A couple of revelations this week.
I have several books by Bart Ehrman .Generally I think they're pretty good. Except for "Did Jesu Exist?" in which he agues the affirmative.
This week I found a debate on Youtube "Did Jesus Exist?" with Robert Price, Ehrman arguing the positive. Interesting stuff, but it has made me question Ehrman's intellectual honesty. Haven't finished watching it yet, will persevere.
Had only heard of Richard Carrier in passing . Found his lecture "Did Jesu Even Exist?" He begins by demolishing current methodologies used for establishing the authenticity of ancient texts. More fascinating stuff. Haven't watched all of this lecture yet either.
Such lectures and debates deserve my full attention, so I watch them in small bits.
I have posted this thread in the hope it may interest at least one other as much as it interests me. Apologies to those who are more erudite and for whom this is old news.
Have posted this in the Debate Room to avoid the usual idiocies of the apologists who find their way here.
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Most likely I’ll take a listen, especially debate format.
It's funny. I'm familiar with Robert Price, but for something other than his work in bible scholarship (he's is kind of an authority on the writing of H. P. Lovecraft). I just checked to see if it is the same guy, and sure enough it is.
On another website I had been asked whether or not I believed that Jesus actually existed. My reply was maybe, maybe not . . . but . . .I don't care, because I don't believe in any god(s), nor in any miracles, nor in any of the so called "supernatural" happenings which people claim to have occurred. So even if Jesus was a real person, that's fine, but if there is/are/never were any god(s), no miracles, and none of the so called "supernatural" happenings, then his supposed divinity, and ability to make miracles occur and his resurrection from the dead etc. are not upheld. Those are not in evidence, except by hearsay.
So maybe there was a dude called Jesus who lived some 2020+ish years ago. If so quite a few people probably met that guy. So what? All we have as evidence is very poor, and highly unlikely to be 100% true.
You could say the same about Mohammed. He probably existed, and yet I see no good reason to get all excited about that.
Jesus, Mohammed, my grandad ~ guys who existed.
They are really good videos Cranky ...I do not agree with Ehrmann either, but he is basing his decision on probability based on Historiography, whereas Carrier is basing his conclusion on actual historical evidence or the marked lack thereof.
Whereas theologists base theirs on presuppositional wishful thinking.
" .I do not agree with Ehrmann either, but he is basing his decision on probability based on Historiography, whereas Carrier is basing
on actual historical evidence or the marked lack thereof."
Yair, thats what I've gathered. I was put off just a bit when I began reading Ehrman's ''Did did Jesus exist?" He uses the phrase 'trained biblical scholars 'repeatedly, as if anyone who is not a member of that club couldn't possibly have anything of value to say .IE a classic argument from authority fallacy.
He pissed me off because by inference he dismisses my discipline, Social Anthropology. OK. I only have an ordinary degree, and it WAS 30 years ago. However, I do understand how to research and scholarly method. Have also done a lot more reading reading since leaving university thanI did in all the years there, and continue to read, albeit at a slower pace.
PLUS the brilliant men who taught me, are very bit as worthy as respect as Bart bloody Ehrman on his best day,AND that includes their scholarship on matters biblical. Anthropology just approaches such things from a different direction.
I shall continue to read Ehrman, but think he's a bit of an arrogant cunt.
"I shall continue to read Ehrman, but think he's a bit of an arrogant cunt."
A graduate in theology and an ex christian....whats not to be arrogant about?
Seriously, yes I agree.
@Did Jesus Exist!, Unfortunately Bart's book was not up to the standard of his other publications. He used nothing new, nothing paradigm altering or nothing revolutionary in any way. He merely used the same old dead information that has been around for years. Even so, the worst part of Jesus Existed Apologetics, it that they mean nothing at all. Bart argues for a historical Jesus. A man. A non-miracle worker. Someone who no one wrote about, who did not perform miracles, and who went virtually unnoticed during his life.. That just leads me to ask, "Who Cares?"
Cranky, I think you will like Richard. He asked supporters what they wanted to know and they gave him $20,000 to research the Historicity of Jesus. He spent 3 years doing a literature review, threw out all the claims that were unsupported or assumed and looked at facts that we actually know. His books are peer reviewed and some of the very best we have IMO.
I know you are going to do your research because that's just the kind of person you are. Please feel free to share in the forums or PM. Carrier is one of my favorite authors.