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@ SfT
“Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god(s). Period.” In theory/definition yes, in reality, NO its not.
Then, please, explain how in theory/definition it is a YES, but in reality it is a NO.
When anyone says they believe in god, my first response is: "Please define "god"."
Followed by, "I do not believe you. I need objective and hard empirical evidence. Otherwise, you are full of it."
If I do not believe in any god(s), then that IS REALITY.
Otherwise, prove it is not reality.
rmfr
Arakish,
I admit, some here are dirtying the water with explanations of God, Atheism, reality and so forth. To define Atheism is to say, "A disbelief in a supernatural power or powers". However, this does not go all the way to explaining certain concepts about how we perceive reality. Consciousness comes into this category and Einstein's theory of relativity. In this case, both can be true.
"If I do not believe in any god(s), then that IS REALITY.". Well, again this is only true to the observer. It is true to him/her.
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I love to beat up Theists as much as the next man (metaphorically speaking, you understand), especially Muslims, as I believe they are a close second to Mormons in the, "Most obviously made up religions" category.
However, with that being said, I think we really can come to a common ground of sorts. It may not be the common ground for which you sought, but may offer everyone an opportunity to agree on a platform to begin.
This is my platform from which I offer evidence for the creation of everything. Some will agree, some won't, I'm fine with that, but I'm giving it a go.
Consciousness is the only reality. I can prove this by saying, "stop what you are doing and look around you, don't think, don't use words to describe anything, just look at objects in space. Observe the space the objects reside. This is consciousness. This moment is all you have, this very moment. Tomorrow isn't real, yet it will arrive and when it does, you will experience it now, in this moment. The past is simply a memory that arises in the present moment. This is one of the truest facts you will ever know."
Many scientists, atheists and generally very clever people, say consciousness is formed in the brain and that can be proved by cutting parts of the brain out and then losing that portion of your consciousness. I however, believe (for want of a better word) that our brain acts as a receiver to consciousness. I am not alone in this, I am proud to say that on my team I have Robert Lanza and Nikola Tesla. A doorway was draw for you to enter with the release of the double slit experiment. Many more experiments have been made, but for the ones who don't know of it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwXQjRBLwsQ&feature=youtu.be
This means that nothing can be created without consciousness, all particles reside in a dormant state until you take your awareness to them. Robert Lanza (Biocentrism), can show you that consciousness MUST exist first, before anything can be created. God could not have existed without consciousness so couldn't have existed before.
I believe that all real religions (excluding the made up ones) are a testimony to this, the bible for instance is riddled with stories and quotes that make no sense as a verbatim story, but make perfect sense in describing consciousness. Jesus once said, "Before Abraham was, I AM". The eternal, "I AM". This means that before you can be aware of being man, you must first become aware of being.
http://www.robertlanza.com/biocentrism-how-life-and-consciousness-are-th...
I can elaborate further if anyone wishes, but this is truth. Allah is no where to be seen in this.
That video is wildly inaccurate; additionally it was made by a cult that claims to channel the spirit of a 35,000 year old warrior. They seem to specialize in quantum mysticism, a pseudoscience. In fact, in that Wikipedia article on quantum mysticism, this video is listed as an example of it! I recommend extreme skepticism.
Well I guess it is a good thing I could not get past the 40 second mark.
Thanks Nyar. Kudos to the skeptical research.
rmfr
To be honest: this wasn't my first encounter with the cult of Ramtha.
Nyarlathotep
I really don't know why you would be sceptical of this experiment, it is not their experiment. You may find the behaviour of this "Cult" bizarre, but it takes nothing away from the findings. This experiment was not discovered by these people, they may believe a warped version of Buddhism, but it takes nothing away from the findings of quantum physics. Take a look at Robert Lanza and then tell me these people have made up a story of quantum physics.
I didn't mean you should be skeptical of any given experiment; you should be skeptical of what the cult it telling you.
Like when they said the electron behaves differently when your looking at it. Well sure it does, because to see an electron you have to hit it with a photon. Remove the observer at the slit, but keep the photons and you will get the same result. It is the collision that changes things, not the fact that someone saw the collision.
To further elucidate what Nylar said:
The unknown part here is not why do the electrons behave differently when observed, the question really is how do we observe the results w/o affecting the results? The current method of observation unfortunately effects the results.
And to be clear, it is not "humans observing with their eyes" it is sophisticated equipment observing and reading the results that then translates the data it gets into something humans can read and understand. A lot of people jumped on this simple cause and effect and started coming up with wild and crazy theories. The whole thing sounds cool, but in reality, it is quite boring a result that basically says: we need to devise better tools to observe results.
A somewhat similar example, SETI on it's search for extraterrestrial intelligence, suddenly picked up wavelengths with its sensitive satellite listening equipment that was not random noise, but instead very consistent thrum, that would suddenly appear seemingly out of nowhere and usually last a few minutes and then disappear as quickly as it started. After much hair pulling by the astronomers that left them baffled, it was eventually discovered it was a microwave oven in the kitchen at the Parkes observatory used by staff members to heat up their lunch.
Hopefully Muslims and atheists can reach common ground in recognizing that Muhammad is known to history as a deeply flawed individual, and that his god was in his image.
@sapporo
Another shameless lie by the resident shameless liar that has still yet to produce the evidence asked of him to back up their previous shameless lie. While billions of people will disagree with your most recent uneducated and senseless remark. Look at what
A Jewish polymath and white nationalist Michael Hart is even saying about the Prophet although, I doubt this will do anything to change the ignorance that is deeply engrained in you due to your blind and bigoted hate. I guess me spending the 2 minutes it took to type this up might be worth it. You will find billions of more people that agree with Michael Hart which includes people of all religion and even Atheists that are not so blinded by hatred and ignorance as you are. Good luck.
http://arankingofthe100.blogspot.com/2011/09/michael-h-hart.html
A warlord and paedophile would be the very definition of flawed to most decent people. There was no lie in his post? Sapporo has shown time and again he is anything but ignorant. Paradoxically you can't even precisely define the deity you believe in, or offer any evidence despite numerous requests. It never ceases to amaze me people like you will attack people who happen to be trans or gay with the worst kind of hateful religious bigotry, but whine when someone points out the fact that Mohammed was a violent paedophile.
OK. Finally.
Searching for truth:
I am going to finally sum up, once and for all eternity, what would constitute "evidence".
And I shall endeavor to use small words so you can understand.
Can you understand that statement?
Because otherwise, you shall never, never, be able to provide anything except lies, baloney, bunk, drivel, foolishness, idiocy, bunkum, claptrap, hogwash, poppycock, ridiculousness, rigmarole, tomfoolery, twaddle, ludicrousness.
Dang that thesaurus program comes in handy.
C'mon SfT, use what little brains you have left. Could you not have formualted a guess as to what would qualify as evidence?
rmfr
Posting on the last page for ease
@Tin-man
“Remember my answer to what I would consider credible evidence for the existence of a god? My answer was simply, "I don't know."
Ok, assuming you care enough and/or have enough time why not ask them to define god? See, what annoys me about the approach some people take is that they seem to want to leave the door wide open as to what that particular individual considers evidence, possibly out of fear of getting “trapped” later on. My goal behind trying to find any common ground was not to try and “trap” anyone rather, it was to try and show/project my point of view from a stand point you agree or find credible. Does that make sense? For example, if I said “I don’t believe in math” first off, that statement must have originated from somewhere, where it originated may not be a big deal but, how or why it originated is something I (not anyone else), as the person who said that, needs to think about. That could be a really complex answer but, it will most likely boil down to 3 things. 1) I simply do not understand math therefore, I do not believe in it because I do not believe in that which I do not understand or 2) I never took the time to fully understand math since everything I heard about math so far has been really bad or 3) My experience with math so far has been really bad.
From my personal experience, almost all ignorance I can think stems from something along the lines of what I have mentioned. When I say ignorance I am referring to someone not willing or being able to understand something on its most basic level. For example, you don’t need to be a genius to understand 1+1=2 as that’s the most basic understanding of math. You also don’t need to be a genius to comprehend that there are far more complex equations in math, I purposely used the word comprehend and not understand because rational, sane and logical people can comprehend that something complex can stem from something simple even though they may not understand that complex thing. Hopefully along my rambling I have made enough sense for you to know I am talking about.
Oh, I almost forgot the next part. So, let’s stick with Math, after I understood where my ignorance to math comes from and I cared enough to address it I would start looking in math bit by bit. Maybe I end up thinking it’s worth looking in to or maybe I end thinking it’s a waste of time. You once said something along the lines of how religion lives or should live in all of our minds to a certain extent. I think it was a reply to my “theists living rent free” quote. Sorry, I don’t recall the exact thread you said that. Sticking with Math, if I believed we should all be concerned with math to a certain extent, then someone asked me what I could consider credible evidence for math, don’t you think I should at least have an idea of what that evidence should look like? If I really wanted to see the world from the other point of view, wouldn’t only be logical for me to AT THE VERY LEAST understand the most basic levels of math? Or at least be willing and open to understand those basic levels? At least that way when Tinman comes to tell me Math is great because blah blah blah I can reply and say “based off my limited understanding math please prove 1+1=2”. While I could still ultimately not agree with you at least, I know where you are coming from.
“So, with that in mind, how exactly are we suppose to provide you with something we do not know?”
Simple, if you care or are intellectually curious enough 1) look in to it on a very basic levels 2) Ask questions but, don’t ask “deep” questions from the get go because the answer might not make sense. If I tried to understand quantum physics from day 1 without its pre requisite courses, I’d most likely say this stuff is bs and makes no sense. I am not saying any of this in fear of providing answer, on the contrary, it’s in hopes for you to understand how the answer was reached and that’s a huge difference. What you do with and how you process that answer, is 100% up to you. Agree, disagree, accept or reject, solely up to you.
“As many others have already said numerous times, provide whatever evidence you may have, and it will be up to each individual to judge it according to his/her own values/standards of what would be acceptable and convincing.”
While I am more than happy to do so, I would do it in a 1 on 1 type setting/platform. Things get too confused and messy on these forums and people rarely ever stay on track, it will result in talking to 7-8 different people about 12 different topics. As I said before, if anyone wants I am willing to have a 1 on 1 conversation with any on the platform of their choosing if it makes it easier, or I can look up and suggest something. I doubt it will be that hard.
Your god Allah, on the other hand, and the god in the bible (one in the same, if my understanding is correct) are both reported to be exactly that”
The short and simplified answer is No they are not. Keywords are “short” and “simplified”. The reason I say no is because for the most part Christians believe in the trinity which when you analyze the Jesus part of trinity you will easily reach the conclusion that Jesus cannot be a god for many reasons mainly 1) He also prays, he prays to the father which is also god, so how or why will a god pray at all and why would he pray to another god or even to himself if they are 1? By their definition god is one, so I am sure you see the confusion the trinity causes when put to the test 2) by all Christian historical accounts Jesus displays the attributes of a man, by definition a man can NOT be a god and also a god cannot die. Since Allah is all know and so forth, why would he need us to pray to him through someone else? We, as Muslims, do not believe in the trinity, do not believe in confessing our sins to other people and do not believe in praying to god through anyone, and that also includes the Prophet. Hopefully, that shows you one of the difference between Christianity and Islam. See, it’s based off comments like these that I assume (please correct me if I am wrong), to be blunt, you honestly have no idea what Islam is, I say that with the most respect and not trying to be a pompous.
Have you ever heard of Lesley Hazelton? She is an Agnostic Jew that wrote a biography about Prophet Muhammed (I have not read it). To me, this was extremely interesting for obvious reasons, so, due to my curiosity I watched some of her videos on YouTube, I mean come on, how can someone resist an agnostic Jew that grew up in Israel talking about Prophet Muhammed? Lol. Her take and observation was unique, something I have never heard any Muslim scholar or theologian look at or bring up. She actually has a bunch of videos online, 2 that I think would particular interest you (any anyone else) are the 2 below. The first one is ted talk which is only 9 minutes and it’s about the Quran. The second one is about 40 mins (start at min 6 as that’s where it really starts) talks about mindset, reaction, mental state and behavior of the Prophet after he claimed to have received revelation for the first time. She compares his actions post revelation to what we know today about through the many, many years of science and tries to see if that at least makes sense based off what we know today. Was he a mad man? Was he a liar? Or do his actions 1400 years ago actually match with what we know some should act like when they claim they have been through such a traumatic experience?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOnwG_GgAqg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2-hTxDvRVlo
IF you are interested in learning the basics of what Islam teaches I am here to help if you need it, this is in no way, shape or form of me trying to convert anyone lol. By the way, that’s one of many popular misconceptions people have about Muslims, it is NOT our job, mission nor is it in our ability to convert anyone. This is nothing more than knowledge, are we not creatures of knowledge?
I love the quote below, the first part is self-explanatory, the second part to me, means to remove useless knowledge or at the very least to remove things that make you unsure of the knowledge you currently have. Also, seeking beneficial knowledge was the very first word revealed to the Prophet, so Muslims aren’t opposed to knowledge or science as much as you might think. After all, there is at least 1 instance that I can think of right now where science was wrong and the Quran was right. What did Nicolaus Copernicus say about the sun in the 16th century vs some illiterate man in the desert in the 7th century? This is not meant to cause a debate, this is just showing that there are MANY, MANY reasons we believe in the Quran, that was just 1 example.
“To attain knowledge, add things every day. To attain wisdom, remove things every day.” – Lao Tzu.
What precludes "god" from being a man and being incapable of dying? There are numerous instances in mythology.
The qur'an says that the Sun sets behind a muddy spring on Earth. This is contrary to the Earth being spherical. Muslims are told to face some meteorite in Mecca during prayer, which as a graphic that Atheist Republic often post to their feed points out, only means they are praying directly into space - thus meaning the early Muslims believed the Earth was flat. The qur'an talks of the Sun and the Moon being lights of the day and night and mentions how they move in orbits, but not the Earth, implying that the writer did not know that the Earth has its own orbit. It says that the Moon follows the Sun in an orbit, which simply is not true.
@Tinman
“Okay, I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not mean that as it sounds”
Thank you, I should have said that MY personal experience is different from yours. Not saying or discounting your personal experiences rather, simply pointing out mine was and is different. Sorry for the confusion
“Me - "My Mom died last year, and I was very upset about it."
You - "Gee, I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your statement about that."
TINMAN (shout intended lol) you should now as a Muslim I would say “may allah have mercy on her” lol. Jokes aside, I hope you mom is alive and well.
“I assure you, it is not a pleasant experience”
I am sure it is, as I have seen the effects on people from those whom have power over them (parents, teachers, etc…) when they use Islam as a weapon and end screwing up that individual. So, its not just you, many have gone through that and many still do. I was lucky to not have that happen to me and voluntarily become Muslim, meaning it came out of conviction and not force, which plays a HUGE role. Although, I truly do feel sorry for the ones that get screwed up by religion because by the time they are old enough to know they got screwed up, it could often be too late. On the flip side, I am sure you have heard stories of many people that say that religion has made their lives much better. So maybe saying that religion screws people up and ignoring the fact that the person or people doing what they are doing "in the name of religion" are the ones to truly blame. Personally, I think blaming religion is an easy way out rather than the person that "hurt" you, especially if that person is close to you. Anyway, all I am saying is I don't think there's a black or white answer in this situation and I am also not downplaying or dismissing the effects this could have on a person
“how on Earth can you possibly expect to relate to it in any meaningful way?”
See above
“Please excuse that. I literally had to sit here at my keyboard for several minutes composing my thoughts and calming my nerves a little before responding to that, because I truly do want to keep my tone as civil as possible during this post.”
Again, thank you and again, sorry for the miscommunication. Sometimes when I am busy or in a rush I say things without thinking about how the other person might take it. No offense was intended with that comment. Although, I hope the intended message was sent. I guess I will find out as I continue to read this post *fingers crossed*
“If memory serves me correctly, you once told us you actually CHOSE to follow Islam after many weeks/months of actively researching and comparing it to other religions. And if I recall correctly, you said you chose it because it is the only one that made logical/reasonable sense to you. (Please correct me if I am wrong..
That is correct. I do know I summarized my “journey” in that post so I don’t know if I mentioned how long it took. So, to clarify, it took about 2 years
“So, no offense, but in my mind you basically chose Islam because of attitude and a better tailor.”
You clearly have not been to Muslims countries, their fashion sucks lol but, I see what you are getting at.
“Because here is what it all boils down to for me. As much as I despise them. As much as I condemn their actions. As badly as I wish there was some way to completely eradicate them from the face of the Earth,”
As I was reading this I was saying to myself “Yes, yes” In a transformers G1 Megtron voice because I absolutely agree with you but, then
“almost cannot help but have some small amount of grudging respect for all of those Christians and followers of Islam that we label as "extremists."”
HOLD UP!!! What? Ok let me read on before I lose it
“I'm talking about those who are even to this day burning friends and family members alive in the name of the Christian god because those friends and family were accused of being witches.”
Dafuq? Those Indian hackers hack Tinman?
“I am talking about those who mercilessly and slowly saw the heads off "non-believers" while they are still alive in the name of Allah. Oh, and the ones who would strap several pounds of explosives and ball bearings to themselves and set it off in the middle of a mall full of innocent people...... IN THE NAME OF ALLAH.”
You are one line away from me calling homeland security on you
“And WHY would I ever consider having even the slightest amount of respect for such groups or individuals?
This should be interesting as I have been asking myself that same question this entire time.
“Because at the end of the day, THEY are the only ones who are TRULY following the guidelines of their precious holy books to the letter. THEY are the true Christians. THEY are the true Muslims. No matter how despicable their actions. No matter how fucked up it all may be, THEY actually have the balls and the commitment to "walk the walk" and follow and carry out the difficult and unpleasant commands within their books, as opposed to just picking out all the goody-goody feel-good stuff that is easy to follow and makes them feel good inside.”
Aaaaaaaaaand we lost him again. Anyway, jokes aside, a few lines up you said “you are absolutely correct in saying I do not get the true understanding of how Islam works and what it is about. That is very true” so I ask you, after that statement how do say that you know these Muslims the ones that “we label as "extremists." Are the “only ones who are TRULY following the guidelines of their precious holy books to the letter”?
Regarding what kind of evidence is needed for a discussion about the real world, and that would include anything that can affect the real world, I have made a detailed post on the thread "On Converting Atheists" (08-03-2018 14:48). That post was followed by several long posts that answered various queries by calhais. The thread deals with the justification of the scientific method, the starting point that many of us recognize as indispensable in the investigation of reality.
"It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming." - qur'an 36:40
lol, so Allah has never heard of a solar eclipse.
@SfT I made a reply outlining evidence back on page 1 of this thread. You have not yet responded to it or updated your original post. Perhaps you missed it? I kept it short (ish) and answered what the definition of evidence is from my perspective adding to the conversation we had a post or 2 before about definitions staying mostly on topic.
www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/muslim-athiest-common-ground-...
@LogicForTW
Oh dang, sorry bro I completely missed it. Let’s blame Tinman since I was busy replying to his posts lol.
“Well hopefully you got an answer you were looking for so you can move forward?”
Yes, and thank you for that. Although, like I said in other posts on this thread, seeing how confusing this has gotten and how “noisy” these forums are, let’s try to continue this discussion 1 on 1. When we are done I don’t even mind if you want to post our entire conversation here but, honestly this forum is not a place where we can stay on track and focus. Too much “noise” from others. One of the reasons I missed your posted. Let me know.
Actually I think it is more on line that you purposefully and selectively ignore certain posts.
Because even on a phone there is that "View X New" link. I tested it.
I shall be the first to admit that if a new post is made on the first page, it becomes difficult to find the next newest post. But that is simply handled by using the date/time stamp of the post. Just look for the date/time that is similar to the first new post. Simple.
If you ain't intelligent enough to figure these things out on your own, then how can you expect us to take you seriously?
rmfr
I never done much one on one, but we can try that if you want via PM feature on these forums, just another page for me to check for a little while.
Page 4, and I'm posting this at the end so it's not missed.
SFT, what is your best evidence that any deity exists?
@logic
Am I doing something wrong? Please see attachments
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This one too
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the user name in question is "Logic For The Win"
@ Nyarlathotep
And here I thought you already posted about this...
Does no one read the forum boards anymore?
rmfr
Yeah I apologize, when I created this account years ago, first I went for LogicFTW... Name already used. Then I did Logic For The Win, that worked, but I then later made the forum name LogicForTW. Never really bothered to change it simply because I rarely check my personal messages page. I will check it now for your post however.
Obviously we're still waiting for SFT, to answer, and demonstrate his best evidence that any deity exists?
Pretty much the kind of evasion I'd expect from a thread pretending to look for common ground, that immediately dismissed objective empirical evidence and the scientifc method.
Since those represent the best common ground for discussing our experience of reality it was obvious this thread meant favourable ground for his beliefs.
I doubt if he knows ANYTHING about Islam, either. Delusional.
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