An Open Audio Letter to Richard Dawkins

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GabrielSerafin's picture
An Open Audio Letter to Richard Dawkins

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Cognostic's picture
Another theist that seems to

Another theist that seems to know a whole hell of a lot about god, what god thinks, what god wants, and the purpose of life itself. One question brings the house of glass down. "How do you know."

Assumption piled upon assumption and a complete waste of time. Utter Nonsense.

GabrielSerafin's picture
The sheer power of the

The sheer power of the intellect is capable of generating many answers; much like we can determine the distance between the earth and the Sun without having to stretch a physical measuring tape all the way from our planet to the Sun. The fact that the universe is comprehensible through the logical language of mathematics is a big fat clue that the source and cause of the universe is rational. The problem is that you don’t go to a biologist to seek answers to your questions about astronomy; Theology is the study of God, and it’s branches of Teleology and Ontology study areas that biology does not. But biology in itself is a testament to the harmony and order of nature. Harmony is not accidental, and such order requires logic..

Sapporo's picture
GabrielSerafin: The fact that

GabrielSerafin: The fact that the universe is comprehensible through the logical language of mathematics is a big fat clue that the source and cause of the universe is rational.

Why do you assume there was a "source and cause"?

GabrielSerafin's picture
Sapporo asked: Why do you

Sapporo asked: Why do you assume there was a "source and cause"?

Because the universe had a beginning. For something to have a beginning if must exist in time. Modern astronomy explains that Time and Matter came into existence with the Big Bang; thus the cause of time itself is outside of time itself (eternal); and the cause of matter is outside of matter itself (spiritual). In theological terms, the faculty of a spirit is the power to produce ideas.

Cognostic's picture
@GabrielSerafin RE: The

@GabrielSerafin RE: The universe had a beginning? Do you know how ignorant you sound? Please demonstrate that the universe had a beginning. All we know is that our Physics breaks down at Planck Time. You do understand that the "Big Bang" is not a creation event but an expansion event. The hot dense mass or singularity was there prior to the expansion. How do you get to nothing from something when mass and energy are conserved? Please enlighten us with your wisdom.

"Time and Matter came into existence with the Big Bang;" Do you even have a rudimentary knowledge of what this means. "Time and energy came into being when the singularity began to expand. Time and space / energy are properties of the universe in which we have evolved from. No one knows what happens before Planck time. Time and Energy break down. Our physics does not work beyond this point.

THE CAUSE OF TIME IS OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSE. No! You can not simply assert a cause into existence. The universe began to expand and no one knows why. It is still expanding and no one knows why. We have no idea at all where it is expanding to. We have no idea, that I know of, where it came from or if it came from anyplace at all. You are engaged in a God of the Gaps fallacy. You do not get to assert your god into existence. You do not get to call time eternal and you do not get to call matter spiritual.

In theological terms, the faculty of a spirit is the power to produce ideas. HORSESHIT! My brain is not a spirit. Chemical interactions are not spirits. Brains are the origins of thoughts and ideas. Damage the brain and you damage the ideas. Brainwash the brain with theology and obviously you damage the brain. Oh Oh Oh! I get to use Marilyn's phrase here.

YOU ARE IN SERIOUS NEED OF AN ATHEIST STARTER KIT. (A BRAIN).

LogicFTW's picture
Wow.

Wow.

Stop giving some imaginary human created "god" idea (of which there is zero real evidence for,) credit for human advancement and human efforts to organize and understand the universe.

What is a mile, a foot, a meter? The universe is not rational this should be obvious, we humans try to make it rational to better understand it and have the universe work for us.

Sure, study god all you want. Make up your own answer as you go along because there is no grounding in actual verifiable fact. This silliness is further evidences by the thousands up thousands of different views on the details of "god." Just don't come here and think you actually have anything real to offer to an atheist board and to something Dawkins should actually consider as a rebuttal to what he presents.

What is logic? A human construct. Such order and logic requires HUMANS, not human created god idea to create logic.

 
 

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Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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Sheldon's picture
Yeah, you'll have to post the

@ GabrielSerafin

Yeah what's your point please, you'll have to post the gist in your own words, as I'm not watching a video link that is highly likely to be some angry theists giving another disjointed diatribe against RD because he's dared to question the empty bag of monotheistic belief. probably replete with assumption after assumption, and logical fallacies lined up in tandem.

As always, what objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?

GabrielSerafin's picture
It’s a 3 minute audio link.

It’s a 3 minute audio link. Listen to it, it’s quite constructive.

Sheldon's picture
GabrielSerafin " It’s a 3

GabrielSerafin " It’s a 3 minute audio link. Listen to it, it’s quite constructive."

I seriously doubt it, and if it's that short you should be able to offer up its main points in a sentence or two. This is a debate forum, so engage in some debate or find a pulpit, because if you want to preach at me, even for 3 minutes, then I'm not interested.

Again, what objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity.

Cognostic's picture
I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING ELSE.

I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING ELSE.

1. Richard is completely wrong because he gets the apple in the garden wrong.
Umm... Richard might not be up on Christian theology, yes we have no idea at all what the fruit was, but Roman tradition has long called it an apple. This is a bit of slippery-slope fallacy. "You don't know about the fruit in Genisis so you don't know about anything." Um.... Richard is a Biologist and not a Theist. On top of that, as the speaker suggests. The story is metaphorical. "SO WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES THE KIND OF FRUIT MAKE?" Obviously if the kind of fruit was important, "beyond being the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil" it's kind would have been mentioned.

2. The universe is the result of a meaningless accident. Straw-man fallacy. Calling the universe accidental does not make it so. "If god did not do it, it is an accident." False dichotomy fallacy. We don't understand everything but we do understand atomic interactions and physics. This is enough to explain the expansion of the universe - Big Bang. Beyond that not much can yet be said. Calling it an accident does not make it so;

3. There could be no such thing as good or evil if the universe is a meaningless accident. (If god did not create the universe.) No idea at all how you would prove this. It's akin to the assertion, God wrote good and evil on your hearts. Please share how you know this bizarre assertion.

4. Without this creation by god thing the life of a serial killer would be the same as the life of a philanthropist. Ummm ... No. Human beings are social animals and as such, getting along with one another is a primary survival adaptation. People who harm other people within the group are killed or banished, JUST LIKE TODAY. For religious cultures and non-religious cultures.

5. Your mind is made for truth. *Gross Assumption* Explain why children lie then. OH NO! Don't do that, the explanation will have something to do with evil spirits.

6. Free will is made for goodness. So Satan was actually being good, along with the host of angels, when he abandoned God? All he did was use his free will.

7. Thus murder is a misuse of the intellect and will. So why does your god spend so much time murdering? This misuse of the will is called sin. God is a sinning asshole by his own definition.

8. God is goodness and truth itself. I would assume he is thus even when he is butchering babies and raping women. So we have divine command theory. Anything God commands is Good. FUCK YOUR GOD. Most humans are more moral than the monster God of the bible. Dawkins gets this right. "“The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.”
― Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion

9. When we choose to sin we offend god and separate ourselves from him. (Please prove your god exists.) A god being offended by someone sinning is akin to me being offended by a skin mite who turned the wrong way. Foolishness.

10. NOW WE HAVE A LIST OF BULLSHIT ASSERTIONS.
a. God is the source of happiness and eternal life. Christians are no more happy than anyone else.
b. God made us for himself so we can share eternal life. (Mind reading.)
c. Our life on earth is a chance for us to choose to serve god.
d. Our purpose on earth is to know god.
e. Our purpose is to love god with all our heart.

11. We are back to the universe bubbling up accidentally. Please prove your assertion.

12. Everything in the Cosmos has a functional purpose. Interestingly, while we can ascribe functionality to pretty much anything, that does not imply purpose. Atomic or chemical interaction do not have the purpose of interacting with other chemicals or atomic structures and yet they do function that way. You are ascribing anthropomorphism to the universe. You must demonstrate "purpose" not assert it.

13. MORE INANE ASSERTIONS WITHOUT FACTS OR EVIDENCE.
a. Everything - long list of BS - all have a functional purpose. (Functions my be described; however, ascribing purpose to any of this must be proved.)
b. The purpose of our existence is to seek god. (UM - THAT'S WHY WE ARE ATHEISTS. GOD JUST AIN'T THERE.) We have looked and found him lacking.
c. God is Love. (More bullshit assertion.) Why does love kill babies?
d. Life without Love/God is a long line of meaningless entertainment which is a waste of time. (I LIKE WASTING MY TIME.) My entertainments are rarely meaningless. I am responding to this bullshit and I find it entertaining. If it wasn't, I would do something else.
e. There are truths we can know about this guys creator through the study of theology, ontology, teleology, (Not one Ontological or Teleological Apologetic has stood the test of time. All apologetics in these categories are based on fallacies of logic. All have been completely debunked. ALL OF THEM.

12. We are moving on to Biology. The theist knows more about DNA than Richard Dawkins. (I don't think so.)
a) DNA is a rational code. It all hinges on the definition of Code. "This question hinges on the definition of “code” and whether it is metaphorical when applied to DNA or whether it is technically identical to its use in human language. Until this question is addressed, this is nothing more than an empty assertion."
http://evo2.org/dna-atheists/dna-code/ Even if it is...... so what?

13. It is impossible for DNA or human language to bubble up accidentally. THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS IN EITHER CASE. One is chemical interactions and the other trial and error respectivly.

14. Our creator is an intelligent being. YOU DO NOT GET TO ASSERT A GOD INTO EXISTENCE. You do not get to assert purpose behind functionality of chemical interactions. Ascribing anthropomorphism does not make it so.

15. How we spend eternity depends on the state of our soul. Can you provide evidence for either concept, Eternity or Soul.

BULLSHIT ASSERTION PILED UPON BULLSHIT ASSERTION.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Cog

@ Cog

Kudos to you sire for actually listening to that most boring and fanciful rendering of a mish mash of theistic babble. Why technology is wasted on these kind of offerings I have no idea, and despair at the waste of a good education evident in this tirade.

In short thanks for the blow by blow dismantling of this persons arguments/assertions. I decided it was just another load of bollocks about 30 seconds in. At least, thanks to your critique I wont be tempted to infect my eardrums with it again.

Cognostic's picture
It was 2AM and I was not

It was 2AM and I was not sleeping. Sometimes we listen to Christian bullshit hoping for something new or different. Alas, disappointed once again. Same old shit century after century.

Calilasseia's picture
Oh dear, it's petunias time

Oh dear, it's petunias time again (readers of The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy will understand the reference) ...

The fact that the universe is comprehensible through the logical language of mathematics is a big fat clue that the source and cause of the universe is rational.

No it isn't. This is a basic fallacy that every mythology fetishist commits at some point or other. It's nothing more than the projection of our own intent and capabilites upon our surroundings, which was the means by which humans generated mythologies in the first place. Furthermore, several of our mythologies not only contain assertions to the effect that various fantastic magic entities exist, they also contain assertions to the effect that said magic entities can tell the laws of physics to take a hike, whenever it happens to be administratively convenient. Which, if that second assertion is true, means that the laws of physics are no longer the laws of physics by definition. But I'm familiar with the supernaturalist practice of trying to have one's cake and eat it simultaneously.

Quite simply, all that is needed for a set of interactions to be comprehensible, via mathematics or any other tool, is that they be reliably and repeatably mechanical. Gravity is pretty much as mindless a force as one could wish for, which at bottom only generates one interaction, namely, attraction between masses. But when the masses in question are large enough, other interactions can then come into play. Hello, nuclear fusion!

The problem is that you don’t go to a biologist to seek answers to your questions about astronomy

No kidding? Did anyone here ever assert that they did?

Theology is the study of God

This presumes that there's something to study, other the products of the rectal passages of the authors of mythologies. We're still waiting to see this presumption supported with something resembling genuine evidence, instead of the usual apologetic fabrications and attempts to conjure magic men into existence with rhetorical spells.

and it’s branches of Teleology and Ontology

BZZZZT! Elementary error!

Ontology is the philosophical inquiry into the nature of being. It has little to do with theology, as any reasonable course in philosophy will tell you, if you pay attention thereto.

Furthermore, teleology isn't a "branch of study", it's a blind assertion abut the world. Another of those blind assertions we've been waiting for millennia for supernaturalists to support with something other than apologetic fabrications and rhetorical spells.

study areas that biology does not

This once again presumes that there's something to study, other than the products of the rectal passages of the authors of mythologies.

But biology in itself is a testament to the harmony and order of nature.

Bollocks. Any actual tenured biologist will tell you that biology is possibly the messiest of the empirical sciences. A prime example of said messiness being the disjoint between Linnaean taxonomy and modern molecular phylogeny. Said disjoint starting to appear the moment palaeontologists started looking systematically and analytically at fossils, and becoming a yawning canyon the moment molecular phylogeny was seriously launched. Whilst the basic idea of a tree of life as embodied in Linnaean taxonomy was sound, he made the mistake of making his system a ranked system, though of course taxonomists had to start somewhere, and Linnaeus achieved much with what he had to start with. But by making his system a ranked system, the resulting taxonomy clashes badly with phylogeny. Of course, Linnaeus didn't have modern data to guide him, and I suspect he would have chosen a different approach to the higher taxonomic categories, if he had. But the mere fact that he accepted the relatedness of the members of the biosphere as an implicit fact in said taxonomy, was a major step forward, and of course, he also made valuable contributions to the discipline of comparative anatomy.

Trouble is, modern biologists are acutely aware, that the biosphere keeps throwing curve balls at us, with respect to the taxonomic desire to slot living organisms into neat and tidy categories. HeLa cells provide a particularly juicy example, of a single celled life form that has now achieved an unexpected degree of autonomy inside cell culture labs, but whose ancestors were cervical cancer cells from one Henrietta Lacks. Interestingly, despite that well-documented human origin, those cells have gone on to acquire wildly variant chromosome numbers, and in the process, they have acquired the ability to smother other cell cultures out of existence. Quite a few scientists experienced a "deep shit" moment when that was discovered. Some scientists now argue that those cells have achieved sufficient biological autonomy to warrant their own taxonomic designation. Adding to the fun and games are the various transmissible carcinomas found in some other species, with CTVT being possibly the canonical example. This is now a free-living sexually transmissible pathogen of dogs, but which started life as external carcinoma cells in an ancestral dog population. I'll leave prions aside for the moment, as these warrant an encyclopaedic treatment, such is the volume of data we now have on them, and I don't propose to turn this post into a 50,000 word dissertation on transmissible spongiform encephalopathies.

Harmony is not accidental

Ha ha ha ha ha. I'm aware of developments in computer science that flush this assertion down the toilet.

and such order requires logic.

Correction, it merely requires reliably repeatable mechanical interactions. Which can sometimes deliver surprises, as those computer scientists I've alluded to above will tell you.

Cognostic's picture
@Calilasseia

@Calilasseia
Another masterful retort.

Grinseed's picture
"It’s a 3 minute audio link.

"It’s a 3 minute audio link. Listen to it, it’s quite constructive."

Your supposedly loving god made me profoundly deaf.

No, don't bother belatedly providing a text.
Judging by the written comments it appears to be the same old apologist claims I am all too familiar with.
The evil is that your supposedly all-encompassing christian benevolence doesn't extend to providing text for those with handicaps even in this age of instant telecommunications.

I console myself that nature was being kind in sparing me the 3 minute aural waste of time.

arakish's picture
Well, I am glad I did not

Well, I am glad I did not waste more time than the word "apple" in that MP3 file. I already knew it was nothing more than a bunch bullshit and horse hoowhee thrown at beautiful home. You know, it gets tiresome cleaning up all the brain diarrhea theists dump here.

Thanks Cognostic. You are far braver than me to actually listen to that load crap.

rmfr

dogalmighty's picture
You present nothing that

You present nothing that tells me to believe in a god. I would like to believe in something that will take care of me and tell me I will live on for eternity...who wouldn't. But your reality is never what others tell you it is. Having committed to religion and fought for my faith, I understand where you are coming from...however my delusion was revealed by learning what was true, and what is not...not by ignoring reason. You may or may not shed your bias to be able to reason again without barrier...I hope so, as it seems humanity depends on it. If I were you, I would just monitor how many die from religion...especially on this day.

MarylinC's picture
@ GabrielSerafin

@ GabrielSerafin

Sounds to me like what you need is an atheist starter kit.

It's called a BRAIN.

Cognostic's picture
@MarylinC FFS - I hate it

@MarylinC FFS - I hate it when I snort my morning coffee out my nose and onto my keyboard. I'm stealing that one from you.
ROFLMAO!!!!

Kataclismic's picture
Without evidence, I don't

Without evidence, I don't think Richard will be listening... I'm certainly not.

GabrielSerafin's picture
Belief in God’s existence is

Belief in God’s existence is a rational ascent that reason demands, much like logic forces you right now to believe that the source behind this line of text you are reading right now has a rational source; after all, you are responding to this text.

The fact that the universe is comprehensible through the logical language of mathematics is proof that the cause behind the Big Bang is a rational source. Again, harmony and order is not accidental being that the key component of the property is logic. Without logic order is impossible.

The problem with atheism is that it is a futile psychological attempt to disprove reason, thus it renders otherwise smart people into unwise human beings. There’s a huge difference between being smart and being wise. In reality, atheism is a psychological condition— it’s certainly not a rational conclusion, no matter how much one attempts to ascertain it. A mental block if you will; in theological terms, a darkening of the intellect.

Sapporo's picture
@GabrielSerafin

@GabrielSerafin
The Big Bang is the earliest known event in the universe. That does not mean that it was the first event, nor does it mean that the universe had a beginning, unless you arbitrarily define the universe as "beginning" from that point. It is understandable to start a history from the earliest known event, but it would be wrong to assert things without evidence.

GabrielSerafin's picture
Sapporo Said:The Big Bang is

The universe exists in time, thus it had a beginning.

Sheldon's picture
"The universe exists in time,

"The universe exists in time, thus it had a beginning."

Both those claims are wrong. Time exists only because the physical universe exists, and did not exist prior to the big bang. The universe could also have existed prior to the big bang in a different state than we know see.

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity? The more you dodge this question the more I must infer the answer is none.

GabrielSerafin's picture
Sheldon said:Time exists only

Sheldon said:
Time exists only because the physical universe exists, and did not exist prior to the big bang.

Yes. This is exactly correct. This alone is logical evidence that the Cause of time and the physical universe is not physical or in time—in other words, the Cause is eternal (outside of time), and spiritual (non-physical). But don’t let the word spiritual confuse you; you must understand it from a theological definition.

Sheldon said:

The universe could also have existed prior to the big bang in a different state than we know see.

Yes, not only is this true, but it was necessary for the universe to exist prior to the Big Bang but NOT as a physical reality, but in a non-physical reality the same way that an invention exists in the mind of an inventor as an ideabefore he wraps his idea in physical matter.

Thus be introduced to the reality of what a spirit is. A “spirit” does not have a size, or a weight or a color, nor does it have parts or occupy space. We speak of a spirit in terms of its faculties, namely the power to produce ideas. Ideas are the most powerful realities that exist; it is the idea that can split the atom; the atom does not know itself to split itself.

Being that you were made in the “image and likeness of God”, this simply means that you have an intellect and a will; and you employ these faculties every day. For example, the time you made yourself a sandwich, you first had the idea of a sandwich before you willed it into existence when you actually made yourself the sandwich. The sandwich existed in your mind before it was a physical reality; likewise, everything in your room first existed as an idea in the minds of those who created them, before they were actually made and sold in stores for you to buy. If you are an artist, your idea exists in your mind before you will it into existence on a canvas; the driving force is purpose, order and design permeated with logic.

But the rationality behind the universe is not a man-made concept. The rationality behind the universe is real. Thus Greek philosophers grasped what they called Logos—that is, the rationality-or Logic that permeates nature and the cosmos itself. Thus in the New Testament the gospel of John begins with the reality of the Logos (In English translated as “The Word”). There we read:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and Word Was God . . . and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.” -John 1:1-2

GOD is the rationality behind the Cosmos, which is only comprehensible through logic. Thus only human beings become astronomers and physicists who decipher the universe through the logical language of mathematics. Your existence is more incredible than you have imagined. Everything is made up of comprehensible systems that are governed by laws; even you are made up of systems governed by laws. What you don’t want to do is put yourself in a psychological box of atheism, as it shuts down the search for the truth, in exchange for a psychological lashing against religion..

Sheldon said:
What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity? The more you dodge this question the more I must infer the answer is none.

The evidence is found in the realm of logic, thus there are a number of logical equations that verify the necessity of a higher eternal infinite Cause better described a Supreme Being. Simply look up and study the Argument of Contingency.

A rational universe is necessary for us to make logic out of it, thus the way the mind of man grasps the comprehensibility of the cosmos is by first defining the observable order as systems and laws.

What we call “GOD”, is necessary for the universe to exist, rationality and existence itself is contingent on a rational eternal existence; just as music, literature and art are contingent on man for them to exist.

Purpose, design and order are the fingerprints of rationality. You don’t need to find a label “Made in China” to determine if something you find on a beach is man-made. Nor do you need to observe or personally know the maker of the thing you found in order for you to be convinced that it was made by a rational mind.

Reason can detect the purpose, design and order through observation and logical deduction; thus archaeology, biology, astronomy, etc. study the observable purpose, design and order of the things they study, in order to grasp the truth.

Sheldon's picture
" This alone is logical

" This alone is logical evidence that the Cause of time and the physical universe is not physical or in time—in other words, the Cause is eternal (outside of time), and spiritual (non-physical). "

Cause? All you've done there is make another unevidenced assumption, this is again called a begging the question fallacy. Nothing can be asserted as rationally true if it contains a known logical fallacy, thus that assumption directly contradicts your opening assertion you are being logical. You also make another unevidenced assumption and woo woo assumption that the cause is "spiritual". care to demonstrate some objective evidence anything spiritual exist, or even can exist. We know natural phenomena are at least possible. So you're using a second logical fallacy, called argumentum ad ignorantiam.

"The universe could also have existed prior to the big bang in a different state than we know see.

Yes, not only is this true, but it was necessary for the universe to exist prior to the Big Bang but NOT as a physical reality, "

No no no, you are going from me positing that something is unknown and therefore we cannot rule out the possibility, to you making yet another unevidenced assertion. Your bias in favour of your religious beliefs is driving to pile such assertions one atop the other. This not remotely rationally.

"The evidence is found in the realm of logic,"

Except you prove with every post, and every new logical fallacy you invoke that you haven't even the most basic grasp of logic. That statement alone is dubious, logic isn't objective evidence, it is simply a method of reasoning that adheres to strict principles of validation. Whilst it makes your assertion far more likely to be valid, it is not in itself objective evidence. Besides you're not using logic, you invoking logical fallacies again and again.

"What we call “GOD”, is necessary for the universe to exist,"

No it isn't, and nor is it "we". I have seen no evidence demonstrated nor have I heard any rationally argument for any deity.

"You don’t need to find a label “Made in China” to determine if something you find on a beach is man-made. "

This assumption of design argument is asinine. Your claims everything is designed, thus if your belief had any validity then nothing anywhere could be evidenced as anything but "designed." To properly infer something is designed requires objective evidence of that fact, and there is also a simple distinction one can make based on such evidence, and that is that we never see evidence of design in anything that occurs naturally. You're using a version of Paley's watchmaker fallacy, but we know watches are made because we see designs for them and factories that makes them, and of course they never occur naturally.

"Reason can detect the purpose, design and order through observation and logical deduction; "

No it can't - Hitchens's razor applied as this is just another unevidenced claim.

"archaeology, biology, astronomy, etc. study the observable purpose, design and order of the things they study, in order to grasp the truth."

Fine please link all the peer reviewed research from those fields that evidences design in nature? Only amazingly this paradigm shifting scientific evidence seems to have escaped the attention of the entire world, nothing on any major news network, I just checked? No worthy peer reviewed scientific publication anywhere carrying this earth shattering news?

In case I'm being too subtle here, this is because you just made up a lie about scientific evidence, don;t feel too bad as theists worshipping a variety of deities line up on here, and elsewhere to trot out this cliched theistic canard.

Once again - what OBJECTIVE evidence can you demonstrate for any deity?

Cognostic's picture
If God exists, thus a

If God exists, thus a beginning. You don't get to make up laws for the universe and then refuse to follow them. Quit being moronic.

GabrielSerafin's picture
Again, in order for something

Again, in order for something to have a beginning it must exist in time. Science will tell you that time and matter came into existence with the Big Bang, thus the Cause is Outside of time, hence God had no beginning, He is Eternal (Outside of Time)

Sheldon's picture
GabrielSerafin "Again, in

GabrielSerafin "Again, in order for something to have a beginning it must exist in time. "

A direct contradiction of what you said here:

GabrielSerafin Yes, not only is this true, but it was necessary for the universe to exist prior to the Big Bang"

http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/open-audio-letter-rich...

"thus the Cause is Outside of time, hence God had no beginning, He is Eternal (Outside of Time)"

Assumption one is to imply a cause was need, demonstrate objective evidence for this claim you keep making please. Assumption two is that this cause is a deity, demonstrate objective evidence for this claim please, and this time do it without using your appeal to ignorance fallacy. Assumption 3 is that this deity is the one you believe exists - again please demonstrate objective evidence of this claim. Assumption 4 is that this deity is the version you believe in, and once again then please demonstrate some objective evidence to support the belief. Assumption 5 that this deity is eternal, assumption 6 it exists outside of time, and once again please do demonstrate objective evidence for these assumptions.

What objective evidence can you demonstrate for any deity.

Cognostic's picture
@GabrielSerafin

@GabrielSerafin "Science will tell you that time and matter came into existence with the Big Bang,"

NO! Science will not say that. Scientists have postulated that OUR VERSION of time came into existence at the "Big Bang." (When the universe began to expand.) No one has ever said anything about what was or was not, could be or might be, beyond Planck Time. How many times do you need to be told the simple truth. Your God of the Gaps is fallacious. Your assertions inane.

You do not get to assert anything outside of time. It is a moronic proposition. No time and a thought can not occur. Nothing can move from point 'A' to point 'B' . No action can happen in a timeless universe by definition. Your God can neither act nor think. A timeless god is a moronic proposition at best. For how long was he timeless before he started time? Not only do you not understand what you are saying about your god but you know nothing at all about Big Bang Cosmology.

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