Need advise, and a little bit of venting. My husband and I have been dealing with is religious ex wife (divorced 4 years ago) and mother of his now 5 year old son hitting/spanking child as punishment leaving marks lasting for days/weeks. At first mother was proud because she was carrying out her fundamental beliefs spare the rod spoil the child. She gave police a video sermon that said she must do it to save him from hell or she hates him. She texted father she would never be swayed from her beliefs and that speaking against a parent is a capital offense in god’s law. She was prosecuted but case dismissed after she attended parenting classes. After several more incidents and family court appearances there was an order made of no corporal punishment. The commissioner we were dealing with left and new commissioner recused himself because he previously was mother’s lawyer (they connected through church). Case moved to judge who was raised by a minister. Mother was using our atheism as a pejorative in court and it seems to have worked. Newest bruises mother claims she has no idea how they got there, child told police mother did it but later in her custody recanted to cps and says he doesn’t remember how he got them. Several police in our small town go to mothers church and the ones that investigated are saying child sounded coached. Everyone (police, judge, cps) is now saying mother (very charismatic and wholesome) doesn’t seem to be someone that would hit her child and that were making it up. This is insane to father and I that our liberal town with less than 50% religious population can have so much religious bias and short term memory.
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@Snowtheist,
Damn, that really sucks to be honest and I imagine it’s hard for the father and you as well. While I could go on and about getting police involved and what not but, that does not seem to be working. The best suggestion I can think of would be to somehow install some sort of cameras in the kid’s room or wherever he says his mom beats him. The kid might be afraid to speak out against his mom and she seems to be denying it but, she can’t deny it if it’s on video.
Good luck
@searchingforthetruth I use to audio record every interaction and one a physical outburst she had towards me at exchange she turned around and claimed it was me being violent and got a temporary restraining order. When I told judge I had recorded incident to prove she was lying he refused to listen to it and threatened me with criminal charges because it’s illegal to record someone without their knowledge.
Is the father allowed to put any kind of surveillance in his son's room? He could justify his actions by citing his son's safety based off past actions and the pictures of the bruises from the child abuse. Maybe if it were limited to the room only it'll be less illegal if you know what I mean.
@searchingforthetruth. Not an option. Neither parent/step-parent is allowed at others house. Since restraining order incident all exchanges are done in police parking lot with no talking allowed. The court is leaning towards the abuse never happened and injuries are from falling. Mother has since recanted her original statements to police (which I think current judge has never read) and her and child claim he has “NEVER” been spanked.
If we report even one more incident we will lose custody.
Sorry, no experience in the matter. But there should be ways of addressing the issue. Look for groups, lawyers, whatever you need, that have gone through similar experiences. You might also want professional help to consult the child through all this ordeal. That shouldn't be a problem.
This forum here probably doesn't host anyone who could actually help you, but there HAS TO be other places where to find advice/help/information... Don't give up, keep fighting for the child! Best of luck!
Your city and the Police are not doing their jobs. Try the county or the state. Everybody has a boss/ Start up the chain of command. Document everything in every possible way you can. You may need to simply hammer them with evidence before anyone will take notice. Just keep collecting it.
There is a National Child abuse hotline https://www.childhelp.org/
Keep reaching out until someone takes you seriously;.
D
My advise in many situations is to get the bureaucracy on your side. How might you do that? Here is a silly example; perhaps a bit too risky but I'll throw it out there as an example of what I mean.
I would have thought that the mother's previous admission that she spanked her child would contradict the testimony of others who say that she does not seem like the sort of person to hit their child?
I'm not convinced it is actually illegal to record someone without their knowledge (perhaps worth looking at).
The legality of recording a phone call without informing the other party depends on the state you live in (some places it is illegal, others it is not). Take for example the state of New York it is legal to record a phone conversation if one of the persons in the call has consented to it being recorded (this person can be yourself). However, in California; all members of the conversation must give consent.
@snow
Have you thought about going to the media? Between the pics you have and the recorded phone as well as other evidence you probably have or can get, it might be worth it. Personally, I think all bets are off when being civil no longer works. Maybe if they got bad press they'll pay more attention to you and the father. If you're worried about any legal trouble, just call it in as a anonymous source
Sometimes Life is Hard.
In a past life, about 20 years ago, I was the program director for a youth (Runaway Shelter). This is a true story. The children, minors, were legally allowed to remain in the shelter for two weeks. At which time, the court would mandate family counseling. (Those are the basics.)
One day this young 16 year old girl comes to us with allegations that she is being beaten at home by her father. The police and child protective services are called and she goes through all the interviews. The parents are contacted and of course the father denies everything. The girls current bruising has yellowed and is vague. She has been living on the street for a month and so there is very little evidence of actual abused. The court orders family counseling and of course the family refuses to participate outside of a token visit by mom.
So two weeks passes. Everyone gets to know the girl. (She is sweet, kind, has a nice personality, really tries to get help for herself in her own counseling sessions, and then comes time to leave.) Two weeks later she is walking out the driveway with her father. "He is going to beat me again!" were the last words she said as she exited the facility.
That night, at about 10PM, a bloody, bruised, beat half to death, 16 year old girl, stumbled up the driveway. Her injuries were so severe that an ambulance had to be called. Her face was not recognizable. She was taken to the hospital and we never saw her again. I have no idea what happened to the father. Sometimes answers are just not available. The girl went to live with a relative someplace and the father had charges leveled against him. I seriously doubt it was anything more than simple assault and battery charges. If they charge him with child endangerment, or abuse, the court will recommend reconciliation. This girl did not need reconciliation. She needed to get out. Anyway, shit happens, and no matter how much we want the world to be fair and for children to be protected, sometimes it is just beyond our abilities.
I’m in CA. All parties must be informed of recording. That’s terrible about that 16 yr old girl. I can’t even imagine how many times it happened in years leading up to that. When my husband married his ex she didn’t go to church. She became born again a few months after, when she got pregnant a few months later they agreed to raise the child non denominational/secular and let child decide. When son was 1 yr old mother left husband because she could not stand to not raise him in the church. Just as upsetting to us is the indoctrination into hate son receives. He constantly tells us/friends we’re going to hell for not praying, not going to church, drinking wine, and even strangers for smoking, men having long hair (I.e. gay), swearing, etc. We brought this up in court and afterwards the judge (I didn’t know was religious yet) dismissed it gave mother weekends and said it’s important for child to attend church on Sunday’s. The physical abuse we thought was provable but I guess nothing trumps religious bonds.
I've told the story before here; I have an atheist friend who joined the Mormon church in his successful attempt to win a custody battle.
The courts should not endorse religion/church! It will be a long time before we see that I'm afraid.
:( if things are that bad even in California, then I despair. Really sorry that the kid has go to through this situation, and seemingly for the indefinite future.
By 'things', do you mean 'spanking'? I've never heard a good word about California law.
@Snowtheist
If you guys have financial resources, hiring an attorney that is good at winning child custody cases is the way to go. The main trick these lawyers have is: having the the case moved to a judge that is more sympathetic to your side of the case. A sad truth but, powerful: Judges rarely are impartial as their office demands.
There are other tricks, a good "bulldog" lawyer that is willing to fight dirty will likely find a way to win you and the father custody.
Like so many things in United States, money wins here 95+% of the time.
Oh, another good resource? Your child's phone/ipad/computer if your child has one, any evidence found there is nearly always admissible in court.
We don’t have much money, we’ve already spent all our savings and sold what we could to pay lawyers (we were ordered to pay here also). She has money (many settlements that doesn’t count as income) so she racks up lawyer fees triple ours. She has brought us into court for every frivolous thing she can think of.
Demonstration of the coincidence of religion and apparent favoritism is only weak evidence for religious bias. There needs to be clear evidence that the older marks were made by the mother; if they were, she's in the wrong--at least in Washington State.
You mean because religious people hardly ever have an agenda, and are never biased in favor of it? I'm dubious.
Anyone who harms a child should hang their heads in shame, whatever the motive. Sadly I am not au fait with Federal or state law, but I sincerely hope the poster in the OP my best wishes in trying to protect their child.
``You mean because religious people hardly ever have an agenda, and are never biased in favor of it? I'm dubious.''
Responded to the proposition, ``demonstration of the coincidence of religion and apparent favoritism is only weak evidence for religious bias.''
Your response was vague. Let me phrase it in a way that is more sincere, straightforward, and relevant: ``demonstration of the coincidence of religion and apparent favoritism is strong evidence for religious bias because [the proportion of judges (being religious or not) who have agendas that make them favor religious defendants is large] (proposition I).''
1. The argument is informally fallacious. It has the form, ``A correlates E, A, and E is likely on account of I, therefore E.'' This amounts to ``E'' as a tautology. The correct conclusion is ``therefore E is at least as likely as it is on account of I alone.''
2. We want evidence for proposition (I).
3. We want a numerical standard for what an acceptably low such proportion would be, formulated sincerely, by account of the efficacy of any current systems meant to prevent judicial bias. If your response was sincere, then the purpose of the conversation is to get to the bottom of the problem and propose a practical solution; this requires a practical goalpost.
4. The evidence for proposition (I) cannot amount to presupposition as it has done here. The strongest evidence would be judges' admission to the fact; weaker evidence must support the proposition that judges would admit to the fact if not for a confounding factor, such as legal trouble.
5. A much better argument would follow through a thorough review of case outcome variation that can be attributed to the religious affiliation and activities of the judge and defendant(s). If you believe that the case would have turned out differently were the religious affiliation and activities of the defendant and judge different, then be forward and put it in a comment.
A sincere effort to protect the child would amount to more than best wishes, to more than the social equivalent of saying that the OP will be in your prayers. At least, it would produce some advice. I doubt your sincerity.
How about swearing on the holy babble? (Yes alternatives are allowed, but heavily frowned upon, any decent lawyer would tell you to just swear like they want you to.)
How about all the religious references in courts? (In god we trust, so help me god, etc) Seen plenty of court houses with major religious emblems in and around the court.
Make your point; state your claim; be forward.
"A sincere effort to protect the child would amount to more than best wishes, to more than the social equivalent of saying that the OP will be in your prayers. At least, it would produce some advice. I doubt your sincerity."
Well you're entitled to an opinion, but since I already stated I have no depth of knowledge of the salient laws in the US as I live in the UK, and you have conveniently ignored this I think you're just taking the opportunity for some petty point scoring. Especially since you simultaneously attacked multiple posts of mine in different threads.
I don't know if the original OP is correct in it's assertion of bias, but there is certainly some circumstantial evidence that taken prima facie implies bias> Though I never claimed it was a compelling argument, merely pointed out the obvious bias in your dismissal, and since a child's welfare was at stake I considered your chippy response was not of primary concern. Hence all I could do was offer my sincere wishes to the person who started the thread that they succeed in protecting their child. Your rather petulant attack on the sincerity of that is pretty pathetic, and speaks for itself.
Again I offer my sincere hopes that the person starting this thread is able to protect their child, as the welfare of any child should be the priority of any decent person. What might motivate anyone to doubt the sincerity of that, let lone post that view on here I shall let others decide.
I'm glad that you made it clear that you don't know whether the OP's bias assertion is correct. Judgment according to the face value of the case is considered intellectually (and, if the word makes you nervous, scientifically) dishonest because it's usually inaccurate and takes no work to make. You did not point out whether you think that my `dismissal' was biased. However, dismissals are biased against the dismissed claim by definition; pointing that out after naming my comment a `dismissal' would add to the proposition only redundant text. If you really think in terms of `scoring points,' then you would not admit that repeating best wishes to the OP is one way that you yourself try to score points unless you thought that you could score more points by making the admission. Either way, it's dishonest discourse. A sincere attempt to help the OP, again, would at least involve giving well thought-out advice: being heartfelt or empathetic is not enough to be sincere; e.g. you could spew all the warmth you want and yet otherwise vote to support laws permitting child abuse. Your hopes cannot be sincere because hopes cannot have the quality of sincerity. Hopes can be heartfelt. Best wishes can be heartfelt. It is how we act beyond our feelings and finer flirtations that determines whether we are sincere.
"you could spew all the warmth you want and yet otherwise vote to support laws permitting child abuse. "
Seriously what on earth are you talking about, that's an asinine accusation.
" A sincere attempt to help the OP, again, would at least involve giving well thought-out advice: "
On a complex legal issue in a foreign country I have admitted I have no salient knowledge of, TWICE? Are you being deliberately obtuse?
Sincere
adjective
free from pretense or deceit; proceeding from genuine feelings.
I offered my sincere wishes for the welfare of their child, because I was minded to do so, as any decent person would be. Your churlish ad hominem is getting more and more bizarre.
"dismissals are biased against the dismissed claim by definition;"
Yes they are, but the motive for the dismissal need not be, I suspect yours was.
"I'm glad that you made it clear that you don't know whether the OP's bias assertion is correct. "
I don't know whether the claims are valid anymore than you *know they are not, but I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the claims made in the OP, or see any ulterior motive for them, so your accusation of bias is pure assumption as it not only doesn't fit the evidence, but you offered naught to support the claim.
"If you really think in terms of `scoring points,' then you would not admit that repeating best wishes to the OP is one way that you yourself try to score points unless you thought that you could score more points by making the admission. "
Fair play that is pure gibberish, but why on earth would I offer insincere wishes of a good outcome to a stranger on the internet for the welfare of their child? My motive is what exactly? I never even commented on the religious aspect of the OP until you dismissed it as biased without offering any evidence for your claim.
``Seriously what on earth are you talking about, that's an asinine accusation.''
That would be asinine were it an accusation. Read. It was an example, preceded by the abbreviation, `e.g.,' for the Latin phrase, `exempli gratia,' meaning `granted example,' and being taken to mean `for the sake of example.'
``Are you being deliberately obtuse?''
It would be as obtuse to assume that the advice must be legal. The obvious choice is emotional support, as advice about how to cope. `Praying for you' and the equivalent empty phrases aren't helpful.
Enough with naming fallacies. It's unproductive, and, it happens, clownish. Fallacy is a property of an argument, not of other kinds of prose or speech.
``Yes they are, but the motive for the dismissal need not be, I suspect yours was.''
Then say that. Write it out. If you mean to accuse me of being ill motivated, then do it!
``I don't know whether the claims are valid . . . .''
Claims do not have validity. Claims have soundness, arguments have validity. Basic stuff.
I did not accuse the OP of bias. Read. I wrote, ``I'm glad that you made it clear that you don't know whether the OP's bias assertion is correct.'' You even quoted it. The phrase `bias assertion' is not a typo for `biased assertion.' It is a common shorthand form for a case of noun in English, and reads as `assertion of bias.' The whole sentence can be read, ``I'm glad that you made it clear that you don't know whether the OP's assertion of bias [the assertion that the judge made a biased ruling] is correct.''
(On your last paragraph)
Again, I didn't accuse anyone of bias.
The first report is the bottom right photo. Mother told police 2 yr old refused to let her put his pants on him. She said she calmly and with love spanked him for no more than 30 seconds. After he was done crying she hugged him and said she loved him and then he put his pants on. We also have photos of bruises on his left arm in the pattern of fingers, that go with that incident. After police told her it was still illegal she said that she had never spanked him and he fell. Police told her she can’t recant previous statement but apparently they can forget about them.
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