I used to be that guy always debating, sharing atheist posts on the various social platforms, calling people out, being a firebrand, criticizing Christians all the time, etc. I see now how embarrassing and regrettable it was. I now see the atheist community for what it is: a group of miserable people who wish to protest everything. A Christian cannot so much as say "I'm Christian" publicly without atheists running to the courts to stop them from doing it. I can't believe I was ever on that side honestly. It's embarrassing. The idea of religion being a huge problem is blown grotesquely out of proportion by atheists.
And to be honest. I'm fine with the US being a considered a Christian nation. It is as far as I'm concerned. It was predominantly Christians who made this country what it is. Christianity served heavily as the foundation for many of its values (yes, I'm aware of the Enlightenment and the treaty of Tripoli). Still, it was Christians doing what they believed their faith was telling them that formed the foundation for this country. The first pioneers who made their way to this country did what they believe God was compelling them to do. So Christianity is definitely the predominant religion in this country both in terms of population and heritage. I think it should be given much more respect than it gets these days.
I'm just getting tired of hyper-secularism and hyper-liberalism that seems to coincide with the atheist community. I can't bear to read another Freedom From Religion Foundation post where they're taking another school to court because some teacher had a Bible verse written on her desk or something. I also can't stand this crap about trying to force private businesses to go against their personal morals. It just shows point blank the bitterness and hatred that is in the hearts of many atheists. Why does everything have to be a cause for opposition and protest? Why is everything bigotry and a breach of church-state separation? This is a Christian nation based on Christian heritage and principles, and it always will be, so get over it.
Btw, I'm as atheist as it gets.
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Sea of Madness,
What's the most Christian-like thing this country has ever done since 1776?
Dioterephes: "What's the most Christian-like thing this country has ever done since 1776?"
Hiroshima.
Algebe,
That was definitely First Commandment stuff.
I'd say FDR's "New Deal" legislation was pretty Christian-like, setting the precedent for the modern luxuries and standard of living we enjoy today.
Sea of Madness
It's not all about America and whether or not it's a Christian nation. Religion is causing immense harm and suffering all over the world. People still get murdered for being atheist in many countries. Large religious organizations use their wealth and power to shield child molesters. And we're all at risk of becoming collateral damage in the centuries old war between the Christian West and the Muslim East.
Don't you think the world needs a few non-religious voices to counter the strident propaganda of religious finger-waggers?
Absolutely. I agree with everything there. It's the insipid garden variety atheist community that kills me. Absolutely nothing can reference Jesus in the public sphere. They remind me of hardcore vegans actually.
I suppose some of it is based on the "thin end of the wedge" idea. If you let religion get a foot in the door of schools over some trivial thing, like a Christmas pageant, they'll be emboldened to nibble their way in further and further until you have an army of Ken Hamms teaching creation "science" and "Exodus "history" to the kids.
I see religion as a consenting adults sort of thing.
So let them. Who cares? I mean seriously, who cares if the 10 Commandments are put up in public schools, or if they reintroduce prayer time? It doesn't matter. I say let religion (especially Christianity) be expressed and endorsed in the public schools as it used to be. Let teachers overtly express their Christian faith in class. The best scientists who ever lived grew up under these conditions. It doesn't matter one bit and no one cares but a bunch of uptight atheists.
I know what you mean. It's similar to the feminist extremism that's caused dead white males like Shakespeare and Dickens to disappear from school English curricula. You can't understand our history and heritage without some knowledge of Christianity. But the job of schools is to teach children how to think, not what to think. Religions want to the opposite if they get the chance. That's why I'm cautious about religion in schools.
"The best scientists who ever lived grew up under these conditions."
Yes. I know that Galileo and Newton were Christians. But there were so few scientists when religion dominated. Galileo was imprisoned and Bruno was burned for questioning church orthodoxy on science.
The really great scientific minds can rise above a religious education. But what about ordinary people? How would a course in creationist "science" affect their world view as adults?
Honestly, my lack of concern for humanity and the universe likely plays a huge role in my opinion. I really don't give a shit whether people learn creationism or evolution or whatever. I'm full on George Carlin detached by this point. So I've started detesting people who constantly police culture down to the smallest microagression. I just don't give a shit by this point. Let the Christians run the country I say. Let them have their "Christian nation". I mean that.
In some senses I am similar to you, and other ways the polar opposite, in the ways I am similar to you, its for quite different reasons then you that I arrive to it.
I would be just fine with everyone having their "christian" nation if it did not effect me and the people I care about. Unfortunately it does, in big and awful ways. Christianity is not solely to blame, but it plays an out sized role.
"Honestly, my lack of concern for humanity and the universe likely plays a huge role in my opinion."
Nihilism isn't really a healthy option! I can relate, to your original post, and also to the sentiment in the post I quoted from. I totally understand, how they way people on all the extremer fronts behave can lead to a feeling of general misanthropism - and I think, we mustn't give in to this, out of pure desperation/confusion!
I sound like like a preacher, I know, but then, I relate best to Albert Einstein, who said of himself:
"I am a deeply religious non-believer"
And also, to a sentence I one found in an Agatha Christie novel, I think, to the effect, that "having too much, or too little religion" are both harmful.
I would love to have more debate on how we can reform religion, or even have something like an open church with something like mass for all different religions - icluding a secular service, which could leave the beyond where it is (or rahter isn't), and give talks on psychological findings, etc, instead, to inspire people to deal with Life's troubles.
(I am sure, religion need not be theist, nor dogamtic - but to many of us, a place for meditation, philosophy, silence, and also respectful exchange, debate, celebrating and singing together, can actually be a positive thing. Also, religious organizations DO care for people, who are somewhat adrift - and if we don't want fundamentalists to grab these, we should ourselves have communities, that truly befriend struggling youths, care for lonely old people, alcoholics, etc.)
Okay - what am I doing here? Sea of Madness, why not start a more open discourse, then? Opening secularist ideas for a feasible middle ground? Discuss Religion in itself, what it is, what it can do, where it goes wrong,
Religion taken too far always sucks - be it Islam, Evangelism, Veganism, or even adogmatic Secularism, that doesn't acknowledge the human love for myth and metaphor, and would probably like to ban Bach (our beloved composer), because he was very, very religious.. =/
Sea of Madness - please don't give up! Don't let's leave the debate to the super dogamtists on all sides! And please, don't be nihilist!! The world matters, and humans matter, and so do trees, and fish, and dogs, and bats, and stars and beauty and all the rest - because we love them - they is no higher sense or meaning, but we, sentinent beings, really sort of care for life - we play, and eat, and relate to one another, we cry and we laugh and make new, small specimens of our kind, that we watch, as they discover this beautiful world for themselves - and just because there a re people, who take verything too far, and some people at some points seriously mess up, and we have a heap of issues and problems, there no reason, to give in to these, or to give up the world and the wonderful,silly, petty, crazy, funny, stupid, and also at times rather lovable human (and non human) beings in it!
Forgive me for rambilng.. ;)
Best wishes!
p.s. and forgive the typos, too..
I just can't bring myself to care. I'm full-blown nihilist now. I don't have the slightest concern about the fate of anything or anyone now. I just can't do it.
Good. Bye
Good luck on your journey elsewhere.
So you are OKAY with hyper-conservative bullshit, and christians claiming that there is a war on christmas.
You don't have to be Liberal to be an atheist. I think that you are just a hyper-conservative that can't handle being on the outside of the hate mongering. Of course being an atheist will keep you on the outside of the redneck group so here you are saying that you are okay with FORCED religion because maybe, just maybe the rednecks will let you in their group. There is nothing "hyper" about being secular. All secular means is respecting the individual rights of everyone. I guess you don't want to do that. I guess you want to disrespect some individuals rights or maybe even a whole group of people. That is what conservatives do right? They pick a group and unload the most hyperbolic hate they can on that group. So that is apparently what YOU want to do.
You call standing up for individual rights hatred and bitterness. What a big fucking bunch of whiney crap by you!
Being free isn't easy, it's hard. Standing up for individual freedom takes work in thought and action. Being a racist redneck is easy. You can be a lazy fucking hate monger with hardly any effort at all.
This has NEVER been a "christian nation." It isn't based on "christian principles and ideals." It NEVER was. So YOU get over it and don't let the door hit you on the ass when you leave!
MCD is exactly what I'm talking about. A sooper dooper liberal atheist wanting to police culture down to the smallest act. Just look at the sendaway post he/she gave me, "good, bye". What a vindictive person. That's most of the atheist community right there. You don't want to make the world a better place, you just want to spite religion because you hate it. You should try church some time. Find out why Christians are much happier people than you and how bitter and miserable of a person you are.
Mykcob4, I'm not advocating any of that, and never identified myself as a "conservative". I'm merely reacting to a brand of militant atheism and hyper-liberalism that seems to make up the majority of atheists I've seen on the internet, on youtube, in public, and elsewhere. I don't wish to subject any group to bigotry or discrimination, but I'm getting tired of this culture-policing by liberal atheists. A southern "redneck" as you call them (a label I happily claim) cannot even clear his throat standing in the woods without charges of religious bigotry from members of the atheist community. I've seen this in action too many times.
So you are okay not only with the "ten commandments" in courthouses. You are okay with forced prayer in school. You are okay with a "religious test." You are okay with the rebel flag. You are okay with confederate statues. You are okay with institutional racism. It isn't "cultural-policing" to fight for individual rights. It's like mowing the lawn. You mow the lawn knowing full well you'll have to do it again. Fighting for individual freedom against rednecks isn't a "one-time" thing. It is a continual battle. You said that you aren't advocating racism and many things I mentioned, but being complacent and ignoring reality IS advocating those things. That is exactly what racist want, for people to just allow them to carry out racist crimes. It's EXACTLY what the NAZIs counted on, that the German people would just care about anything but their own immediate personal lives.
You said, "The atheist community is no longer for me"
There is an atheist community? SoM, if there are individuals with whom you disagree, then say that. Painting atheists (or any other identifier used by people) with such a broad brush serves only to act as a comment about YOU not anyone else.
I started the opposite of you Sea of Madness, I was more, people can do what they want, even if its stupid, people have the right to do what ever they want. Which I still agree with, if it only affected them.
But I learned it does not only effect only them. I was already starting to figure that out, even in my sheltered liberal city mostly sheltered from the 2009 recession where unemployment has always been well below national averages and average salary well above national averages. It culminated to an exclamation point when trump was elected president. I knew Clinton was no angel either, but trump actually being able to gather enough electoral votes to be president made it very clear to me that this Christian nation can and will harm me and those that I care about far more than I was willing to admit. But perhaps more importantly just how large part of the population can be so easily duped by such an overtly obvious lousy character/policy choice, just because he represents that warm comfortable lie people have been conditioned to believe.
I went from never calling Christians out, trying to understand them etc, to no one has no excuse in this age of information to hide in their warm blanket of comforting lies. The more I read and learned about Christianity and other religions the more I realized they need to go asap. While political and powerful figures use your blissful ignorance of facts to manipulate and control large parts of the population. The rise of alternate facts, the decline of rational, fact based reasoning and argument. Convincing a large portion of the population capitalism is king, big government is bad etc.
I wont argue that Christianity has played a huge role in the culture of this country now. Christianity was on the winning side, wiping out the local populace and claiming it for it's own. History is written by the victors. Nothing new. The rise of Christianity on these lands is not the first and not the last religion to do so. Hopefully not to far in the future atheism, (no religion,) will mostly replace it, a process that is already underway, if slowly and not obviously from the perspective of our own lifespans.
Okay you seem okay with schools teaching creationism and Christianity stuff. Why only Christianity? Can I be a teacher and teach students satanism, ritual sacrifice of humans and eating of flesh? We wont actually practice those in the class room, but we will talk about it, I will teach those impressionable kids why satanism is better then Christianity and atheism. Or how about something more realistic, how about Islam? You okay with me teaching kids the Quran in my class room, and that should go jihad on any non believer/infidel? Do you still not care?
You cant stand a private business to go against their personal moral right to discriminate others? What if they decide they do not like your hair color/eye color combo and refuse to do business to you. What if its grocery stores, and all of them in your area decide to do that? Sure, that will likely never happen, but you are signing off on that being okay to happen to others.
Church and state separation NEEDS to happen. There is a good reason its a core part of the constitution of the US. You of course are greatly generalizing and demonizing a lot of atheist on these boards. "everything have to be a cause for opposition and protest" obviously you do not mean everything, but that is apparently how you feel it is even though you know that is not true.
It most certainly will not always be a christian nation. There is many signs pointing that it will not be. Christianity has been decaying and fracturing in the US for some time, (as well as much of the west,) and history will tell us there is no one dominant religion that has been that way since it was formed. But I get it, within your life time, it is a fairly safe bet Christianity in its many forms will remain the dominant religion in the US. And you said you do not care about anyone else.
I get it though, what can one loud mouthed atheist do? It is easier to just do nothing and avoid the repercussions of religion as best as you can.
But do know, if you are not a multimillionaire, Christianity has definitely had a role to play in you personally not having as positive health outcomes and opportunity as those that are multimillionaires or richer. Billionaires do not have to sit in traffic like the rest of us do, they get to fly over it in a chauffeured helicopter, bought and paid for by the 9-5 workers sitting in rush hour traffic, by selling them a bunch of lies.
I'm not saying we should go full blast allowing Christianity to enforce everything they want. Just choose your battles. No one will be hurt by the 10 commandments hanging on public schools, and anyone who is is a weak little wank stain who deserves to have their feelings hurt.
@Sea of Madness
Do I remember that YOU were the weak little wank stain that came to this forum seeking sympathy?
Forcing religion on people overtly or covertly hurts EVERYONE! For you to dismiss someone that speaks up for individual freedom just proves what a "WANK STAIN" you are.
You can attack me personally all you want. I used to be in 100% agreement with you. I now see that I was wrong. We used to be such a great society before the advent of extreme secularism, and this ridiculous war on everything deemed religious. Let Christianity be the dominant cultural paradigm like it once was. Christians are pretty much expected to commit personality suicide now and captiulate. Everything was better when people just let things be instead of opposing everything. People don't care nearly as much, nor are they affected by it nearly as much, as you think.
Since secularism means "no religious or spiritual basis"; what in the world is "extreme secularism"? It is hard to have less religion than none.
Where do you draw the line? Both Christianity and Islam, (and many other religions,) forbid sex outside of wedlock. You can be whipped, beaten as a male or fined, and as female you can be stoned to death etc.
If we let these religions do what ever they want in our public institutions to further their agenda and political power, because "people that have a problem hanging the 10 commandments in public schools are "a weak little wank stain that deserves to have their feelings hurt." what is to stop them from getting to the point where they can whip you 100 times if they find you having sex out of wedlock?
What is to stop a neo-Nazi white supremacist group forming a "religion" and start hanging Swastika banners up in public schools, and then eventually amend the pledge of allegiance to mention their central figure? Much like how not to long ago, Christianity managed to sneak "under god" into the pledge of allegiance most every school kid is expected to say at the start of classes in many public schools?
Sure that may sound alarmist and extreme, but I am talking about where do you draw the line? How do you make that line fair without it being simply the very reasonable and effective: lets separate church and state?
I draw the line just short of persecuting non-Christians. What most Christians want is just to have some of their freedom back. They want to have Christianity in schools to a superficial extent, and to be able to act and behave like a majority, which is to say that they don't have to tiptoe around the feelings of minorities that make up .00001% of the population. Let them have Jesus back in schools, let there be a morning prayer time, and let them endorse Christianity during school functions, book sales, bake sales, spring/fall festivals, sporting events, etc... America is steeped in Christian heritage, so let it be so. None of these things will hurt anyone in the slightest. Stop policing culture into the abyss of hyper-secularism wherein free expression and everything in public mustn't reference a God of any kind lest there be consequences.
@Sea of Madness: "What most Christians want is just to have some of their freedom back."
I wish that were true. What organized Christianity wants is to get some of everybody else's freedom back under their thumb. You know the old joke about the Pilgrim Fathers? They didn't go to America in search of freedom from persecution, but in search of freedom to persecute. Christianity, like Islam, is not a religion of freedom and tolerance. It's a great Orwellian Big Brother cult that will crush all dissent and difference if given half a chance.
Please don't fall for their "Why can't we all just get along" line.
The FFRF and the Secular Student Alliance disgust me with their ridiculous lawsuits every time someone utters the word God.
Do you even know the law regarding lawsuits? I don't think you do.
1) Every lawsuit is reviewed by a panel of judges (like a grand jury in a criminal case). They decide whether the case is valid or not before it goes any further.
2) The judge that will sit reviews the case and does the same thing. He/she can throw the suit out as valid or not.
3) The defendant in any suit chooses to be judged by the judge sitting or a jury.
4) If the defendant loses the Judge reviews the settlement and can reduce the findings based on case law.
5) The case goes BACK to the review board and they judge if the case was valid and the judgement valid and adjust accordingly based on case law.
6) The defendant has the right to appeal which could be as many as 6 different courts depending on where the case and at what level it originated.
The defendant has the advantage at every step. So you can bang on about what you call frivolous lawsuits all you want but that is a virtual impossibility in the US court system. There isn't a lawsuit everytime someone, as you put it, utters the word "god."
So you can be a nihilist but part of that is not caring about EITHER side, not just one side.
So you are not a nihilist, you are a pro-religious conservative. Which by any real assessment is a religious zealot!
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