Morality AGAIN!

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mykcob4's picture
Morality AGAIN!

I have read threads started by various people questioning where morality comes from. The faith in a god believers start threads with a baited question. The idea is to trap atheists into accepting that morality can only come from a christian god. They use revisionist history to prove their point.
They refer to the bible as the authority on morality. This is a false pretense.
They cite historical documents, cherry picking them, enhancing and embellishing them, to make it seem that all law, morality came from christianity. Again, a false pretense.
Comic books possess more morality than any bible I have ever read, and I have read a great many of them. The Codex Sinaiticus for one. Which happens to be the oldest bible ever found. Bibles are varied and different, rewritten and edited to fit a political narrative that the editing authority desired at the time. It's obvious that al bibles come from human imagination and nothing else. As science proves more and more about the real universe, the imagination changes and prompts an edit to try and keep the bible relevant.
Evolution prompted the "intelligent design" variation. Finding out the age of the Earth and the Universe, caused the bible believers to move the goal post again to throw out the concept of original time, replacing it with a wholly unreasonable definition.
Now there comes the old and yet reintroduced idea that all western civilization is based on christianity, and by default, the concept of morality and the basic law is also christian based. This is completely false.
Although the prevalence of christianity cannot be ignored, at the time of the American Revolution, "Free and Critical Thinkers" emerged To not only challenge christianity but to in fact dismiss it as flawed. These founders gave birth to law based on the freedom of the individual. This is not new. It comes from ancient Athenians who created a concept known to the world as "Hero." this prescribed that a mere mortal gained full control of his/her destiny. That gods had no part in their thought or determination. This concept is the basis of western law and morality. It is a Liberal and a Progressive idea that dominates Western law but specifically American law as the foundation for moral and ethical standards for societies. In their wisdom, the founders of the United States did not leave christianity behind. They incorporated a protection of free thought and expression, not to incorporate christian values, but to protect an individual's right to believe or disbelieve any idea that they chose. This right is purposely made to be an individual right so not to infringe upon the freedom of thought of any other individual that they may enjoy the same freedom. The Constitution of the United States of America bears that out with the Establishment Clause found in Article I. This is further substantiated by the Treaty of Tripoli Article 11.
Morality itself is solely dependent on the society that frames it. It could be a society of one or it could be the world at large. The extent is dependent on who defines it. It is also subject to time as morality is dynamic. It changes over time within the defined society.
I will not accept and will vigorously fight any notion that morality is caused by christianity and that the christian bible (whichever one chosen) is the authority of morality. Even chritian morality is highly subjective. Within christianity itself there are wild variations of what is and is not accepted as moral.
The real question is whether morality is instinctive or not. I tend to think that it is. Wild animals display a moral code for survival. It differs from species but it exists.
In summation, I conclude that morality is subjective and defined by each society and the scope of that society at that specific time. That it originates as a necessary tool for survival. That it is organic and evolves. That there is no objective morality and cannot be. That christian morality cannot be defined as one everlasting thing and is NOT the basis of Western law but rather merely an influence that has lost and will continue to lose its significance.
"This nation is a nation of laws, not men." this quote about the new nation of the United States of America is extremely important because christian values (morality) is based on "men." The idea that a king is ordained by a christian god, that his word is law because it is the worldly voice of that christian god.
The birth of America threw off the yoke of christian morality/law in favor of self-determination of individual freedom of laws made by individuals and representatives of those individuals for the sake of self-governance and NOT the rule by a christian authority.
Thus law and morality in the United States is the antithesis of a christian foundation and the birth of individual freedom.

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SecularSonOfABiscuitEater's picture
I know right. Such a boring

I know right. Such a boring subject at this point. The debate room is a freakin encyclopedia of morality posts for those who want to know more.

mykcob4's picture
Usually, Secular, I respond

Usually, Secular, I respond to the morality threads. I think that churches in their youth organization or some other part of their bible study get together and discuss some issue. It really isn't a study of the bible at all. In most cases they start out and read a paragraph out loud then they close the book and have a prayer (purely symbolic gesture) and the book remains closed the rest of the time. Then, they choose a subject and discuss it. But it isn't a really discussion. It is usually a rah-rah session about homosexuality, gun control, or something political. At some point, the leader gives the attendees a task. It will be about raising money, but more often than not, it will be about confronting a non-believer. The choose their "hot topic" that THEY think will turn the target. they aren't very educated about the issue so they go with "buzz words" and pat answers.Lately, this issue has been "morality". They think they have a winner because they think that everyone must agree that if you don't have a god setting down morality, then you will commit crimes with no remorse. They are shocked when they don't get the reaction that they want.
Now Larry A. Has been droning on about morality and christianity being the basis of American government since I have been here. He is totally political. He is like Mike Pence. He is actually stupid. He relies on embellishing history to fit his narrative. He can't see that there is no standard bible and therefore no standard for christian morality.
But yeah, since these groups have decided that "morality" is a winner, it will be a hot topic. And since this is an Atheist Forum we will be prime targets of this attack.

jamiebgood1's picture
Wow Mykcob4 sounds like you

Wow Mykcob4 sounds like you were apart of my youth. Pick a verse. Wait that one doesn't make sense so I'll pick another and close the Bible then spu some religious hate that can influence these kids to stay straight. It makes me mad that I used to do the same thing in my private time with Jesus. Waste of time and brains:)

mykcob4's picture
I know JamieB. because I

I know JamieB. because I lived it. When I was young, I belonged to a singing group that was being trained for an international tour. It was called Agape.
Agape - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape
Agape (Ancient Greek ἀγάπη, agápē) is a Greco-Christian term referring to "love: the highest form of love, charity", and "the love of God for man and of man for God".
I, of course, didn't know what it meant. I just went along with the crowd. After every rehearsal, we had a group prayer then the "advisor" would have a meeting instructing us to "bring the word" to the masses. "Morality" was high on the list.
I had not formed my individual politics yet, but I was uncomfortable about it. I eventually quit. The "advisor" was arrested for molesting one of the girls on one of the trips.

jamiebgood1's picture
Mykcob4

Mykcob4
That's crazy. Love that you were in a choir though. Crazy how the "moral" religious folks are so often predators that molest rape and commit adultery behind their facade. It's discusting

Harry33Truman's picture
Why is it that you call

Why is it that you call anything or anyone you like 'liberal progressive.' Its annoying.

mykcob4's picture
Not related Harry. Just

Not related Harry. Just because you are mad that you were proven wrong on guns doesn't give you the right to try and hijack the thread.

Harry33Truman's picture
I wasn't proven wrong on guns

I wasn't proven wrong on guns- you're just butthurt that I'm right so you keep bringing this up.

jamiebgood1's picture
Harryhttp://people.com/crime

Harry
http://people.com/crime/6-year-old-goes-facebook-gun-violence-video/?xid...
Watch this kid. It shouldn't be like this:(

mykcob4's picture
Nevermind about Harry, JamieB

Nevermind about Harry, JamieB. He will just rant and rave and drone on.

jamiebgood1's picture
Mm Kay

Mm Kay

mykcob4's picture
So yet still more on morality

So yet still more on morality.
I often point out that the Spartans thought that raising a baby with a defect was immoral. their solution was to toss that baby off of a cliff to its death. this was a moral standard of that high functioning successful society. It lasted for decades, maybe centuries. No one really knows.
The Spartans also had a practice that when young boys were admitted for military training they would be assigned a man to help guide them That boy was expected to submit sexually to that man in a homosexual act. It was thought by the Spartans that it created a bond that would cause both the man and the boy to fight for each other. Many Greek states adopted this practice.
So morality is solely dependent on the time and the society that designs it.

Nyarlathotep's picture
mykcob4 - That boy was

mykcob4 - That boy was expected to submit sexually to that man in a homosexual act. It was thought by the Spartans that it created a bond that would cause both the man and the boy to fight for each other.

There was a similar system in pre-modern era Japan; for priests and warriors.
------------------------------
For something really out there, read about the Etoro people.

mykcob4's picture
Thanks, Nyarlathotep. I will

Thanks, Nyarlathotep. I will read it although I am not really interested in homosexual history. It was just a point I used to illustrate how morality changes.

jamiebgood1's picture
https://www.reddit.com/r

https://www.reddit.com/r/JoeRogan/comments/3f1bra/in_the_sambia_tribe_yo...
8 years of oral sex to tribesman to prepare them for heterosexual life? WTF
Who's making up these rules?
So many similar stories throughout history. Why not just make blowjob a religion.

Harry33Truman's picture
Certain people in history

Certain people in history believed things to be moral which arent, therefore morality is a construct of society? There are points in history where they believed the earth was flat, does that make the shape of the earth dependant on the time and society that designs it?

mykcob4's picture
One is physical and the other

One is physical and the other is not. One is a dynamic of social norms, the other is acceptance of known facts. Your argument here isn't relatable. It borders on the ridiculous.

Harry33Truman's picture
Mathematics isn't physical

Mathematics isn't physical either- they are concepts which apply to the physical. Morality can have no other basis but in philosophy, and I use Lockean Contrareanism.

mykcob4's picture
Okay bright one, I'll play

Okay bright one, I'll play your silly game. Apply mathematics to psychology that PROVES where morality came from. And while you're at it use math to determine if it is objective or subjective.
The thing is that you aren't debating the issue. You just want to oppose me. I don't care if you have a legitimate argument but you don't. It's your attempt to disrupt and hijack because you got your feelings hurt. Look back at that thread in which it happened. Everyone and I mean everyone tried hard to EDUCATE you. Yoiu didn't accept the facts or the valid information, you just got hurt feelings. Okay, I for one am sorry I hurt your wittle feelings...get over it already.
I partially agree that morality only has a basis in philosophy, except for the fact that it may have been necessary for survival to societies and evolved from that need.
Since you brought it up I refreshed myself on Locke's ideas of morality. They are generally regarded as not fully developed. Here is a site that YOU might read about it.
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke-moral/

Harry33Truman's picture
This has nothing to do with

This has nothing to do with feelings myckob, I told you I believe in objective morality because I do- and if you are trying to educate me you are doing a shitty job at it. Not one reputable source or fact- as a matter of fact you never even claimed anything that would call for facts, you just said I was wrong and was falling for 'right wing propaganda.' I have no feelings with anonymous people myckob- you could get mauled to death tommorow morning and it would provoke no emotional reaction.

I read his Second Treatise on Government, its the basis of my political philosophy and morality. Either way, they provide some foundation, so even if they are not complete, they give us some first principles that we can apply.

I can give you an argument from consistently or from autonomy- both are relevant, but I'm lazy at the moment so I'll just copy paste a section from one of my debates:

"See John Locke's Second Treatise on Government, {1} in it, he states:
'A state also of equality, wherein all the power and jurisdiction is reciprocal, no one having more than another; there being nothing more evident, than that creatures of the same species and rank, promiscuously born to all the same advantages of nature, and the use of the same faculties, should also be equal one amongst another without subordination or subjection...
"The like natural inducement hath brought men to know that it is no less their duty, to love others than themselves; for seeing those things which are equal, must needs all have one measure; if I cannot but wish to receive good, even as much at every man’s hands, as any man can wish unto his own soul, how should I look to have any part of my desire herein satisfied, unless myself be careful to satisfy the like desire, which is undoubtedly in other men, being of one and the same nature?'

The argument in essence is that every human, being part of the same species, should be equal to every other. If this is so, it is inconsistent to say that one should exercise authority over another, or that one should have more rights than the other. If this is so, it is a logical contradiction for one person to engage in aggression against another, or harm their person or property- because that person considers it acceptable to do that to another, but not for another to do it to him. Such aggressions, therefore, are founded upon a contradiction and an arbitrary distinction, and are therefore illegitimate.

I more accept autonomy as the basis of these Natural Rights, but regardless, consistency is a way to back up this principle and defeat opposing arguments."

I can give better ones latter.

mykcob4's picture
I don't care what you think

I don't care what you think about me personally. I am not a 16-year old that worries about those things. I grew up long ago. As for Locke, I have read many critics of his ideas on morality. I provided with one even though you claim that I don't provide facts. Locke was many things and most outstanding but he lacked an understanding of the individual person. He was an idealist, not a realist.
BTW THIS thread is about morality NOT about politics.

Harry33Truman's picture
I don't care what you think

I don't care what you think of me either myckob- as a matter of fact I don't care about you period. It may sound bad, but you could be ripped to shreds by some wild animal and it wouldnt affect me at all, or anyone else here for that matter.

I haven't seen you provide any link to some criticism of Locke- but yes, he was an idealist, that just means he was talking about the way things ought to be, not the way things are. If you want that you need to go to Adam Smith.

mykcob4's picture
@Harry such passion. I really

@Harry such passion. I really struck a nerve.
I did provide a criticism of Locke that came from a respected Stanford philosophy professor. You just ignored it.
I know what an idealist is. I don't think that you do.
I know of Adam Smith and don't care one whit about his ideals.
The fact is that your descriptions of Liberals and Progressives are way off. You equate them to NAZIs which is a far right wingnut tactic. It tells me that you either are brainwashed, ingest propaganda or both.
This thread is about "Morality", in particular, that morality does not come from any god. It isn't a playground for you to regain the respect that you lost in other threads.
I think it is pathetic that you copy me, changing your icon and overt actions like that. Well, kids will be kids.

jamiebgood1's picture
"It may sound bad, but you

"It may sound bad, but you could be ripped to shreds by some wild animal and it wouldnt affect me at all, or anyone else here for that matter."
Yes that does sound bad Harry.
For the record I would be affected if any of you people on this forum were ripped to shreds by a wild animal. Not a nice vision

jamiebgood1's picture
Harry

Harry
You got your hair done. I love the flip:)

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