I have already told one story about the people in the street begging money from the beggars here in the Philippines. Well, last night at the poker tables, I did it again. I did not bring up the topic of religion but it came up and someone asked me if I was a Christian. "No, I don't believe in any gods." I replied,,,,, and then I saw it coming....... "Why not!"
"Because I have been studying religions as a hobby for the past 25 years. I was a Christian when I was younger and wanted to be a ;priest but I was cured by attending every Church in the small town of Pratt, Kansas.. At 16, I knew the religions in the town didn't have a clue and the membership of the Churches, temples and meeting halls were all a bunch of posers... I moved on to Buddhism. I enjoyed the teachings of the Buddha but through my contact with the writings of J, Krishnamurti, and P, D. Ouspenski, I realized it was a bunch of shit as well, Then I heard a story about a King who had a son, The son was not ready to be King so the king banished him for a year on 4 separate occasions. The son went to the four directions, North, South, East and West. Upon his return each year he would tell his father of the crazy people he met and the powerful wizards that controlled their minds with insane beliefs. Not like the beliefs he and his father held. On the prince's final trip home he looked at his father and said, "You are an Evil Wizard just like all the other evil wizards I have seen. The king smiled at his son and said, "Now you are ready to be a king." Religion and its gods are all man made.
So the guy asks me. "You believe in the Big Bang then? I don't believe in that. I believe a god created the universe." And I respond, "I hate to break the news to you but the "Big Bang" is a scientific fact that is validated through experimentation and observation. If you don't believe in it, it's because you don't understand it."
"Oh, I understand it." he says, "we can debate it sometime."
"Do you know that the big bang is not a theory about the creation of the universe? The theory says nothing at all about where the universe came from. The Big Bang only says that the universe is expanding. And everything we know about the universe supports this idea. "
"Well, we will have to debate it sometime."
"Yes, we can discuss it again sometime," Poker game started..... I doubt the guy got anything at all out of the conversation but there were also 7 other people at the table listening. Perhaps this is all we can do.
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
Maybe you made this guy realise he doesn't know jack shit about the big bang.
And maybe he will he read up on it and discover he really has no idea about it and many other issues he thought he knew.
And maybe this will jump start his personal enlightenment, his path to knowledge and reason.
And maybe while he is distracted by newfound weighty considerations you might find solace from your concern about getting more intolerant by fleecing him over the poker table.
Luck!
Added as an after thought...$20 you never get a debate with him.
@Grinseed: I'm not taking the bet, just so we are clear. I seriously doubt the topic comes up again. As I said, we were at the poker table getting ready to play and there were 7 others at the table. I am, fairly certain, the guy felt just a bit OWNED!
@ Cog
Nah mate, not intolerant. The crazies just seem to be more annoying now....and the ignorant more determined to remain so....my cockatiel makes more sense than half the theists on these forums and a shed load more than the blather the real ones make.
I think more crazies are coming out of the woodwork and being more vocal, especially in the USA with the rise of tRump and far right religious extremism emboldening these people to think they were right all along and they want to tell other people about it.
Also perhaps a scary thought, but when an ideology/religion etc begins its decline from the peak of its power, like a cornered rat, it gets more and more desperate and violent as it nears its end.
Anyone that think religion (especially in western countries) is not in serious decline over the last century or two, is in major denial. Back when religions controlled just about all books, education and communication etc. It was easy for them to control everything and keep people in line. Now when someone can google atheist republic in 2 seconds and be here chating with folks, the church can no longer control the narrative, and its killing them.
Also ominously, more violent and extreme religions like islam are often times filling the vacuum of power left behind, with their more violent and brutal enforced religious ideals keeping people mostly inline even if folks have access to opposing ideas. Even among islam the more succesful religions of late are typically the most violent/extreme versions of islam.
Scary stuff, but we should still see continued decline of religion in most of the west, the youngest generations give me a lot of hope here, taking secular positions in ever increasing greater percentages.
"Also ominously, more violent and extreme religions like islam are often times filling the vacuum of power left behind, with their more violent and brutal enforced religious ideals keeping people mostly inline even if folks have access to opposing ideas'
This is a serious concern. Somewhat parallel to the smallpox/cowpox situation. Weakening of the more moderate religions does NOT mean that reasoned atheism will take over. The radical, destructive ideologies find fertile ground to take root.
Like it or not, there is probably an evolutionary basis for religion (possibly as some sort of a primate social cohesion mechanism--otherwise religion would not be so universal across cultures) and won't go away. The problem is that some forms are much more benign than others. The 'big bang disbeliever' is not the one to worry about.
In the west, the suck up to Islam by virtue signalling Christian leaders (the Pope and C of E archbishop for example) as well as the allegedly secular 'social justice' crowd while prominent Imams spit on Christianity as well as liberal democracy demonstrates how pathetically weak they are becoming culturally.
I feel your pain my friend, this happens to me on the odd occasion and I can sometimes come across as a dick.
This is because in all honesty, I know there is no God. Like there is no Easter bunny, or Santa, or pink glowing unicorns.
But I play the game, I try to use logic, reason and evidence to bat away the piles of shite that get flung my direction.
It tends to be the local JW's, they collar you on the way into shopping centres with their idiotic displays, "was evolution really not given a guiding hand!"
Fuck off!
I have next to zero tolerance for religion but I'm trying to be more accommodating as there is a better chance of getting people to see sense, no matter how slim the chances.
Hey, Cog, I totally understand what you are saying. I am currently dealing with a situation involving a cousin of mine and her teenage child. This is the same mother/child I have mentioned before who lost their husband/father in a horrific manner a little over a year ago. The mother and father being ultra-religious, with the child (thankfully) having no interest in the nonsense. Matter of fact, the child (a sixteen year old female) came out as a lesbian before her father died, and now prefers to identify as a male. Suffice it to say, that went over like a lead balloon with the mother and the father's family.
Just this past weekend the child had to come over and stay a few days with me and my wife, because he and the mother were on the verge of causing physical harm to each other. Plus, the child was seeking legal assistance for emancipation procedures. That involved a few long talks with the child, my speaking with an attorney, and then my going back to my cousin for a long discussion.
What it all boils down to is that my cousin flat-out stated she could not accept her daughter being a lesbian and wanting to identify as a male. Why? Because... 1. It totally goes against everything my cousin was taught in her religious upbringing, and, 2. Because my cousin keeps catching a shit-ton of flak and criticism from the inlaws who continuously tell her she is a horrible mother for allowing her child to behave in such a way.
To put it lightly, shit like that pushes my patience to the limits. Sadly, this will be an on-going ordeal for the next couple of years or so until the child is old enough to leave the house to be on his own. And people have the nerve to say religion is such a wonderful thing... Sheesh!
It's that Christian unconditional love bullshit. We love you unconditionally as long as you do, act, and think exactly the way we want you to. Slip up and we will treat you like the shithead sinner you are. Jesus IS love, after all.
@Cog Re: "We love you unconditionally as long as you do, act, and think exactly the way we want you to."
Oh, in this case it is even better. Here's a warped little twist for you...
During the conversation with my cousin, I was pointing out to her what a good kid she has. (For ease of writing, I'll call the child "Joe".) Intelligent, courteous, respectful, curious to learn, and a good sense of humor. Paraphrased a bit, but here is almost the exact response from my cousin. "I know she is smart and independent. Her father and I always raised her to learn and think for herself and to be her own person. I just don't understand how or why she would decide to be a lesbian and not believe in god."
My response. "So, let me get this straight. You are telling me proudly that you raised Joe to think for himself and be his own person, while at the exact same time punishing/condemning him for doing EXACTLY what he was taught to do. Basically, you just told me Joe is free to think for himself and believe what he wants and be who he wants to be..... JUST AS LONG IT FOLLOWS ALONG WITH HOW YOU AND THE INLAWS BELIEVE."
My cousin just sat there with a stunned look on her face as the contradiction dawned on her.
@ TM
Well done mate. You are a good man. Regards toi Joe, hope he does well at whatever he chooses....oh and "go the Yankees!"
Love it!
Not unconditionally of course. I mean, it could have been better. You could have run it by C. to improve the language before engaging in confrontational utterances. You could have drawn an analogy between a banana and an apple. That's what I would have done. Still..... all in all...... not bad. Even good. Okay, I loved it.... but not in a judgmental or homosexual kind of way.
Nicely done! You expertly revealed to her the hypocrisy of her parenting and the folly of her logic.
When someone asks me what I believe, I ask them instead what they believe about. What I do next is follow Robert Downey Jr.'s quote:
"Listen, smile, agree and then continue doing whatever the fuck you were gonna do."
UNLESS the other person happens to be an atheist or agnostic. If that's the case, I passionately engage in an interesting discussion.
But then, 99% of the times I stick with Carl Sagan's theory:
"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe."
Believe me, it saves a lot of brainfucking and stupidity that you'd otherwise be facing by attempting to justify why someone's religion is false.
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
Not even close to "intolerant". All you were doing was stating facts, and he was the one who asked for reasons why you disbelieve, and that you told him, in a frank but unapologetic manner. It's good to have such conversations and exchanges of ideas, no matter how scary others may find your ideas. And remember: It's possible to respect people and their right to believe what they want to believe without respecting the beliefs themselves.