A Proposal for Criticism

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arakish's picture
A Proposal for Criticism

This is based on something that hit me in response to another thread by a user no longer whith us...

myusernamekthx

Something from nothing or a past-eternal something?

This is a question for the atheists here.

What is more plausible to you: that the natural world (matter and energy) was produced by literally nothing (i.e. nonbeing)--or that the natural world, including all its processes, extends infinitely into the past such that there is no moment where one can say "there was no matter and energy causally prior to this moment."?

arakish (me)

Tin-Man: I still prefer my ginormous Cosmic Bunnies theory.

So do I. At least it is more plausible than anything s/he has presented.

Here is something for y'all's consideration.

What happens when you are close to a massive gravitational force? Time dilation, right?

Well, if you take the "entire" universe of mass (hell, include the hypothetical dark matter and dark energy if you want) and compress it into an infinite singularity? Don't you get a true infinite gravity source? If time slows as you approach a true infinite gravity source, won't time itself become infinitely dilated to the point it is stopped, or becomes infinite? If time becomes infinite at an infinite gravity source, that means the universe IS infinitely old. It has ALWAYS existed. Just that it is in an "expanded state" at this current occurrence.

rmfr

========================================

Tin-Man

@Arakish Re: Infinity explanation

Ouch. I think I just sprain my noodle. May need a second cup of coffee before trying to handle that. Still freakin' cool, though.

========================================

Now I elaborate a little more. Please realize I am NOT a professional Astrophysicist. However, Astrophysics has been a life-long hobby, and I have had a quite a few college classes. In fact, my first degree was in Geology with Astrophysics as a Minor.

According to the Laws of Physics (Natural World) as we currently understand them, a Black Hole is infinitely dense and infinitely massive. Let us just assume that as one approaches the Event Horizon, he is somehow protected from the effect of "spaghettification." Although we know of no way to prevent spaghettification, for this thought experiment, let's assume it can be. As one approaches the Event Horizon, time dilates, or slows down. To an observer from the "outside," the person approaching the Event Horizon appears to slow down. Once he gets to the Event Horizon, to the outside observer, he slows down to a literal stop. He appears to take "forever" to cross the Event Horizon.

However, from the relative perspective of the one approaching the Event Horizon, time appears normal and the universe seems to speed up. He eventually does cross the Event Horizon and continues on to the singularity. Remember, this singularity is infinitely dense and infinitely massive; thus, it also has infinite gravity. If a massive gravity source slows down time, then once the singularity is achieved, the infinite gravity infinitely dilates time until it is infinitely slowed. Basically, time becomes infinite.

According to the Big Bang Theory, which I prefer to call the Universal Expansion Theory, EVERYTHING within the universe as we know it today existed in a Singularity that is infinitely more massive and infinitely more dense than any Black Hole. In fact, all those Black Holes would also be infinitely compressed into this Singularity. Basically, you can look at this Infinite Point of Singularity as being the largest form of all Infinities: Infinity raised to infinity ad infinitum.

In other words, this Infinite Point of Singularity would cause Time itself to become infinite. And if Time is infinite, that would mean that the universe IS infinitely old and has ALWAYS existed.

Now, where is your God?

rmfr

P.S. — Shame myusernamekthx ain't around to see this... But everyone here can have fun tearing this apart.

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Tin-Man's picture
Damn, Arakish. Too bad we can

Damn, Arakish. Too bad we can't get a few of us all together and get wasted and spend a day having a deep philosophical discussion about that. I don't have any real formal schooling in that area, but I have always had in interest in such things. For me it is always fun to contemplate all the wonders of the cosmos.

Nyarlathotep's picture
arakish - Although we know of

arakish - Although we know of no way to prevent spaghettification, for this thought experiment, let's assume it can be.

Just a side note: you can avoid spaghettification by using a very large black hole.

Nyarlathotep's picture
arakish - ...this [black hole

arakish - ...this [black hole] singularity is infinitely dense and infinitely massive...

An infinite mass black hole would contain an infinite amount of information and would have an infinitely large event horizon (surface area). Which is not the kind of black holes astronomers work with.

Terminal Dogma's picture
Guys if you want to know how

Guys if you want to know how I created the universe just ask.

Tin-Man's picture
@Term-dog Re: "Guys if you

@Term-dog Re: "Guys if you want to know how I created the universe just ask."

Did you use a double-vortex dilithium crystal generator with the quadruple hamstring extender modification for sub-light gravitational field enhancement? Because that is how I would have done it.

Terminal Dogma's picture
Do you mean the old

Do you mean the old mechanical version with the wooden crank handle?

Used that in some early prototype universes but it produced too much Dark matter. I deleted most of the dark matter produced but thought it would be funny to leave some layinng around to keep the geeks amused for a few centuries.

Tin-Man's picture
@Term-dog Re: "Do you mean

@Term-dog Re: "Do you mean the old mechanical version with the wooden crank handle?"

Wow! You had one with a wooden crank handle? Man, I'm jealous. All I have is a crappy foot pump on mine. Well, at least I don't have the excessive dark matter problems yours seems to have. I heard that was common in the newer models. The biggest problem I have with mine (other than the damn foot pump) is sometimes too many quasars come out all at once in the same quadrant. You know the headaches THAT can cause, I'm sure. And those little bastards can be a real pain in the ass to gather back up once they get loose. Have to wear extra thick gloves for that job.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TD & TM

@ TD & TM

I wish you would tidy up after yourself. Always leaving your leftovers lying about for me to trip over...*stops grumbling* OMG! They're BREEDING...come here and clear up TD, that is disgusting! And your Da wants to know where his crank handle is AGAIN...cant you put things back when you "borrow" them? ...*goes off mumbling*. I don't know, I wanted Him to study to be a War god, but oh no ... "Mam I want to be a creator, I want to be worshipped" I'll give him worshipped with this broom handle across his arse unless he tidies up....look at that, cosmic goo on me shoe now...tsk tsk....

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: "look at that,

@Old Man Re: "look at that, cosmic goo on me shoe now...tsk tsk...."

Alright, alright! I'll try to tidy up a bit more! Sheesh! Nag, nag, nag.... But I'm not taking the blame for the goo. You will have to take that up with the Cosmic Bunnies....*turns to walk away*......*squish*.... Awww, maaaannnn.... Ewwww...! *looking back over shoulder*... Yes, please do have a talk with those damn bunnies. *grumbling to self*...Brand new pair of shoes ruined...*grumble-grumble*

Terminal Dogma's picture
I don't want to be worshipped

I don't want to be worshipped, I demand it. I built Infinity torture place for those that don't choose to worship me.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ TD well your "Infinity

@ TD well your "Infinity torture place" is in the bin. It fell apart when I was dusting. Flimsy. I wondered where all the cereal packets were going. You sister Aphrodite got covered in cheerios the other day. Anyway its gone and good riddance. Why cant you build a nice hunting ground like that nice classmate of yours Manitou. Keeps him occupied for hours and it doesn't fill the house with smoke and screams.
@ TM
Come and get your Quasars, they are in a box by the back door covered in that old green mossy thing you wrapped yourself in for Halloween. I cant keep them for you they are far too noisy and scatter all over the place. I can hardly sleep with all that buzzing and I'm sick of cleaning around them.

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man Re: Quasars

@Old Man Re: Quasars

Aw, shit. Sorry about that. Thanks for taking care of them, though. I knew I was missing a few, but didn't know where they went. I'll be by to get them later.

Oh, by the way, you haven't by chance noticed a stray black hole passing by recently, have you?... *rubbing back of neck*... Uh, yeah, a little embarrassing, but, uhhh, well, ya see, whattuh-happened-wuz... Uh, Term-dog dared me to thump one toward the Horse Head Nebula just to see what would happen.... and, well, I must have thumped it a little too hard, because it shot right past it and.... uh, yeah, I lost sight of it. Anyway, if you spot it, please let me know.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@TM

@TM
I think its in the neighbours yard. I heard Cerberus barking yesterday and I went and had a look, but it was dark so I couldn't see much. Anyhoo you had better bring some star stuff to replace the damage with you as Zeus is pissed off as it not only ate Cerberus but Mt Olympus as well. He's blaming Loki,,so look out when they find out it was you...

Tin-Man's picture
@Old Man

@Old Man

Awww, crap!....*face palm*.... *hanging head in shame*.....*talking to self*...Wonder if there is any chance I can talk Loki into taking the blame?...*turns to run back toward home*... *yelling*... Hey! Term-dog! Do you have Loki's number handy?....

Cognostic's picture
@ arakish "Something from

@ arakish "Something from nothing or a past-eternal something?"

Why bother elaborating? The question sets up a false dichotomy. Cosmic universe creating bunnies are just as good an answer as God. The universe may have come from a mommy universe. The universe may be part of a matrix of dimensional universes. NO ONE KNOWS. That is the answer.

In the land of "IF" anything is possible. If you take the "entire" universe of mass and compress it into an infinite singularity, "YOU GET COSMIC BUNNIES, JARS OF UNIVERSE CREATING PEANUT BUTTER AND MAGIC BANANAS.

Tin-Man's picture
@Cog

@Cog

Well, I guess that explains why peanut butter covered bananas are the favorite snack of the Cosmic Bunnies. Hmm.... Learn something new every day.

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