Hello. One of greaterst miracles of ortodox curch is Theophany holy water miracle.It occurs evry year.Almost all ortodox cristians claim that it is uncoruptable: http://orthochristian.com/44164.html
Only logical explanation is either God or something was added in water?Maybie salt.This theory is unlikly,beacuse this was done infront of eyes of millions of belivers,and some priest,if adding salt,woud have spoken out about it,atleast one!Here is video of water bieng blessed:
What are your thoughts?
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ahahahahaha
why would I even think about this nonsense? http://stgeorgeparish.org.au/information/1029/1092/
LOL...water crystals hehehehehehehehheeh! love it...you gullible fucker I have a nice opera house going cheap...interested?
"I have a nice opera house going cheap...interested?"
Don't do it Coda. I swear I'm still waiting on that so called "Brooklyn Bridge" Old Man sold me several months back. Don't trust him, just walk away.
I never trusted him,but what are your thoughts on this.I am intrested in how is it possible to somhow add salt(or any other matter) to water without bieng noticed or telling somebody.This will be big conspiracy.And what about crystals?
Hello.This isn't nonsense.This is serious argument.You cant just dismiss things that you dont agree on.Fact is that holy water is diffirent form other waters
@ Code-Beta1234
"Fact is that holy water is diffirent form other waters"
Please off proof that this water is unique, notwithstanding it had some old fart waving his arms over it.
Because so far all I have seen is claims, claims, claims with absolutely zero proof to back it up.
Here.It doesn't spoil same way normal water does.This article shows normal and holy water crystals : http://stgeorgeparish.org.au/information/1029/1092/
And does it spoil?If not,why?
Only possible explenation is that something is added on.If so,why it wasn't noticed or why it wasn't reported by priests?It is forbiden to lie in bible?And if this isn't miracle,than they lied,opposing bible which they srtongly belive in!
Code-beta, personally, I don’t know why this phenomenon appears to happen. I haven’t studied it nor have I read any studies of it done by reputable scientists. However, your lack of understanding and then making the leap to “gawd did it” is pretty silly imo.
@ Code-Beta1234
"Here.It doesn't spoil same way normal water does.This article shows normal and holy water crystals : http://stgeorgeparish.org.au/information/1029/1092/"
I requested proof, all you have provided is just a description on what this water is supposed to do.
What I am looking for is such things as composition of all trace minerals, alkaline salts, PH balance, salinity, ionization, the kind of data a reputable lab is very capable of performing and delivering.
Was this water examined before the spell waving ceremony?
And ... is there any trace of skepticism in you, or are you 100% gullible? Pictures of water structure? Water crystals? Why aren't your alarm bells ringing loud? FYI I am Canadian and to make a quality curling or hockey rink, that water's composition is altered quite profoundly. So pictures like those displayed do not impress me.
Hint: it is too easy to spike that water. Especially if you are wearing huge flowing robes. If I was to perform this con job, I would just run the water through an ultraviolet filter before the marks, oops, the assembly showed up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjC4ClxeVcM
OK, this'll be fun...
All the "after blessed" images are ice crystals. If that's what the water in that basin looks like after he blessed it, then you'd have a solid chunk of ice.
All the "before blessed" images are from a Japanese woo pusher, who believes human consciousness itself, not a divine being, alters water molecule structure. All of which has already been disproved.
Does it spoil? No. Because water itself doesn't spoil to begin with, nothing magical or divine about that.
If you want to try something, take some normal water and some blessed water, pour some sugar in each, then let then sit in a warm, moist environment. I bet both of them will grow mold equally.
Water that does not spoil eh?
Water can spoil?? How does water spoil? News to me.
Tell you what: I will be happy to go test this supposed "unspoilable holy water" best way I know how:
I will not bathe for 2 weeks, then I will wash my balls and taint area with this water.
If all the high priest and top authorities of whatever church are still willing to drink this same water after I cleaned myself with this supposedly "unspoilable" water, I will stand at the corner of whatever street that the church is on with a giant sign saying: "I was wrong and I repent" for 40 hours spread out over 2 weeks. Hell (pun intended), I will do it naked if I only have to do it for 20 hours and it's not too cold out.
I mean this church would just love to prove us heathen atheist wrong right? And they so believe this water is magical and is unspoilable this should be a no brainer awesome deal for them right?
Let me know! I will contact the church etc and set it all up. I am real curious to see if they would actually drink it, I am very confident the priest, whatever.. will refuse, but they are more then welcome to prove me wrong on that.
Spoiling water huh? LOL.
The Opera House is in the centre of Sydney, beautiful to look at, I can get you planning and rezoning permission if you want to demolish it...and today I can let you have a discount....
Don't listen to that Nyar, he knew he had to collect that bridge in NY city...
@LogicFTW
"Water can spoil?? How does water spoil? News to me."
Spoil as in become nasty and unpleasant. Yes and no. Water with any kind of movement; springs, creeks, rivers etc never goes off. as far as I know, without added contaminants .
From experience, still water left uncovered can become a bit' stale tasting', or grow algae . I suspect that is due to contaminants in the air.
Interestingly, the notion of 'holy', blessed or sacred water is millennia old. Springs, ponds and lakes especially were often considered sacred , often with a deity or spirit attached. Even the seas and ocean had a deity in charge. People have been making sacrifices to water since prehistory.
Traditionally , and in latter days' wicca ,holy water can be made by anyone by simply adding salt.
.Can't really understand why topic is under serious discussion, except perhaps to humour the OP.
Reasoning needs to be deductive, with proof based on scientific method, imo.
There doesn't seem to be any of that so far.
@Cranky47
Hah yeah.
I am not sure I ever heard in all my time chatting here and other places, a "reasonable" argument about anything god related. I actually spent a moment trying to think of one and came up empty.
...Okay after a bit of thought, the most reasonable argument I ever heard from a theist: my dad, answering my when I was a kid.
Me: Are all the parts of the bible 100% true and to be taken literally? Like Noah's ark?
MY dad:
I talked to a priest once with the same question. The priest said (paraphrasing hard here) "not every part of the bible is meant to be taken literally, they are parts that are story, more meant to teach and draw inspiration on, then to be taken literal."
.
I of course, I did not buy it. But at the time I was too young to understand why I did not like the answer.
But, it was reasonable, basically by admitting that at least part of the bible is fiction in the parts that make no reasonable/logical sense.
My adult mind now, understands it was just an attempt of distraction, a slight concession of a convenient answer, to hide the far greater secret, that all the important parts are complete works of fiction.
I just want to know who 'ortodox curch' is....
Sounds like Benedict Cumberbatch's first attempt at a stage name.
If its simply a matter of "the Holy Spirit, coming down upon the water", and changing "its natural properties", what is the need for the priests to say prayers over it and to dunk a crucifix three times in that theatrical performance? Don't they trust the Holy Spirit will turn up and do it invisibly?
I'd need as much faith in buying a public monument from Old Man as I would to accept the claims of the Theophany ritual
and to accept the 'natural properties of the water' had somehow been changed. Its another miracle claim that can't be substantiated.
There is nothing I know of that could be added to water to refresh it other than something like alum, which can be used to separate impurities that sink, but remain visible.
What seems more rational is to ask how often the water is flushed and replaced during the course of the year to avoid stagnation and the fate of unserviced swimming pools, when the church is closed to public access.
If the water is so God-blessed Holy, here's an idea to test it....
Take one of the priests and have him submerge his entire head under the water without any type of breathing apparatus for... oooooh... say about fifteen or twenty minutes. The way I see it, if the water is truly blessed by their god and if the priest has true absolute faith that his god will protect him, then the priest should be perfectly fine. Matter of fact, the priest should actually be able to stay submerged indefinitely without ill effect. After all, how many days exactly did Jonah survive in the belly of a whale? And I somehow doubt THAT water ever got blessed by a priest.... *rolling eyes*...
Anyway, seems like a fair test to me.... *shrugging shoulders*... And if the priest fails, then he obviously didn't have enough faith and/or the water is just ordinary water. Hmmmm... Thinking about it, that rather causes a problem, doesn't it? If the priest drowns, how do we determine if it was the water or the priest's lack of faith? Dang-it... *strumming fingers on table*... This religion stuff is complicated....
Oh, and before anybody goes getting their panties in a wad, they are allowed to have medics on scene during testing. Personally, though, I think that would only serve to make their faith questionable. Just an opinion, though.
(Edited to add "have him" before "submerge" so as to avoid any misunderstandings should the testing go awry. Thanks, Grin... *wink*...)
@ Tin (unsolicited free legal advice)
"...seems like a fair test to me,,,"
A jury in a court of law might not see it that way.
One drowned cleric. Several medic witnesses, 'yeah he held the priest's head submerged saying "yep, 20 minutes ought to do it" and a 'heartless' metal man banging about how hard it is to devise a 'fair test with holy water' and blaming the deceased's 'lack of faith'.
I'd suggest getting Cog to represent you. At the very least, when he hits his poo flinging summation you might get a chance to make a break for it in the confusion, and head for the nearest border of a country without an extradition agreement....
But you already know. Its. Just. Bloody. Water.
@Grin Re: "...yeah he held the priest's head submerged saying "yep, 20 minutes ought to do it..."
Whoa-whoa-whoa! Put on the brakes a bit, bird brain. While I most certainly appreciate you concern and your supremely wise advice, at no time did I suggest I, or anybody else, should forcibly hold the priest's head under the water. Obviously, that could potentially skew the results, especially if the person holding the priest submerged is a former choir boy in the priest's church. Therefore, it is entirely up to the priest to keep himself submerged. Certainly wouldn't want to give people any reason to criticize the test results. However, still trying to figure out a method to determine the difference between the effects of the water versus the effects of the faith. Hey! Anybody know if there are any Faith Meters available on Ebay or Amazon?
Edit to add: Oh... After reading back over my post, I see what you mean. I should re-word that. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Sorry about the confusion... *thumbs up*...
All available production of "faith meters" has been instead going to irony meters.
If someone could invent irony meters that could withstand any amount of irony no matter how great, then maybe some production could then switch to faith meters.
Unfortunately I do not think such an unbreakable irony meter is even remotely possible.
@Logic Re: "Unfortunately I do not think such an unbreakable irony meter is even remotely possible."
ESPECIALLY not with the theists we usually get on THIS site.
"Unfortunately I do not think such an unbreakable irony meter is even remotely possible."
It is like expecting popcorn to survive being one meter away from a nuclear bomb detonation. They just can't make it handle the shock.
Don't apologise. Cockatoos have a tendency for drama.
Testing the holy water while possibly drowning its adherents, I admit, sounds like fun. But there is an easier way.
We have a hot tub at home and have to buy chemicals and testing strips. The strips test for chlorine levels, PH levels, etc, but there is, I've noticed, also a strip to detect for holy water. You can buy the strips at any pool supply store or at your local Walmart.
The link simply makes a claim for miracle, as do you, can you demonstrate any objective evidence to support this claim beyond making more bare claims about what happens?
This is an argumentum ad ignorantiam fallacy, it's a known fallacy in informal logic, and by definition anything using a known logical fallacy cannot be asserted as rational, so the irony of you using it in the same sentence you claim to be drawing the only rational conclusion is fairly ironic. You have no idea what other explanations there might be, and you haven't offered any objective explanations or evidence that the claims being made are true, let alone that they require a supernatural cause. People made claims this about lightning and tsunamis and earthquakes before science evidenced they were natural phenomena. What's more we know natural phenomena exist as an objective fact, we have no objective evidence for the existence of any supernatural cause.
I also have no idea what you mean by spoiling water? It sounds suitably vague and unscientific for you me to suspect it is woo woo.
I don't believe in miracle, and unless you can cite some objective evidence for the claim I shall continue to disbelieve them. These kind of claims also abound on here, I have read many theists and religious apologists make them, and they have never been able to demonstrate a shred of objective evidence when asked for it.
Oh look. Someone slept through their basic chemistry classes.
"Spoiling" in the context of food and drink, is a chemical process, involving the breakdown of complex organic molecules into simpler molecules, usually by the action of bacteria and their enzymes. Water does not "spoil", because, wait for it, it doesn't undergo chemical decomposition. Indeed, if you want to break the chemical bonds in water molecules, you have to subject them to a large energy input. Such as, say, passing a 200 ampere electric current through the water sample in question.
Furthermore, when water molecules are decomposed by such a large energy input, the result is the formation of hydrogen and oxygen gases at the relevant electrodes. Indeed, those of us who paid attention in class, learned some time ago that such a process was harnessed by various advanced navies, when nuclear submarines were constructed. Those submarines contain a piece of apparatus known as an electrolytic gill, whose job is to split water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen, so that the oxygen can be extracted to provide breathable air for the crew. The reason electrolytic gills only appear on nuclear submarines, is because they are energy expensive, but of course, nuclear submarines can supply the energy required (and a LOT more besides) from their nuclear reactors. The nuclear reactor that powers a modern nuclear submarine, can provide enough energy to keep that submarine operational for 25 years without refuelling, and can provide the energy to drive massive steam turbines for both propulsion (in some cases at 40 knots underwater) and electricity generation. When you have a 5 megawatt electrical generator running constantly inside your submarine, you can operate a LOT of energy expensive devices.
For that matter, we've worked out how to stop foodstuffs from spoiling some time ago, courtesy of the simple expedient of sealing them in cans, heating the cans to around 130°C in a large pressure cooker, and killing off any bacteria that might rot those foodstuffs via such heating, which also denatures their digestive enzymes and renders said enzymes harmless. Canned foods prepared in such a manner can, if stored properly, last for decades.
Once again, no fucking magic needed for any of this, and no magic man in the sky.
@ Code-Beta1234
I'm betting something is in the water. I look at the assholes performing the ceremony and all I see are assholes out to con people. The whole fucking thing makes as much sense as this... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM9Bynjh2Lk