My reasoning and evidence for believing in God
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No I didn't. I have to ask, is English your first language?
1. Logic is relevant for the reasons I stated in my post, I suggest you address the content, I cited Jo's endless use of known logical fallacies, and his dishonest claims that his beliefs were rational. I have no idea what you mean by "can't contact nature" but it is your claim, and not mine, so it has no relevance to my post. It also sound like nonsense to me.Logic is a man made method of reasoning that adheres to strict principles of validation, and one of those basic principles is that nothing that contains a known logical fallacy, like the ones Jo keeps using, can be asserted as rational, which Jo repeatedly claimed his beliefs were.
2. I don;t need you to define what I am, or tell me how to think, you seem to have enough of problem forming cogent rational thoughts of your own.
3. I will happily answer your questions when you address the many question I have asked you that you have ignored. For instance you have repeatedly claimed objective facts don't exist, yet won't answer me when I ask you if it is an objective fact that the world is not flat? Almost as if you know you have painted yourself into a corner with your bizarre nonsense.
No I didn't, this is till a dishonest misrepresentation. Logic is man made, that is axiomatic.
It's not my logic, it's just logic, and Jo has been banned for his relentlessly dishonest posts and trolling, so you you might want to bear that in mind. Now do you have anything substantive of value to offer on the actual content, or is this asinine attack on logic all you have?
If I was to concede there is a god, and if I was to concede that his god is moving humanity towards a "better" world, then I must also assume that this god created this horrific mess and caused all of the pain and suffering in the first place.
If I was to accept a god, I would have to accept this god as a malevolent and cruel SOB.
This is a fundamental flaw in assigning this positivism towards a god, because this god is also what created everything (and knew what the outcome would be). If one is to assign good things to a god, then one must also not ignore the negative things one must also assign to this god.
Counting the hits and ignoring the misses.
For example, humanity advanced from the experiences of WW2, but just look at how many people suffered, how many people died for that to take place.
Is it reasonable (if I accepted this god hypothesis) to assume god hates the Jews?
Second point: isn't there a better way? Why would this god put humanity through so much pain and suffering? I know quite a bit about training dogs and my wife knows a lot about training people. Positive reinforcement is extremely effective, while beating a child is not as effective or efficient.
"if I was to concede that his god is moving humanity towards a "better" world, then I must also assume that this god created this horrific mess and caused all of the pain and suffering in the first place."
God is good is purpose. These can be interpreted as all transcendentally the same when we are talking about theology and philosophy of first principles.
"If I was to accept a god, I would have to accept this god as a malevolent and cruel SOB."
No, because thats a contradiction. God's Goodness is the being of thought to which our minds are comparing some state of affairs. If you think God is not good, you need to understand what Good is, and if you understand what the Good is, then you realize that it is God. You are purposefully assigning contradictory properties to beings and then using that as evidence. Alot of this is you just randomly coming in and out of consciousnesses without realizing fully the sets and concepts you are ascertaining. If I had to guess, I would guess you are still thinking that God is just some empirical hypothesis, that is some how verifiable with sense organs.
"Second point: isn't there a better way? Why would this god put humanity through so much pain and suffering? I know quite a bit about training dogs and my wife knows a lot about training people. Positive reinforcement is extremely effective, while beating a child is not as effective or efficient."
Because we live in a fallen world. We have free will and so evil comes into the world. This is why Plato's point is right: we need to speculate about the Good, in fact we literally NEED to: There is no such thing as a mind not willing towards what it perceives to be God's goodness. Clearly, you think it Good to join this forum and discuss atheism, not because there is a lower purpose to it, but because you think this is literally how reality ought to be. So in your mind, God, or in your words "The ultimate explanation and purpose to everything, the standpoint to which I make judgments of morality, and the efficient will that brought everything into existence" contains the proposition, or "commandment" "thou shalt post on a dead atheist forum"
If your god idea cannot be sensed with our sensory organs, what separates your god idea from mine? (mine is that logicftw is god, and demands your tribute.)
You reject my god idea, but keep your own god idea. Not for any reason based on facts or things that can be measured, but simply because you want to and it is more convenient to you.
A being would not be the ultimate explanatory principle if it was sensuous.... Our sense organs only observe things in space and time. For example, If god was in space and time and could be differentiated from other beings in space and time, then there would exist some being which dosent have a casual connection with god, contradicting the notion of god. You are a finite contingent being.
"If your god idea cannot be sensed with our sensory organs, what separates your god idea from mine? (mine is that logicftw is god, and demands your tribute.)"
We both believe the ultimate objective explanatory principle I would assume, If you don't, then you have nothing intelligible to say. I just call it what it is, and has been called since the ancient greeks.
"You reject my god idea, but keep your own god idea. Not for any reason based on facts or things that can be measured, but simply because you want to and it is more convenient to you."
I reject your god Idea because it is contradictory and dosent explain nearly as-much as whats going on in the world. For example, I believe that every religious person is literally worshiping god, because what they are worshiping is literally an objective object of thought, and a being which is literally space-less and timeless. They are all ascertaining the greatest conceivable being. Yet we have different minds, so different people are all ascertaining slightly different properties. You can't say that, You have to say they are delusional or something, yet you can't even prove that because you yourself are just undermining your own mind in saying that.
I do not believe that your god exists in reality. Reality is adequately defined for you to present objective evidence of your god within it. I do not believe in things that are unreasonable or irrational, without clear objective evidence...demonstrable preferred. So please, provide said evidence, so we can talk further about your beliefs...otherwise there is no reason for me to continue any further discussing
this topic with you. Thanks.
Hey! Where the hell ya been, you ol' fart??? Great having you back. Hope you will be hanging around for awhile.
Fighting failure in reason, face to face. It's more fun. Good to see your oily face again. Was this the Jo from light years ago?
@doG Re: Jo
Yep. That's the one. If you think he was bad before you pulled your disappearing act, then you should go check out some of his more recent stuff if you get the chance. YIKES!
At least he's objectively real, which is more than any theist has managed to demonstrate for the deity(s) they believe in.
The rest of your post is a long list of arguments from assertion fallacies, where you reel off unevidenced claims in dizzying tandem, and a couple of begging the question fallacies, where you make assumption in your argument , about the very thing you are arguing for.
@David... correct me if I’m wrong- in your speculation, (@Alchemy You are purposefully assigning contradictory properties to beings ) you we’re just including those qualities right? That’s what I understood when I read it.
To me, the speculation made sense to include both good and bad.
However, again, not distracting - “good and bad” are ill defined.
You're not offering any explanation let alone evidence for your claims, they just seem to be an endless list of argument from assertion fallacies, and this...
Is complete gobbledegook, what does it even mean?
Firstly this is another bare assertion, secondly suffering existed for countless millions of years in the animal kingdom before humans evolved just a couple of hundred thousand years ago, so your fallen world claim doesn't help. Theologians have struggled with theodicy for thousands of years, and with good reason. Epicurus summed it up quite well before humans created christianity.
"“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”
And Epicurus dies almost 3 centuries before Jesus is purported to have lived.
"Because we live in a fallen world. We have free will and so evil comes into the world."
Did your god not create this entire universe?
Is your god not all-knowing, including being aware of all that will happen?
Thus I lay the burden of all the cruelty and suffering at your god's feet, because it was responsible for all of it, knew it was going to happen, and could have prevented it.
"God is good is purpose."
No, this god is a homicidally cruel, sadistic, emotionally stunted, and insecure piece of shit.
David Killens, Isn't there a better way?
1. Science claims that the universe is "fine tuned" and has to be the way it is to enable life. So if God wanted life, it had to be this way.
2. Atheists create life too when they have children. I'm sure atheists love their children in a way that is similar to God loving people. If every thing is so horrible and God is bad for creating life, why do atheists create life when they don't have to?
3. Part of the horror of WW2 was the atheist Stalin reportedly murdering millions upon millions. Clearly being an atheist doesn't prevent a person from evil acts.
1. No it doesn't, and you have repeatedly claimed no objective facts exist, so you trying to cite science is hilarious.
2. What an absurdly stupid claim, if a deity existed that was omniscient and omnipotent, it would have limitless choice, and yet according to theists has deliberately designed and created a world with ubiquitous suffering, humans having children need not lead to suffering at all, nor do they have limitless power and knowledge to know if it will, or to prevent it. All in all a preposterous analogy.
3. Another straw man fallacy, since no one has ever claimed not believing in a deity prevents evil, why would it?
1) Science does not make that claim. Science has not proven that claim.
@Jo. Once again his dishonest nature rears it's silly head. When you gonna get a clue.
SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF - YET AGAIN
" It is also the lack of evidence to the contrary, and the lack of convincing arguments to the contrary." (NO ONE HAS TO ARGUE AGAINST YOUR SILLY IDEA OF GOD. YOU HAVE THE BURDEN OF PROOF. YOU SAID THERE WAS EVIDENCE AND WE ARE WAITING.)
MORE UTTER AND COMPLETE BULLSHIT: JO LINKED TO "EVIDENCE"
"anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true:" Key word here...
"PROVE." demonstrate the truth or existence of (something) by evidence or argument. STILL WAITING MR. DISHONEST JO,
1. If God exists, there would be something rather than nothing. (SO WHAT?)
Operative word "if." We are already in the land of imagination. Prove your god exists. You do not get to "assume" existence. FAIL
2. "If god exists the universe would have laws?" BLACK AND WHITE FALLACY. Are you asserting a god could not create a universe with no laws? How about a universe with some laws? Point 2 is complete and utter nonsense.
3. "If god exists the universe would be testable" (PROVE IT!) A blind assertion with nothing a all backing it up. You may have well said "If god exists people would lose their hair." COMPLETE NON-SEQUITUR.
4. O FOR FUCK SAKE - THIS IS JUST STUPID. THERE IS NO REASON TO READ ANY FURTHER. ONE IDIOTIC ASSERTION AFTER ANOTHER. JO YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY ON THIS SITE. NONE. WHY DON'T YOU JOIN A THEIST SITE WHERE YOU CAN CONFUSE THEM WITH YOUR BULLSHIT.
MAY I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION, PLEASE?
Ladies and gentlemen, for those who are interested, I'm afraid our dearly beloved Jo has recently been sent away into The Netherworld to be reunited with all his trolling brethren who have passed before him. Weep not, however, for surely his trolling spirit will continue to watch over those of us who truly believe in the cyber-world afterlife. And for those who believe in gaming regeneration, you can take comfort in knowing Jo may possibly return to us one day in the form of odiferous tubular footwear. Amen.
Oh, in other news, ongoing celebration party currently taking place in breakroom. Free eggnog for everybody. Nyar and David K. are the guests of honor.
That is all.
@Tin: "Eggnog" Excellent, I need a good shit. I have been a bit bloated lately.
@Cog Re: "Eggnog" Excellent, I need a good shit. I have been a bit bloated lately."
Well, then you are in luck, my old friend. I put a double dose of Ex-lax in this batch.
Arrghhh, my head hurts ..... The NoMoJo party almost killed me.
Aw say it ain't so, everytime I offer my heart.
On the plus side I won't have to read anymore posts of Jo's rehashing the argument from ignorance fallacy he peddled relentlessly.
On second thoughts it's a brave new day...
@Sheldon Re: "Aw say it ain't so, everytime I offer my heart."
Grieve not, dear Sheldon. For there will no doubt be another who will arrive to fill the sad, empty void left within your soul by Jo's unexpected departure. Yes, there is still hope for you, as there are many such as Jo and Joy and JoC and John and Joel and Jolene and Joe-Bob-Billy-Boy and-... Well, you get the idea. Anyway, chin up, good sir! Look NOT back on the past! Tomorrow is the future! And the future is now!... *BUUuuurrrrrrrp!!!*... Oh, wow... *looking at near-empty cup in hand*... I really outdid myself on this batch of eggnog... *stumbling back to eggnog barrel*...
Being new and not having the years under my belt on this forum... does this mean “don’t be surprised if Joke arrives as a new member???”
@Whitefire Re: "...does this mean “don’t be surprised if Joke arrives as a new member???”
Joke, Joker, Job, Jolly, Jobless... Hell, none of those would surprise me in the least. Regardless of the name, though, rest assured the parasites masquerading as "Truth seeking theists" are resilient little fuckers, rather like cockroaches. And they will not allow a little inconvenience like getting banned prevent them from re-spawning and returning to smear the "Good Word" all over any surface they can find. But - hey - at least it keeps things interesting around here... *chuckle*...
Sorry but GOD is not the answer I come to when I start to study the stories contained within the Bible. All the plagues can be explained by natural weather phenomenon, all you have to do is watch The Weather Channel and they have explained much of it on there.
I also have a hard time with the whole world flooded shit, as there's no way they got that many millions of animals on one ship. Just to fit the first million in one ship you almost need an Ark the size of like, one of these new cruse-ships times like 1000. None of the stories are possible, and the way the bible claims Jesus was hung is biologically impossible. He would fall off the cross before even dying yet. No matter how much I research it I never find God in the middle of it, as I always seem to find natural ways to explain everything in the Bible.
We didn't come from just Adam and Eve. That's wrong and so are every other story in the Christian Bible. In fact no ones bibles have 100% accuracy as they were all made up by humans. Humans shouldn't treat each other nice because a God told them so. Humans should treat each other nice for the better of us humans and future generations to come. If we bring them up believing in this stupid shit, more wars will continue over just that. How many 10s of thousands have already died in the name of Christianity already? Many. Same with many other religions, as Islam tells them to hate other religions. It is time we quit this stupid shit and come together as human beings, as we are all humans no matter where on the globe we come from.
And I wrote all that with a Cannabis buzz, will smoke the rest real soon too.
Fievel Mousekewitz: "Sorry but GOD is not the answer I come to when I start to study the stories contained within the Bible."
God is not even the question I ask whenever I think about the Bible.
@Get off my lawn
Get off my lawn damn it.
"God is not even the question I ask whenever I think about the Bible."
When I think of the Bible, I think about the people trying to explain things when they had no explanation. We know today the universe wasn't created in six days. It took billions of years before even getting to earth yet. (not important) but I believe that there's advanced life out there someplace. Since we were not first it is more than possible other life exists on other planets someplace. It is also possible they found means of travel we haven't thought of yet. They might even be more advanced than us. I never come to the conclusion that a god exists.
my Two Cents.
@Mousekewitz: When I think about the Bible I think about ......
Love the litesaber!!!