A Question For Supernaturalists

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Cognostic's picture
@Jo: This is how theists

@Jo: This is how theists have learned to discuss things. They support one assertion with another assertion and the second assertion with a third and down the rabbit hole they go without ever landing on an actual fact or real evidence.

Kafei's picture
I think it's a mistake I've

I think it's a mistake I've seen atheists often make to define the supernatural as that "which is not natural" or that which "defies the laws of physics." I've heard AronRa do this, Matt Dillahunty, and many atheists I've personally encountered. The prefix "super" means above, or transcendent of, and it's not like the prefix "a-" in atheism, to mean "without" or "not." It is not the negation of the natural, but an expression of transcendence as Frithjof Schuon rightly pointed out, it is the mystical experience of the mystic in which they have an experience that is outside of space and time within a phenomenon in consciousness, Schuon called it the "supernaturally natural kernel of the individual." I also brought up this point on Truth Wanted, because it's a major misconception many atheists hold.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Kafei - I think it's a

Kafei - I think it's a mistake I've atheists often make to define the supernatural as that "which is not natural" or that which "defies the laws of physics...it's a major misconception many atheists hold."

Supernatural - 1) of, relating to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.

If that definition is a misconception, then it seems the misconception is widespread (enough that it is listed as the first usage in this dictionary); widespread enough that it seems this misconception has little or nothing to do with atheism.

Kafei's picture
That first entry in the

That first entry in the dictionary is completely compatible with what I've said. Emphasis on the word "above" or "beyond" what is natural. It's not defined as "a-natural" meaning that which is "not natural" or that "defies the laws of physics."

Nyarlathotep's picture
When I tell someone the store

When I tell someone the store is beyond end the of the block, I mean it isn't in the set of buildings contained in the block. When I say a cloud is above the troposphere, it means the cloud is not part of the troposphere.

When you say something is beyond or above the natural; it sure seems like you are saying it is not natural (whatever that means). Since that isn't what you mean, perhaps you should use a different term to prevent this confusion.

Kafei's picture
Sure, but unfortunately these

Sure, but unfortunately these terms have taken foothold. I really do think neologisms would clear this up, but this is what we have to deal with. For instance, I follow the research at Johns Hopkins relative to what they're calling a "complete" mystical experience very closely, and this term "mystical experience" has been the source of great confusion for a lot people, but we've got to make do with what we've got. A lot of it does boil down to semantic argument.

Calilasseia's picture
Oh dear. Let's take a look at

Oh dear. Let's take a look at this shall we?

I think it's a mistake I've seen atheists often make to define the supernatural as that "which is not natural" or that which "defies the laws of physics."

Actually, what you will find, if you bother to do your research, is that this is how a good many supernatualists themselves define "supernatural". Indeed, some of the more febrile Christian fundamentalists in the USA actively rail against testable natural processes, despite the demonstrable success of these in providing explanations for relevant classes of entities and phenomena. In short, these are people who think the universe runs on magic. All that has happened, is that atheists, including the two you have cited, have taken this position on the part of supernaturalists at face value, and based their critique on the fact that said supernaturalists hold this view.

The prefix "super" means above, or transcendent of, and it's not like the prefix "a-" in atheism, to mean "without" or "not." It is not the negation of the natural, but an expression of transcendence

Once again, you have the observational data from those supernaturalists I cited above to contend with here, and the fact that critique of the view that they expound arises not from atheist fabrication, but from honest addressing of supernaturalist assertions. Of course, there's the additional problem that all too frequently, attempts to find out what supernaturalists actually think, leads to the conclusion that they haven't actually given their ideas much thought at all, because they are completely unaware of problems arising from their own, frequently naive and ill-considered, definitions.

By the way, your apologetics above is, at bottom, more of the same failure to apply rigour to the matter. What you are asserting with this 'transcendence' sophistry and rhetorical spell, is that natural processes are somehow confined to a limited arena of action, beyond which they cannot operate, and that purportedly "supernatural" processes are therefore needed to operate outside that arena of action. And in doing so, you are asserting directly, that said "supernatural" processes are not natural. It doesn't matter how much word salad you spin off this assertion to try and avoid that conclusion, that conclusion is plain to see by anyone who has bothered to pay attention in class.

it is the mystical experience of the mystic in which they have an experience that is outside of space and time within a phenomenon in consciousness

And right on cue, here comes the very meaningless word salad to try and avoid that conclusion. First of all, you have the problem of defining precisely what is actually meant by being "outside of space and time", a task that serious thinkers realised some time ago opens up all manner of cans of worms if not approached with care. Second, just because something occurs in the television inside someone's head, doesn't mean for one moment that said occurrence is anything other than a mental hologram, with no actual concrete substance outside the firing of the requisite neurons.

In the case of the second objection above to your word salad, I can point to a very specific instance of my own, where, in 1994, I was taken to hospital suffering from meningococcal meningitis. During my tenure at said hospital, I noticed that my recorded body temperature was 104°F, which is not a good temperature for the human brain to operate at. Indeed, when one's neurons are being slowly cooked in such a high fever, interesting aberrations of normal cognitive processing start coming to the fore, including some fairly juicy hallucinations. In my case, the hallucination that chose to enter stage left, as it were, centred upon me seeing the nurse taking my various medical statistics as a six foot tall cockroach. Now at this point, quite a few people would probably have leapt out of the bed screaming upon seeing a sight of this nature, but in my case, having spent a significant part of my adult life studying invertebrate zoology, left me lying there instead thinking "I know that this isn't for real, but while I'm seeing this weirdness, I might as well put it to good use", whereupon I started asking myself what species of cockroach I was hallucinating. I spent an interesting half hour trying to make sense of the anatomical details of my hallucinated six foot cockroach, but the antibiotics and anti-fever meds kicked in before I arrived at a conclusion.

Now I don't even need to be an invertebrate zoologist, or have familiarity with the underlying physiology of insects, to know that six foot cockroaches aren't real entities, at least, not in the present day, though the Carboniferous era could have produced some oversized ancestral ones for palaeontologists to dig up. But, said knowledge came in pretty handy for handling that hallucination with a certain degree of equanimity. I now know that if I don't handle a similar situation in future with the same aplomb, then I'll be in truly serious medical trouble.

Indeed, so hilarious was my previous rendition of this episode elsewhere, that I can now guarantee a smile, whenever I am confronted by someone claiming to have some "mystical" visions in that particular arena, and reply to them with "Do I have to hit you over the head with my six foot cockroach?" I have much fun breaking this out whenever the occasion warrants, and you have merely been the latest in a long line of unsuspecting individuals who have tripped the requisite wire.

Oh, and given some of the, shall we say, interesting entities that have put in an appearance during my dreams, which have included my aquarium fish leaving their tank and swimming around in mid-air, it's safe to say that when it comes to the generation of some truly left-field virtual reality CGI, my endorphins are quality ones. As a corollary, I have a nice body of data to the effect that said endorphins are probably overactive in certain individuals, when they start imagining that they're seeing someone in white robes floating in front of them. Though the truly imaginative would, instead of talking to the laughable caricature Aryan Jesus that has been doing the rounds of European art for 500 years, be holding conversations with hovering trilobites or overgrown Warnowiids, which, I shall inform you at this point, are far weirder real life organisms than anything dreamt up by weed-heads. What you have in the case of Warnowiids, is, in effect, a group of plants with eyeballs, though they're actually microscopic in size. Before you ask how a single celled plant can have an eyeball, yes, it is possible, and what's more, that eyeball is comparable in sophistication to the vertebrate eye. Oh, of course, being single celled, Warnowiids don't have a brain to process the visual data. Scientists are still working out how they do this.

So, in short, I've seen enough natural weirdness to know that supernaturalist fabrications are, in general, woefully dull in comparison. Don't make the mistake of asking me about invertebrate sex lives unless you want to blow an artery reading my account.

And with that, it's time for me to move on. No, I am not smoking illicit hallucinogens, the diligent can check all of the above with relatively little effort if they so wish.

Kafei's picture
And with that, it's time for

And with that, it's time for me to move on. No, I am not smoking illicit hallucinogens, the diligent can check all of the above with relatively little effort if they so wish.

First of all, psychedelics aren't required to elicit these type of experiences. Second of all, I am a supernaturalist, and I don't find or relate my understanding of the supernatural in the very elaborate ways you've described. For me, it's no different than what I've explained on freethoughtblogs for The Atheist Experience. AronRa describes this sort of sense of the so-called "supernatural" as that which "defies physics." He, like you, is defining God as something necessarily something that can never be demonstrated.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

Try READING Calli's answer to you. It is plain and clear you did only but skim.

Please don't do the whole word salad in defense of the indefensible. It has become something that induces a state of ennui. Produce some evidence or drink some fluoride, neat.

boomer47's picture
@Callisasseia

@Callisasseia

I've had a mystical experience, kind of, but not really, although the experience was amazing.

I was about 25, long parted with the church. Walking after work, the mile to where I parked my car, "thumb in bum, mind in neutral"as my drill sergeant used to say . I suddenly, unexpectedly solved a zen koan. I had pretty much forgotten it was even there.

Anyway, I became hyper aware of my surroundings , I KNEW all kinds of things I had not known a moment ago. This wonderful experience lasted for about 20 minutes then faded, taking the answer to the koan with it. . Never to return.

Oh, I have never taken illegal drugs Ok, weed, once in 1978 , years later. Made me violently ill.

I remain very fond of Occam's razor. I have not needed to suppose a supernatural (or alien) cause for ANYTHING in nearly 50 years.

Kafei's picture
@Old man I did read it. She

@Old man I did read it. She thought I was responding with word salad, but mystical states of consciousness are well established in the scientific literature. Especially what these professionals are calling a "complete" mystical experience.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Kafei

@ Kafei

There are no "mystical" states of consciousness. Here is the actual definition of "mystical" as you are trying to use it: From the Cambridge Dictionary: mystical
adjective UK ​ /ˈmɪs.tɪ.kəl/ US ​ /ˈmɪs.tɪ.kəl/ also mystic
​relating to the belief that there is hidden meaning in life, or that each human being can unite with God

From the Oxford English Dictionary:
mystical
ADJECTIVE
1.Relating to mystics or religious mysticism.
‘the mystical theology of Richard Rolle’
1.1Having a spiritual symbolic or allegorical significance that transcends human understanding.
‘the mystical body of Christ’
1.2 Relating to ancient religious mysteries or other occult or esoteric rites.
‘the mystical practices of the Pythagoreans’
1.3Of hidden or esoteric meaning.
‘a geometric figure of mystical significance’

I cannot see using any of the above definitions that your opening sentence "mystical state of consciousness" is anything but meaningless.

Define CLEARLY the state of consciousness and we can move forward. So far everything you have said revolves around a "drug induced hallucinatory state of consciousness" which is an accurate description.

If you have a more accurate description then please do share and stop fucking using terms that are ill defined or just bullshit. There are so many visitors to these forums that think they are a fucking Humpty Dumpty when they use terms that are ultimately meaningless.

Be clear, define, use terms that are definable,found in a dictionary, or you are spouting shite. Please dont point me to a site you have already used as a definition by an obscure person attempting to redefine a perfectly good word that, when used in a sentence as you have done, cannot make any sense.

Oh and Calli writes very clearly. Something you should note, and perhaps copy if you want to have any credibility. So far you are going backwards.

Cognostic's picture
Old man Shouts & Kafei:

Old man Shouts & Kafei:

I want to specifically draw your attention to the definitions offered by Cambridge Dictionary and Oxford English Dictionary. The word "Mystical" is not defined in any way by either text. All the dictionaries do is point to common usage with no "definition" at all.

Cambridge Dictionary: mystical
adjective UK ​ /ˈmɪs.tɪ.kəl/ US ​ /ˈmɪs.tɪ.kəl/ also mystic
​relating to the belief that there is hidden meaning in life, or that each human being can unite with God

A hidden meaning in life? What meaning? A Christian meaning, a Buddhist meaning. Jo's meaning, a Mormon meaning. P. D. Ouspenski's meaning, Jane Robert's Seth's meaning, a Hindu meaning??? WTF - Invent your own meaning. THERE IS NOTHING HEAR RELATED TO ANYTHING AT ALL DEFINED.

" "Definitions that fail to have merit because they are overly broad, use obscure or ambiguous language, or contain circular reasoning are called fallacies of definition." THIS OBSCURE AMORPHOUS COMMENT, PRINTED IN THE OXFORD DICTIONARY AS A DEFINITION, IS IN FACT, FALLACIOUS BULLSHIT.

From the Oxford English Dictionary: *BULLSHIT PILED ON BULLSHIT IN A CIRCULAR FALLACY: Circularity: If one concept is defined by another, and the other is defined by the first, this is known as a circular definition, akin to circular reasoning: neither offers enlightenment about what one wanted to know.

EXAMPLE: "Jew" as "a person believing in Judaism", and "Judaism" as "the religion of the Jewish people",

mystical
ADJECTIVE
1.Relating to mystics or religious mysticism. (THE WORD MYSTIC IS USED IN THE DEFINITION - BULLSHIT CIRCULARITY.) the mystical theology of Richard Rolle’ (NOTHING IS DEFINED HERE).

1.1Having a spiritual symbolic or allegorical significance that transcends human understanding. DEFINING ONE OBSCURE AND UNKNOWN TERM WITH ANOTHER UNKNOWN AND OBSCURE TERM. DEFINING WOO WOO WITH WOO WOO. THIS IS HORSESHIT. IN THIS CASE MYSTICISM IS DEFINED WITH SPIRITUALITY, AND EQUALLY AMORPHOUS TERM THAT HAS NEVER BEEN SUFFICIENTLY DEFINED. (Unless you are talking about alcohol).
‘the mystical body of Christ’ (AS IF CALLING A BODY MYSTICAL MEANS ANYTHING AT ALL.)

1.2 Relating to ancient religious mysteries or other occult or esoteric rites.
‘the mystical practices of the Pythagoreans’ (WHAT MYSTICAL PRACTICES? THERE WE GO AGAIN. DEFINING THE WORD WITH THE VERY SAME WORD. MYSTICISM HAS NOT BEEN DEFINED. IT HAS ONLY BEEN RELATED TO AN EXPANSIVE EXAMPLE OF RELIGIOUS PRACTICES THAT CAN NOT POSSIBLY BE CATEGORIZED EVALUATED OR EVEN UNDERSTOOD. (NOT YET ANYWAY.)

1.3Of hidden or esoteric meaning. (IF IT IS HIDDEN, HOW IN THE HELL IS IT MYSTIC OR SPIRITUAL. OBVIOUSLY IT IS HIDDEN. NO ONE HAS SEEN IT AND IT CERTAINLY CAN NOT BE SEEN, MEASURED, DEFINED. WHY NOT JUST SAY "I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE FUCK IT IS/" AT LEAST THAT WOULD BE HONEST.

‘a geometric figure of mystical significance’ DO I HAVE TO DO THIS AGAIN. IT'S MYSTICAL BECAUSE ITS MYSTIC. BULLSHIT. THERE ARE NO DEFINITIONS HERE.

Kafei: DEFINE YOUR TERMS OR SIMPLY ADMIT THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A FRIGGING CLUE WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. WHAT IS IT YOU ARE CALLING MYSTICAL? YOU SAID THERE WAS A CONCRETE DEFINITION. WE ARE ALL STILL WAITING....

rat spit's picture
Do your research, Kafei. “She

Do your research, Kafei. “She” is a “he”. Meaning “she” more than likely is the owner of a penis. Whether or not that penis is circumcised remains to be seen. However; I am eager to know. The scholastic nature of his posts do indeed evoke the question - is he cut? Or is he not cut?

Yes. I’m back. I’ve brought penis references.

You know (not to derail the topic) - but I got stoned last weekend and “damn!” - that gunja sure makes a person introspective.

I examined my whole being and found it to be detestable - with the occasional glimpse of goodness in the midst of it all.

Still feeling introspective after five days. How long does that shit stay in one’s system?

And .... back to topic ...

J.Rain's picture
Problem is you make the

Problem is you make the mistake of trying to reason with God. Maybe God didn’t reveal everything because we were meant to discover and unravel the mysteries ourselves in order to reach the next level of consciousness.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Jordan

@ Jordan

we were meant to discover and unravel the mysteries ourselves in order to reach the next level of consciousness.

Really? What the fuck is the next level?
Do you know?
Does it exist, have you evidence?

Who the blue fuck gave you the right to translate the 'ineffables' wishes desires and plans?

boomer47's picture
@Jordan

@Jordan

"Problem is you make the mistake of trying to reason with God. "

Problem is you keep trying to argue god into existence. Has never been done so far.

I have not tried to argue with god since I was about 8.

I have been unable to argue with god for over 40 years. That was when I finally realised I no longer believed in the existence of god(s)

"Maybe God didn’t reveal everything because we were meant to discover and unravel the mysteries ourselves in order to reach the next level of consciousness."

And maybe there is a chartreuse teapot, invisible to the naked eye and telescope, orbiting our sun. That I can't prove it is there and you can't prove it is not, does not necessarily mean it is not there***

See, easy as pie to make ridiculous claims, just as you have done, with your vaguely esoteric claims about 'levels of consciousness' (Hindu?)

All I see are some claims which may reflect your personal superstitions . I have no quarrel about anything you choose to believe.

However, if you want me to share your beliefs, it will first be necessary for you to provide proof of the existence of your god (after you have defined what YOU mean by 'god' )

(((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((9)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

RUSSELL'S TEAPOT

Russell's teapot is an analogy, formulated by the philosopher Bertrand Russell (1872–1970), to illustrate that the philosophic burden of proof lies upon a person making unfalsifiable claims, rather than shifting the burden of disproof to others.

Russell specifically applied his analogy in the context of religion.[1] He wrote that if he were to assert, without offering proof, that a teapot, too small to be seen by telescopes, orbits the Sun somewhere in space between the Earth and Mars, he could not expect anyone to believe him solely because his assertion could not be proven wrong.

Russell's teapot is still invoked in discussions concerning the existence of God, and has had influence in various fields and media.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

Cognostic's picture
@Jordan: Yes Jordan that

@Jordan: Yes Jordan that must be it. Wow, you are so smart. Why didn't we think of that? "God does not want to reveal everything." "We aren't meant to discover or unravel the mysteries." Well, fuck. I guess I will commence sitting on my ass in a pew and just let the preacher tell me what the world is really like. Perhaps I will even repeat the fifth grade again. Hey! Is the desk next to yours open?

Flatland's picture
A supernaturalist would be an

A supernaturalist would be an atheist confessing there is the supernatural.

I'm spiritual.

Sheldon's picture
"A supernaturalist would be

"A supernaturalist would be an atheist confessing there is the supernatural.

I'm spiritual."

Hilarious as ever, please do explain how the lack or absence of belief in a supernatural deity (atheism) makes one a supernaturalist, when supernatural is defined as "some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature"? Or if you prefer, reverse your position and demonstrate objective evidence for a deity, a deity you are now implying is natural, and therefore falsifiable by science? You do know that spiritual is defined as "opposed to material or physical things"? How exactly is that not "super-natural"?

Dear of dear but you talk nonsense.

Sheldon's picture
Jo "If it ever was

Jo "If it ever was "ethnocentric" it stopped being that 2,000 years ago."

Are you saying your bible's reflection of your deity's perfectly objective morality has changed? And just two millennia ago after over the eternity of its existence? The bible claims "god" doesn't change?

Oh dear, what a shocking own goal Jo.

LogicFTW's picture
***Repost at end of thread***

***Repost at end of thread***

@Jo

"Do you have any, or know of any evidence about the claim that God doses not exist?"

Do you have any, or know of any evidence about the claim that logicftw God doses(sic) not exist?

"Do you have any, or know of any evidence about the claim that God's existence or non-existence cannot be known?"

Do you have any, or know of any evidence about the claim that logicftw God's existence or non-existence cannot be known?

I can do this all day.

dogalmighty's picture
As always, brilliant, concise

As always, brilliant, concise, reason based logic, and wonderful to read. I can add this, although I am sure you know this immutable law of our universe. "for something to exist in reality, it has to have, or interact with, matter.", Hence why no clear objective evidence of any god, exists.

David Killens's picture
If you cannot provide

If you cannot provide empirical evidence, then you cannot prove a god exists.

demolitionman's picture
you are all a bunch of

[lol, post and user removed -Nyarlathotep]

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ DM

@ DM

Fuck Mr Markuz. You are a twat.

Nyarlathotep's picture
He's getting more slick, took

He's getting more slick, took more than 5 seconds to spot him this time, as he apparently has inserted some new word salad at the top of his standard spam post. And sadly with all the word salad that gets posted around here, it isn't an immediate red flag.

Tin-Man's picture
@Nyar

@Nyar

...* confused look*...Wait... What?... Hold on... What the hell did I just miss?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Oh it was just that well

Oh it was just that well known troll dude; the one who goes on an on about Nostradamus and James Randi, then starts making death threats.

https://www.google.com/search?q=nostradamous+randi+site%3Aatheistrepubli...

dogalmighty's picture
Death threat guy? Well that's

Death threat guy? Well that's nice. Why are there lots of folk, that fail at basic reason, visiting us atheists? (that was a rhetorical question).

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