I've been wondering about this for quite a while. I've read/heard some atheists say they chose not to believe in god(s).
But for me, it's NOT A CHOICE.
I simply cannot force myself to believe something I deem to be ridiculous.
I wonder if my fellow atheists feel the same. Please share, thanks.
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Hey there, CHK-C. Have to admit I'm with you on this. My mind simply will not allow me to accept the absurdity of the whole thing. Never made much sense to me as a kid, and it makes even WAAAAAAY less sense to me now. Sadly, the only thing that kept me shackled to it for a majority of my life was that insidious threat of hell that was drilled so deeply into my psyche during my childhood. That nagging, debilitating, and ever-present "What if I'm wrong" voice at the back of the brain is a real bitch to shake. But shake it I finally did. And now that I am free, I cannot even remotely imagine falling back into that trap again.
Edit to add: By the way, what happened to the Clow-on-a-Cross? That was a fantastic avatar... *chuckle*...
Tin-Man, thanks for sharing.
I'm a life-long atheist who grew up in a city (Hong Kong) where there isn't one dominant religion. I guess that gave me the opportunity to look at different religions without bias. Luckily, I decided that they're all the same ... utter B.S., and I simply can't force myself to believe any religious crap.
I use to believe, wholeheartedly in fact , but when I made the move to be a better Christian what I discovered made it impossible to believe the woo. It's a story common to many atheists.
It was like those puzzle drawings of an old and young woman. You'd see one but not the other at first but after a while it would be impossible not to see both. I preferred seeing the younger woman. Reason makes me see reality. Rationalism is preferable to mysticism.
christardology is inconsistent within itself and far too illogical to believe in, as are all religions. christardology, as with all religions, is totally and utterly without proof. Religions were created by mankind to control mankind. Today, christardology is no more than a business. The collection after a service is a tax on the stupid. To believe in christardology is intellectually dishonest.
In the UK, the majority is Atheists. The trend towards Atheism looks set to continue. I look forward to the day when the religtards of the UK form a very small minority. The smaller the better.
One day, in the future, Man will look back on the period that he believed in gods and say 'People in the past believed in what?' They will then wonder why.
Is being a religtard a choice?
'Give me the child for the first seven years and I'll give you the man' may well be a valid saying and therefore, for some, being a religtard may not be a choice. I have confronted many a religtard and, even when presented with proof that parts of the babble are lies, show no interest in changing their belief system. In fact, they believe that there is a conspiracy against the religion and dig their heels in even more. For these people, being a religtard is not a choice. For others, it may well be.
Far Canal: "Religions were created by mankind to control mankind. Today, christardology is no more than a business."
Kewl. Alright, Dude. Someone who believes exactly as I have my entire life. You and I just might make bitter enemies… ;-P
rmfr
For me, it always felt fake and unnatural to pray and believe in these things. So I'm agreeing w the op and Tin man.
This falls into two distinct areas of conversation. In some nations that are basically ruled by a religion, you are not allowed to be anything but a "faithful" citizen. We are all aware that some nations have zero tolerance against atheism.
But for what goes on inside my head, that is my "freedom" to choose. And for me, the arguments against theism are too compelling and logical to arrive at any conclusion but that the god story is just a myth.
One has just as good a chance convincing me that 1+1=2 is false than convincing me that a spiritual world exists.
IMO: Belief is not a choice. We believe what we perceive to be true. Surround yourself with idiots and you will probably be an idiot too. It is not a conscious choice. All the information you have about the world is idiotic. People once believed spirits caused ills. They believed the world was flat. They believed in all manner of Gods and deities. What changes is a desire to find truth when what you believe does not work. When your neighbors believe in different Gods and deities for the same reasons you believe in yours. Some people begin to question their beliefs. Finding no support or evidence for the belief and finding rational ways of explaining the world around without supernatural or unrealistic claims, new beliefs are adopted. For the most part, our beliefs match the reality in which we live. Delusional beliefs create a delusional reality. More realistic beliefs offer a more realistic reality.
For explanation I offer one of my favorite YouTube videos. A cop was shot in the neck and was bleeding out. One of the neighbors came over to him and told him help was on the way and to hang in there. Then he raises his hand to the sky and starts screaming "God help this man." He does not apply direct pressure. He does not help the man to a safer location. He does not get a towel from the house or grab a local newspaper to make a pressure bandage (If you did not know it, newspaper is sterile and makes an excellent tool for first aid.) This idiot talked to the sky while the cop bled out. FUCKING ASSHOLE AND HIS FUCKING GOD.
It reminds me of the idiot parents who try to pray the illness away. Child abusing assholes who do not deserve to have children.
Perhaps after a few kids died they would question their beliefs. One of my university professors once told me, "Believing is seeing." It is a useful thing to remember when interacting with clients in counseling sessions. We may share this world but how we make sense of it can be extremely different.
For those who were subject to the usual methods of supernaturalist coercion as children, their "belief" wasn't a choice. Which is another reason modern day supernaturalists hate living in a world where people like ourselves can present a rational, consistent and coherent alternative. The same supernaturalists also know that their mythologies, and the ludicrous assertions contained therein, cannot compete on a level playing field, because in such a discoursive environment, the absurdities of treating mythology as fact become manifest - sometimes hilariously, at other times in a much more sinister manner. This is why supernaturalists seek to perpetuate the corruption and perversion of the arena of discourse, that their supernaturalist ancestors enjoyed through force.
@OP/CHK-C
“Is belief in God a choice?”
I will have to say yes and no.
I will try my best to answer this question the most secular way I know how since, the majority here do not believe in God.
I will start with probably the easier answer which is No.
No, because once people see and/or believe in something to be true they tend to believe it. And once people see and/or believe something to not be false, they tend to reject it. Whether it’s God or anything else.
Yes, because even if someone did think God is true they still have a choice to believe in that God or not. And that belief in is the form of actions and words. Also, people can know something to be true and still deny it for many reasons, whether it’s intellectual (or lack of intellect in a case like this), personal, emotional or anything else. Some people have become an atheist or theist simply to feel welcomed and part of a community/family, while others have rejected atheism and theism for the same reason. For example, many atheists have said they would still not believe or follow God even if it were true, seems like that’s a choice to me.
However, with all that said, if people were 100% honest with themselves and took their personal needs and wants out of the equation, and made a firm commitment to only follow what they 100% believed to be true, without any predisposed inclinations, in that case I would say the answer is No.
Some people say that kids don’t have a choice and blah blah blah blah. What do you think about atheists that have become theists later in their lives? I am asking that question in regards to do you think it was a choice or not. There are few videos that I have seen of scientists that are also atheists that have become theist later on in their lives, do you think they had a choice? Or was whatever evidence they saw “force” them in to theism?
@SFT
"There are few videos that I have seen of scientists that are also atheists that have become theist later on in their lives, do you think they had a choice? Or was whatever evidence they saw “force” them in to theism?"
SFT, you are addressing CHK-C, but I thought I would chime in. You pose an interesting question, and I suspect there are three answers, maybe more. I have talked with theists who look at all the complexity in nature, but don't accept the explanation biological or stellar evolution provide, and reason that only God could be the source of all this magnificence. They see Nature as the objective proof of God's existence (I suspect this may explain your own position). Others, such as myself, explain everything in the knowable Cosmos through science. We truly don't see God in anything. Then there are folks like Francis Collins, a scientist, who fully accepts the scientific explanations, but who still makes room for God. Collins started as a Christian, became an atheist, and then went back again. He claimed to have seen the beauty of God in a frozen waterfall. Read his book, The Language of God. His science is impeccable, his historical understanding of Christianity is immature and broken.
@ Bob L.
Someone needs to go back to school and learn how PROPERLY nested HTML tags works.
rmfr
shhh, he's learning. Actually learning.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq6T5BojXc8
Damn! I was shocked It kept running for so long.
That was great.
rmfr
What the fuck was THAT??? Holy hell! I hit that string of shit and thought my phone was screwing up on me!
@Searching for truth
If someone thinks God exists, wouldn't that mean he/she already believes? The choice is whether to worship such god or not.
Well I guess some people can actually choose to believe something despite a complete lack of evidence. In that case, it's usually an emotional decision, such as the fear of death, the need for pseudo comfort, and the desperate desire to have answers for everything.
@SfT
I am actually very curious what their stories are, what made them switch from atheist to theist. Especially if it occured as an adult. While I get the general "comfort" religion offers, as well as community etc. Do they just set aside their doubts and fake it to gain these comforts or do they truly believe in whatever god they decided to believe in.
If a god was proven "true" (not sure how that could happen but if it did...) It would depend on what the details of the god was. If it was a god that was: believe in me and worship me or you will burn in the fires of hell for eternity, I would definitely "follow" said god just to avoid that. Pretty much the same way a person pointing a loaded gun at me can get me to do/say many things I would not normally do.
If it was a god that was like: "hey man just be a decent guy, I am not jealous or require worship," I would probably adjust my world view some, but carry on living much like how I been living I would not be atheist anymore. But I certainly would not go to church or waste to much time worrying about said god, I would simply just enjoy my own life. I would sit back and be amused at how all the world religions got "god" so wrong though.
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▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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@Logic
Youtube has some videos you can watch and hear it from those people first hand. I believe that should with your curiosity.
That would be the logical response for obvious reasons. However, there were some people on these forums that still said they won’t. I am going to try and find that thread, not for the sake of argument but, to show that even hypothetically speaking, some people would still deny God even if they thought it was true.
@Hulkster Re: "However, there were some people on these forums that still said they won’t. I am going to try and find that thread..."
I'll save you some trouble. I'm one of those people. To clarify, however, IF the god in the bible (or Koran) were somehow ever proven to be true beyond a shadow of a doubt, then I would obviously (and rightfully) be considered crazy/insane if I told people I do not believe they are real. IF they were shown to be absolutely totally real, then it would be the same as my saying I do not believe in horses... or cars... or the air we breathe. At the same time, however, even IF these gods were real and the same as depicted in their respective holy books, then there is no way I would follow/worship them. One, I think they are incredibly horrible narcissistic insecure tyrants and bullies. And, two, if they are as omnipotent and as omniscient as they are portrayed as being, then my faking of worshipping them would be a ridiculous waste of time. They would (SHOULD ) know. In which case there is absolutely nothing I could do about whatever they choose to do to me. Somebody please tell me WHY that is so difficult for some people to understand?
@SfT
I recall the thread, but don't recall from memory who said what. So feel free to link if you want. I might of even myself said I would not believe in a god even proven. And now I take more of a "depends what god" that ended up being proven.
I ofcourse think if there was some god that got revealed, it would be nothing like the god concepts most people worship today. And even before that, logic dictates that the far and away most likely scenario is that there is no god.
I avoid youtube videos for the most part but I may try poking around and seeing if there are any good videos on the atheist to theist subject.
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▮I am an atheist that always likes a good debate
▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
▮Tips on forum use. ▮ A.R. Member since 2016.
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@ NSfT and LogicFTW
Continuing...
Even if to me ANY deity was proven to exist beyond any conceivable shadow of doubt, especially if it is Jealous or Allah, I definitely would not worship either. Instead, I would walk to it and bitch-slap it. Then I'd say, "How dare you terrorize humanity the way you have? How dare you terrorize those idiotic religitards to terrorize humanity in your name?" Then I would spit in its face and walk away. Perhaps if I had need, I would also piss and shit on its feet.
rmfr
EDIT: corrected pronoun usage
@CHK-C
"Is belief in God a choice?
I've been wondering about this for quite a while. I've read/heard some atheists say they chose not to believe in god(s).
But for me, it's NOT A CHOICE."
I am in agreement with you; seems like most of us are. I know that for myself there was one day in particular that I still remember well, when I was actually startled to realize I'd lost all belief.
I've also been a life-long atheist. I obviously mulled over the ideas of God and what everyone around me kept trying to assert, but I never once accepted any of it as truth, never once sincerely believed. As the OP says, I simply couldn't. There was nothing I could see/feel/experience behind any of the words of all those Christians, or Muslims, Jews, Hindu, etc. It was just a bunch of crap that sounded nice to a lot of people. Heck, even I am a fan of fantasy and mythology - I think it's all really cool. But I feel forced to recognize it for what it is: not bound to the reality I experience in any way. I see exactly the same amount of "evidence" for God or Allah or Brahma as there exists for the Greek pantheon of gods. There is literally no difference except that more people still believe in some of those others to this day.
@ CHK-C
What you said…
rmfr
PS — now to read the other replies…
My father taught me to trust in reason. If you use reason as a means of seeking truths, you will do well. For me, it is beyond reason to support a belief in any god...thus far. I say that because, if one becomes overwhelmingly and definitively evident, I will then choose to believe...because reason dictates so.
I chose to erase the text of the double post I just made, because my other choices suck.
In the interests of rigour, I think it is apposite to rephrase the title of the thread. Because the issue being introduced here, is can we adhere to mythological assertions, yet remain discoursively honest?
Which is the actual; question being asked here, when one breaks out the microscope, so to speak.
If adherence to mythological assertions requires one to reject observational data in favour of doctrinal edict, disseminate easily exposed falsehoods as if they constituted fact, and engage in the various brands of discoursive mischief that have been observed as being practically endemic to certain brands of supernaturalism, then the answer is, of course, no.
Discoursive honesty requires proper application of certain cardinal rules, central among these being that assertions always possess, upon presentation, the status "truth value unknown", until appropriate test remedying the epistemological deficit has been conducted. This applies to all assertions, regardless of source. Attempts to exempt a particular source from this rule, and grant unto that source discoursive privileges that are denied to all other sources, is manifestly dishonest, and this practice is to be subject to withering, excoriating exposure as such.
If one's adherence to mythological assertion leads down that mendacious path, then those who recognise the value of proper, robust rules of discourse, are obliged to reject that adherence. In this particular, well-defined sense, "belief in god" is not a choice for anyone valuing discoursive integrity.
I hope this is sufficiently lucid to be of utility value here.
I wouldn't follow a being there was insufficient evidence for, or which threatened torture if I did not follow them. That would not represent my idea of truth.
If everyone acquiesced to torture, the world would be a very sorry place indeed.
Such a being could not prove to me that for example that I was not being tested for my principles by a higher being: one that considers torture to be fundamentally immoral.
I cannot force myself to believe in something contrary to my instincts, nor can I willing carry out actions I think are immoral or follow a being that engages in actions I think are immoral.
For those who think their beliefs are above believing in nonsense, Psychology not only disagrees but can actually develop studies to alter your sound beliefs based on your own real observations to completely wrong observations. "Group Think" is real and it can effect all of us. "False Memories" are another culprit. We all believe thousands of things that just aren't true. Beliefs are cultural and social, we accept most of them without thinking. It is only when we begin to question our beliefs and seek facts and evidence supporting them that our eyes are open.
SOME OF MY FAVORITES TODAY:
Viral Killing Hand Gels Help to Stop the Spread of Flu Virus. (Really? This is pure advertising bullshit. The gels do nothing to the virus but smear it about and stick it to your skin.) Soap and water can knock the virus from you hands and that is about it for fighting a virus.
Going outside on a cold day without a sweater or jacket or with wet hair can make you sick. More Bullshit. Colds are caused by viruses NOT being cold.
How about, "Hamburgers are delicious." No self respecting Hindu would touch one.
Pork is not healthy - it's dirty meat. Could all of Islam and Christianity be wrong? (Of course they could. Dumb question)
Point being. If we really look at beliefs we hold we can find thousands of wrong and irrational beliefs. There are entire theories of psychology based on this. REBT, RET, Reality Socratic Questioning, and more...
We are all subject to irrational beliefs until we recognize the belief we hold, bring it to the front of our awareness and then critically examine it.