - 03:21

#54

chimp3

The original question remains

The original question remains unanswered. This thread has been derailed by Valiya"s red herring "What is morality?". Christopher Hitchens stated that he asked "Name one good or noble action that can not be accomplished without religion" for decades and never received an answer. Looks like we are going to be waiting a long time also.

Sun, 01/15/2017 - 18:17

(Reply to #54) #55

algebe

"This thread has been

"This thread has been derailed by Valiya"s red herring "What is morality?".

I must share the blame for that. I went chasing after the red herring and got tangled up in an argument about Islam and Marxism.

In my defense, I did offer an answer to your original question. There is only one good and noble action that cannot be accomplished without religion, and that is the rejection of religion itself by becoming an atheist. It is good because it frees the believer from a web of lies and hate. It is noble because it requires courage in the face of prejudice and harassment from the religious majority.

Sun, 01/15/2017 - 10:38

#56

BAACKJD

I have heard compelling

I have heard compelling arguments that it's in fact religious groups that provide more assistance to such disadvantaged groups as the homeless than non believers do. I don't have any statistics to prove or disprove this.

That's all I've got.

Sun, 01/15/2017 - 11:15

(Reply to #56) #57

chimp3

That still does not answer my

That still does not answer my question. Thanks for input though.

Sun, 01/15/2017 - 19:55

#58

BAACKJD

I know. It's the best I

I know. It's the best I could do.

Thu, 02/23/2017 - 17:58

#59

Pitar

All good and noble acts are

All good and noble acts are accomplished outside religious causation. The basis lies in the fact that no one can prove religious cause.

Next.

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