Why do theists believe in any god?
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34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn“‘a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.
37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
40 “Anyone who welcomes you welcomes me, and anyone who welcomes me welcomes the one who sent me.
That seems pretty much in plain language....especially when read with Micah 7:6
For son dishonors father,
Daughter rises against her mother,
Daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law;
A man’s enemies are the men of his own household.
Which repeats the message.
I fail to see a metaphor or allegory in either of these, and taken together the meaning is reinforced.
You Have a history of taking quotes out of context and misinterpreting verses to satisfy your beliefs (sorry I mean non beliefs). But just know you don’t understand the quote you just used. Would do you some good to understand it before posting.
-from a friend.
Awww bubsy did your ickle feelings get hurt?
I understand the quote and the context and do not have to perform mental gymnastics in a vain effort to convince people that the written text does not mean exactly what it says.
And I would love to have you give me a set of examples where " I have taken quotes out of context and misinterpreting verses to satisfy my beliefs (sorry I mean non beliefs)"
Otherwise it is good manners to withdraw such a comment.
@ Old Fart Shouts too loud
"Awww bubsy did your ickle feelings get hurt?"
LoL. Did it sound like my feelings were hurt there, or did you just misunderstand my comment like you do the bible?
Yes it did. And when you copied and pasted a comment originally and erroneously directed at someone else it shows you were a tad miffed.
Secondly I understand the various bibles and their intent very well thank you. Probably, as I don't wear Jesus glasses and steer clear of apologetics, a whole lot better than the theists than come on these boards.
I also don't suffer from "corkscrew" syndrome. You know that tortuous cognitive dissonance when trying to pass off perfectly clear, yet disgusting, passages in the bible as evidence of gods love or Jesus's divine origin...that does make me laugh.
DAEMS: "A book claiming to be divinely inspired has been passed down through many generations, essentially a map to eternal salvation and wondrous things."
Since the Epic of Gilgamesh (≅1150 years older than the Bible) and Epic of Atra-Hasis (≅1250 years older than the Bible) and Epic of Ziusudra (1450 years older than the Bible) and the Genesis of Eridu (≅1550 years older than the Bible), and have survived for longer amount of time than the Bible, proves the Bible is nothing more than a collection of plagiarized and re-written myths and legends.
Just because the Bible survived to modern times proves nothing. There are Far, FAR! older myths and legends that have survived to modern times. Since they are older, that means they are truer than your religious book.
No it doesn't. Those older texts mean next to nothing, except maybe that the events in them, being so widespread, have some similar origin. Moses didn't start writing the Bible during the flood, he didn't start writing it until much later. After the separation at the tower of Babel when everyone spread out, with the origins of the flood story.
You write as if the existence of 'Moses' is a given fact.....how so?
What are your sources?
@Old man shouts ...
Why would you have to ask what my source is? It's the Bible, of course. It's a collection of books over a long period of time where various authors confirmed Moses existed. Then there's 2000 years of history where no one challenged Moses' existence. Now, what are your sources that Moses didn't exist? That some crackpot in the 19th century named Julius Wellhausen dreamed up some explanation that P & J wrote that which had been attributed to Moses for thousands of years? Which there is absolutely no evidence of at all. Just some speculation based on alleged variations in the style of writing - like one Used the term Elohim (God) and another used the term Jehovah, as I've done myself here many times. Or a fictional Priestly Class. Nonsense.
Okay, settle gretel, didn't mean to ruffle your petticoats.....so, the bible says it, you believe it and with no archeological or 3rd party confirmation you accept the existence of this 'magic' man?
So there is only speculation for his non existence, but your book, with no corroborating evidence is perfect evidence? Enough for you to make a bit of a hero in Moses?
I must admit, I am not convinced by the Argumentum ad Populum. Plus for a long time if anyone questioned anything in the bible they were burned, hacked, garrotted, separated limb from limb, at least exiled which I should imagine would be a bit of a disincentive to say "Hey, are your SURE Moses did all that stuff? Was he even a Hebrew?"
Again I would direct you to the modern studies in various Universities, there are several interesting monographs.
I am not really into the Pentateuch, I find Early Christian history much more fascinating.
I just wanted to know how you based your certitude that Moses was as described in your bible. I now find it is faith. No real substance. That's fine, I know where you are coming from now.
Lmao the bible isn't non-fiction. It claims all and proves nothing. Plus it had to be translated over and over and over again in order to be understood in modern times. Talk about a game of Telephone.
Yep, and Moses (who never existed) plagiarized those biblical stories from the Far, FAR! older myths and legends that had a few thousands of years to spread around by travelers through word-of-mouth. You do realize that Moses is an imagiment of fignation. As is Abram, Sarah, Adam, Eve, Noah, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.…
The flood story is a completely over exaggerated myth of the real flood event in the floodplain of the Tigris and Euphrates circa 2900 to 3000 BCE. Why do you think the flood myths in that area originated at the floodplain of the Tigris and Euphrates, thousands of years before the Hebrews were ever heard of?
Most atheists I have ever know have prided themselves on being Free and Rational Thinkers. You however, seem to be an atheist who has fallen for the brainwashing of the lies of religion. I posted this elsewhere, but I am going to put it here also.
Do you honestly expect me to believe a book of lies and plagiarized myths and legends that has been re-written and re-translated and re-written and re-translated and re-written and re-translated so many times that there is no TRUTH left in it? Do you honestly think I am that gullible and susceptible and irrational and unwise and insane?
DAEMS: "So i'd say, as far as I'm concerned, I have PLENTY of proof that it is real."
Not even close. All you have are a huge pile of baseless and unsubstantiated and inane and asinine assertions with ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE.
DoesAtheismEven...The first half of the book, written thousands of years prior to this man's birth, predicts everything with accuracy.
The Old Testament was written hundreds, not thousands of years before the supposed birth of Jesus.
Those writings were available to the unknown authors of the New Testament Gospels, who could have altered and embellished their stories to match the so-called prophecies.
Thank I missed that part. You correct. the oldest Hebrew copy of the OT only dates back to ≅450 BCE. Some Greek copies, mainly the Septuagint, date back to ≅650 BCE. Then there are older copies of the Pentateuch in other languages dating even older. Then there is the Talmud which I do not know what it dates back to. But there have been none found older than circa 1000 BCE. This is the reason why I say the Bible has been re-written, re-translated, and plagiarized so many times there is no longer any truth left in it.
"So i'd say, as far as I'm concerned, I have PLENTY of proof that it is real."
I reject your claim, Hitchens's razor applied.
Wish you a speedy recovery.
@ Empedocles (and everyone else)
As for the heart surgery, hope everything goes well. I have had quite a few surgeries here lately myself.
Glad you did not say anything earlier, else I might have pulled my punches, thus would have been dishonest in my replies.
I just recently had a full cardio-thingy. I had a gall bladder attack and thought it was a massive heart attack. After that cardio-thingy, they said my heart was as healthy as someone in their mid-30s. I even had a very mild heart attack when I was only 35 years old. But that was because my cholesterol was 389 when the maximum was 180. Back then, they only went by that one number. The "cholesterol numberS" of today did not come about, as far as I am concerned until around 2010. Of course, that heart attack MADE me drastically change my diet away from literally nothing more than meat, fat, and cholesterol. Even today, like other family members on my mom's side, I having a problem with triglycerides. However, one thing that is most upsetting to me is why all of these health problems have hit so suddenly in just the last 2 or 3 years. I mean damn! I was healthy. I was still enjoying life. Now I am suffering from exceptionally severe nerve and joint pain (I am on very high doses of gabapentin and naprosene), triglyceride problems so high they cannot even get an LDL reading, prostate problems (not cancer), migraines that have returned after some 20+ years. I mean DAMN! WTFGDH!
Sorry. I just do not understand how these problems went from non-existant to very severe problem in just 2 to 3 years. Granted, I can be considered old, but to my dead grandma, I'd still be considered young (she died when she was 98 in 2003). Wel, fuck me, that is enough about me.
SSoaB: "I don't think the OP is calling you out specifically."
True. Actually, I was asking all theists, current and past. David Killens has it correct in assuming I did not specifically mean just current ones. Should have better clarified. Reason being is that I have NEVER been a believer. I just could not understand how anyone could believe any religion, and I have studied many. For decades. None ever computed.
Thus, in a way, I was wanting to know as the question posed: "Why do theists believe in any god?"
Even I grew up in a half Christian home. Me mom was a devout, hard-core Religious Absolutist. Me dad was an indifferent atheist. Which is how I would be if the Religious Absolutist did not bother me so damn much. Me dad did not give a damn as long as you left him alone. Of course, back when I was a child, you NEVER had the door-to-door religious salespersons. At least I never knew of any, excepting the Mormons, until the mid-90s or so. And I now why. Churches are losing their paritioners in record numbers in the last 20 to 25 years. Thus, it is kind like the churches last dying gasp in an attempt to increase their numbers. However, no religion ever computed. My brain and mind are exactly as me dad said when I was much younger and asked him why I could not believe in the Bible or Christianity: “Your brain and mind are like a computer. If it is not logical or rational, it does not computer.” Thus, my mind literally follows the GIGO principle. Garbage in does equal garbage out.
And in all honesty, although I may seem hateful, spiteful, vicious, and venomous towards any religion, I truly do not care what you want to believe. However, I shall always be hateful, spiteful, vicious, and venomous towards any religion simply because I see religion as a means of enslaving “minds”, sometimes brilliant ones, into a way of thinking that actually ends up destroying that brilliant mind. I much prefer seeing everyone's mind being free from the shackles of religion, to be capable of thinking for themselves and to research whatsoever knowledge tickles their fancy. It is not the person, or their mind, that I attack. It is evil that religion has done.
Empedocles: "I've learned to not take anything personally on forum posting, even when it seems personal it is really about something else, usually about the message rather than the messenger."
Hot damn! Finally! A person who sees the responses are directed at the correct thing. Kewl.
Empedocles: "I don't think I'm doing any of that (reference forum guidelines), at least not any more than the atheists are doing to AJ777 or have done to me."
I hope I ain't done that to you. If I have, sorry. My bad. Give me a DiNozzo Smack. I sometimes do such things when I am in a good mood and just want to "fart around."
As for AJ777, well, that guy is a Troll. He came here and threw his preposterous claims in our faces, we answered him, and he has been twisting and pussy-footing around our questions like John Breezy. In fact, I am wondering if John Breezy has come back through a sock puppet. And I know you have seen that partial list of all the questions he refuses to answer. Of course, he under no obligation to answer any of them, but he has purposefully made it his principle objective to be nothing more than an obnoxious Troll.
Empedocles: "What you've read, at first, was conversations that I have had with people that treat me and my beliefs with respect. Then you read some posts where I was having conversations with people who disrespect me and my beliefs. That's the way I roll."
Here is how I roll. My Fourth Commandment of Humanity:
However, notice this commandment says NOTHING about respecting the beliefs themselves. I respect the person. I respect their right to believe whatsoever they wish to believe. However, I shall never respect any religion or its beliefs.
Here is a section of my "The Exodus That Went Nowhere" thesis.
Some Additional Interesting Information
Author’s Note: (On Atheist Republic Forums) I neglected to mention in the previous posting of this data, but it was hashed together from the Great Wiki and other sources, and summarized by me as below. I completely apologize for this error and am completely ashamed I made no attempt at such correction until now. I know. “Time Out” for one day in the Christian Hell... ***tree slumps upper boughs as slumps off to punishment and hoping can survive***
BTW: The first artifact listed below (Merneptah Stele) I have seen in person. Further, all the below artifacts had a date range. I chose the date that makes the artifact oldest within those date ranges. Thus, making anything Hebrew/Israel as old as possible. Just so you Christians would not cry foul, I actually ceded in favor for your cause. Honestly, and this is a Ripley’s Believe It or Not, and I could care less which you do, I honestly spent 30 years researching (during vacations) trying to prove the Bible historically correct. Reason: I wanted to know from a scientific point of view why someone would put so much faith into something that has never been proven correct and cannot be proven to be true.
Merneptah Stele; Location: Cairo Museum; Found: 1896, Thebes; Date: circa 1200 BCE; Writing: Egyptian hieroglyphs. Biblical archaeologists translate the set of hieroglyphs on Line 27 as “Israel.” However, true Ancient Egyptian archaeologists differ saying the hieroglyphs actually translate as “Jezreel,” a city and valley in the Land of Canaan. This also constitutes the only record in Ancient Egyptian that mentions Jezreel/Israel.
I have to admit that I got the dates reversed in my The Exodus That Went Nowhere essay (have since been corrected). I am certain I flipped them between this artifact and when the Hebrew people actually came into being and the first mention of them in Egypt. The above artifact does not mention “Hebrew” or “Israel.” It actually only mentions “jezreel people,” not “Israel nation” as the biblical persons would have one believe. However, ALL archaeological evidence proves “Hebrew” or “Israel” was NEVER in the empire proper of Egypt (near the Nile). They may have been within Egypt’s Sphere of Influence in the Levant, but the Hebrews/Israel did come into existence until around 850 to 800 BCE. Six hundred, SIX! hundred years after the dates given by biblical scholars for the Exodus (circa 1440 BCE).
Additionally, if I remember my biblical history correctly, was not Israel (Jacob) before the Exodus? And the Exodus was supposed to have begun in circa 1440 BCE? And this record is over 200 years younger? Moses supposedly died in 1400 BCE (just before the Hebrew Invasion), and later that same year Joshua began his campaign to rape the Land of Canaan? All of this going by what biblical scholars preach...
The next oldest Egyptian Artifact even mentioning anything about Israel is the Mesha Stele, (dated circa 850 BCE), written by the Moabites with reference to “house of David” (which still does NOT truly mean “Israel”) constituting the earliest mention of a “David.” This does not prove Israel was a nation, just there was a house/family with the name of “David” near the Moabites. Also see next two entries.
Saba’s Stele (dated circa 800 BCE) details the accounts of an Assyrian army’s campaign (see below) in Philistia circa 800 BCE, yet has no mention of any “Hebrew/Israel” nation/people in the Land of Canaan through which they would have had to march to get to Philistia. Strange.
Then there is the Nimrud Slab (dated circa 800 BCE) which details Adad-nirari III’s Assyrian conquests of Palastu (Philistia), Tyre, Sidon, Edom, and Humri. Humri is the Akkadian translation for Hebrew (Israel). The earliest mentioning of Hebrew. I got that date wrong from another document since it stated the word Hebrew did not appear in the Assyrian (Akkadian) language until circa 1000 to 800 BCE. It was kind of right, just gave a broader date range.
Gezer Calendar dated circa 950 BCE is the earliest appearance of Paleo-Aramaic (later Hebrew) written language.
The walls of the tombs of Ahmose (dated circa 1500 BCE), son of Ebana, sometimes said to be the basis of the Moses myth, and Ahmose Pen Nekhbet (dated circa 1450 BCE) detail the earliest records of Egyptian control of the Land of Canaan. The Bible’s depiction of Israel does not allow for Egyptian control over the Land of Canaan.
The Great Hymn to the Aten (dated circa 1400 BCE) is seen to possess strong similarities to Psalm 104 (circa 1440 to 585 BCE (Why such a huge range?)), which may be based on it. Of course, biblical archaeologists and biblical scholars refute this. I could care less. I thought it was interesting.
Ipuwer Papyrus (dated 1850 BCE (400 years before the supposed Exodus)) contains a poem that describes Egypt as afflicted by social anarchy and in a state of chaos. This archaeological evidence does not support the story of the Exodus, and most histories of ancient Israel no longer consider it relevant to the story of Israel’s emergence. Nevertheless, the Ipuwer Papyrus is often put forward in popular literature as confirmation of the Biblical account, most notably because of its statement that “the river is blood” which naturally occurs anyway due to iron rich sediments during the disastrous floods of the Nile. Additionally, it states that the social disruption may have actually been caused by the “arrival of Asiatic servants.” Asiatic meaning Oriental? China? Wow.
Khirbet Qeiyafa shrines (oldest dated to circa 860 BCE) are cultic constructs many see as evidence of a “cult in Judah of David” and with features (triglyphs and recessed doors) which may resemble features in descriptions of the Temple of Solomon.
Ophel Inscription (dated circa 1100 BCE (300 years after the supposed Hebrew invasion circa 1400 BCE)) is an inscribed fragment of a ceramic jar found near Jerusalem’s Temple Mount by archaeologist Eilat Mazar. It is the earliest alphabetical inscription found in Jerusalem written in Proto-Canaanite script. Some scholars believe it to be an inscription of the type of wine that was held in a jar.
Kuntillet Ajrud Inscriptions (dated circa 850 BCE) are inscriptions in Phoenician script including references to Yahweh. The earliest record of the mention of “yahweh.” Still is 550 years after the supposed Hebrew Invasion circa 1400 BCE detailed in the book of Joshua.
Khirbet Beit Lei (dated circa 700 BCE) contains oldest known Hebrew writing of the word “Jerusalem.” “I am YHWH thy Lord. I will accept the cities of Judah and I will redeem Jerusalem.” And later, “Absolve us oh merciful God. Absolve us oh YHWH.”
After this, artifacts just get younger. I chose the oldest ones found to date. Showing that the Hebrew/Israel nation did come into existence until many centuries after the dates put forth by biblical archaeologists and biblical scholars.
If biblical archaeologists and biblical scholars got all their dates wrong, then I am damned certain ALL Religious Absolutist scholars got all their dates wrong as well.
And the word "Hebrew" is actually of Assyrian origins. There is acutally more evidence that shows the Hebrews came from Assyria to the Land of Canaan. Probably due to a religious schism.
From previous posts…
Arakish (me) Sun, 08/04/2018 – 08:41 (excerpt only)
“History is always written by the victors.” I forget who said that, but I have remembered it since high school (40+ years ago). OK. Just looked it up. Misattributed to Winston Churchill and its origin is actually unknown. It might be inspired by Hermann Göring’s quote: “We will go down in history either as the world’s greatest statesmen or its worst villains.”
The post above later developed into the post/statement below.
Arakish (me) Sun, 08/05/2018 – 12:41 (excerpt only)
“History is always written by those who win the war. When two peoples rise into conflict, sometimes the loser is annihilated. Or, at least, decimated and demolished. The victors shall always write and rewrite the history of the conflict to glorify and deify their own cause, while they also criticize, belittle, ridicule, disparage, marginalize, vilify, and villainize the foe upon which the victors have committed repugnant ethnic genocidal cleansing. In other words, the victors basically engage in postwar propaganda to make their archenemies seem cruel and less civilized. Thus, making their cause more just. What is written, yet unverifiable, history than an agreed upon myth, legend, fable?”
And another user later posted/stated almost the same exact…
Greensnake Sun, 08/05/2018 – 23:08 (excerpt only)
“Don’t you realize that all you know about these wars is from the biased pen of the authors? Once we make a reasonable correction for that bias, we are left with little viscous Bronze Age wars that would properly be condemned as genocidal today. That’s like justifying the wars against the Native Americans because a book written by their conquerors portrays it as part of the glorious, God-given destiny of the United States.”
Simply stated and reiterated, the Bible has been written and rewritten and rewritten so many times that there is no truth left in it. Watch Aron Ra’s series: Refuting the Irrefutable Proof of God and Foundational Falsehood of Creationism. The Bible, if you do some actual research, is nothing more than a collection of plagiarized, and rewritten, myths, legends, faerie tales, and fables, far, FAR! older than the Bible. Some thousands of years older.
An additional thought by Arakish (me): “And here is something else to think about. How easy do you think it would be to completely rewrite history, when you have utterly destroyed all cities, killed all people, and destroyed all literature in that region, to suit your justification for having annihilated, or at least decimated and subjugated, a peoples during the time of the Hebrew invasion of the Land of Canaan? Especially, when the fastest form of communication across distances is by horse? Maybe a ship? And here is another question: How do you know this god gave the land to the Hebrews? Do not use the Bible or any other religious material to answer this question.”
Ultimately, the only answer you can give to the above question is that the Hebrews invaded the Land of Canaan, killing everything that stood against them, stealing that land, then writing a collection of plagiarized myths and legends to make it look justified in the name of an imaginative figment.
And since Assyria was right next door to the Babylonian Empire, is it no wonder that the flood myth was plagiarized since it originated in Babylon?
Anyway. I have ranted and been verbose enough.
Why did @ThinkTank and @DAEMS both say this in this thread?
Good catch. Thanks, Sapporo.
I second Cyber's praise....I totally missed that Sapporo. *applauds and buys beer*