I m here to ask for knowledge not to debate :)
I just have a few small questions to ask an atheist because I do not personally know any smart people who are claiming to be.
-why does one chose to be ?
-how can one be certain there is no god ? ( i myself find the idea of existence of god intriguing but ... to say for certain on the matter on the existence of god as positive or negative is absurd because there is no proof denying or proving its existence . )
-How can one be certain all religions are false ?
-Why atheism is becoming like a popular clan to join ?
-All people are bragging what Label they're wearing , Shouldn't one's beliefs be a private matter both Atheists and Theists alike?
-Why do almost every atheist say is proud to be one and brags about it like if it was a victorious deed and if they are so smart and all theists are dumb peasents? - why so condescending ?-
-Why do most atheist dislike or resent religious people ?
-Isn't following the good teachings of a religion better than to have no religion at all ?
-What binds a person to morals and ethics if there was no religious motivation ? if one believes in the certainty of the non-existence of a god then , why bother do good and why not commit crimes the law cant catch u doing ...
i am not trying to persuade u or invite u into abandoning ur thinking .i m just looking for answers to know more and to understand how an atheist got there ! ( i myself thought once there isn't a god for certain but i had come to a conclusion later that i am wrong)
ps : I m neither atheist nor theist , not pro religion nor against .
i just seek enlightenment :)
and btw , proving bad points in religions , does not mean atheism is right and that religion is false .
much like saying a guy is a crappy painter but that doesn't mean he cant play music . he might be a better person and artist than another great painter.
It's All about perspective and i have known enough people to be able to see from different perspectives and even Am able to play a devil's advocate at any time.
- Sorry for the long post if i could i would give u a potato :3
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OK MLuca .....
I Got a couple of questions of my own ......
You posted ,"I do not personally know any smart people who are claiming to be."
Im assuming that you are saying you don't know any atheists......
and yet ...
"Why do almost every atheist say is proud to be one and brags about it like if it was a victorious deed and if they are so smart and all theists are dumb peasents? - why so condescending ?-"
then ....
"Why do most atheist dislike or resent religious people ?"
If ,as you claim ,you know no Atheists....where do you get these strange claims from ?
Another of your small questions ...was ,"why does one chose to be ?"
I cant speak for others but for myself....it is not a choice .... my own intellect will not allow me to accept the butchered shards of belief originating with cattle slaughtering ,bronze age ,nomadic goat herds ,cobbled together over millennia by greedy ,grasping individuals for what today pass themselves off as true religions.
And another...,"how can one be certain there is no god ?"
I am not certain there is NO god..... but I am certain that there is no Abrahamic god. If it comes from the Talmud ,the Bible or the Koran........ it is provably false.
"Isn't following the good teachings of a religion better than to have no religion at all ?" ......
Certainly not. Because you cannot separate out the good teachings from the bad...... its kind of an all or nothing deal ..... you don't get to pick and choose...even though many theists will try this tactic.
OK ..I'll leave it there for now...perhaps some of the others will pick up your small questions....
-why does one chose to be ?
I don't think one does chose what to believe, if they are intellectually honest. It is a matter of being convinced that something either is or is not the case...
-how can one be certain there is no god ?
One will never be absolutely certain either way, in all honesty, so we assign levels of certainty based on the information at hand. I will also never be absolutely certain either way concerning your existence, outside of my own head, but I can operate under the assumption(based on experience) that you do until enough convincing evidence is provided to undermine that experience.
-How can one be certain all religions are false ?
By studying them. If they include false claims and/or information, then they are false by definition. Let us say that you had an encyclopedia, and you found that there was much false information in it, do you:
A. Assume certain bits of it are true, despite knowing that it contains falsehoods, with no way to honestly determine if it is true.
B. Assume all of it is false, because you know that it may be false, until such a time that you can verify that the information is accurate.
I am in camp B, and I would sincerely hope everyone else is, because it is the only one that makes a lick of reasonable sense.
-Why atheism is becoming like a popular clan to join ?
You will need to explain, as last poll showed that atheists are still less liked than any other group or minority in America, the only group that ever came close to being as despised as we are is Muslims, and that was only for a couple of years after 9/11.
-All people are bragging what Label they're wearing , Shouldn't one's beliefs be a private matter both Atheists and Theists alike?
Should be, but it isn't, and as long as Christians are attempting to browbeat society with their convictions; we will continue to oppose them. Atheism wouldn't be a thing, nor even relevant, if religious dominionism would die the terrible death it so obviously deserves.
-Why do almost every atheist say is proud to be one and brags about it like if it was a victorious deed and if they are so smart and all theists are dumb peasents? - why so condescending ?-
As for why we are so vocal, we do so as a way of normalizing and affecting the view of atheism. It was once considered the same as Satanism, but we have managed to make it a separate and distinct category in the minds of the populace. Over time, as more of us "come out", it will become a more normal and acceptable thing. Thus, people won't have to pretend just to get along, nor be ostracized simply for being and atheist.
As for why we are 'condescending', I urge you to look at how we are treated and talked about. When you are called fools, reprobates, and people who "just wanna be bad"; you tend to take a dim view of the people doing it. It is almost like atheists might be responding to the stupid stereotypes and characterizations made about them, doesn't it?
-Why do most atheist dislike or resent religious people ?
We usually don't, we are surrounded by them. We usually only dislike or resent the people who are continually foisting it off on us or attempting to preach at us. We view them little better that other Christians view Mormons.
-Isn't following the good teachings of a religion better than to have no religion at all ?
Not if the 'good' teaching are so indistinguishable from the bad that people confuse the two. Look at some of the actions of the religious based on those 'good teachings'.
Good people will do good things, bad people will do bad things, but to get good people to do bad things you need religion.
-What binds a person to morals and ethics if there was no religious motivation ? if one believes in the certainty of the non-existence of a god then , why bother do good and why not commit crimes the law cant catch u doing ...
First we need to deal with the idea that religion binds people to morals in the first place. Let us look at the supposed 'morality' of religious people. Does being religious make you less likely to do things like rape, steal, or murder? Not apparently. There have been numerous studies attempting to show either a positive or a negative correlation between religiosity and violent crimes, and there almost always appear to be a negative correlation. While I wouldn't argue that it means that religion causes one to be immoral, it certainly suggests that religion does NOT have the influence over morality that people seem to assume that it does.
So, if religion isn't what binds us to our morality(and we have little to no reason to think that it does), why the hell would a lack of religion impact morality anyway?
"-proving bad points in religions , does not mean atheism is right and that religion is false .
much like saying a guy is a crappy painter but that doesn't mean he cant play music ."
No, but it does mean that he isn't producing great art masterpieces to be hung in the Louvre, doesn't it? So, if a religion has bad and downright false parts, it does make it a bad and downright false religion, by every definition; doesn't it?
- Sorry for the long post if i could i would give u a potato :3
I have a fifty-pound box, but I appreciate it. I also appreciate your apparent curiosity, and possible open-mindedness. While I also will not urge you to reconsider your position, I hope you find these answers satisfactory.
Do you believe in talking snakes, babies born to virgins, being able to move a mountain simply by having the " faith" that you can move it ( too bad that dosen't work for the diseased, starving, dying children in many parts of this world...I know, I know, God has NOTHING to do with that!!) canes turning into snakes, babies being ordered to be killed by an all loving God because people simply don't believe He exists, turning a sea red with blood with the touch of a cane ( boy, that cane can do some amazing things...too bad we can't confiscate it so we could stop the mass killings of innocent people in the name of God!!) What kind of logic, reason, and intelligence would have you believe these outrageous things, and then to turn around and say that if someone DOSEN'T believe them that there is something wrong with THEM, and they have no intelligence? ( you said you do not know ANY smart people who claim to be atheist) But you have the GALL to think YOU are smart for believing this trash...UNBELIEVABLE!!!!
Standard "atheist are jerks" dribble. When your arguments won't hold water, insist your opponents(s) are jerks!
Tune in next week on the Shitty Arguments for God™ channel for "you aren't a real atheist"; where we will define our opponent's position in such a narrow manner, there won't be anyone left holding it. Then we'll claim victory!
I m here to ask for knowledge not to debate : Then don't post it on the Debate Page, post it on the Hub.
I just have a few small questions to ask an atheist because I do not personally know any smart people who are claiming to be.
-why does one chose to be? : When did you choose to be a theist? It is *not* a choice, it's just a state of non belief based on evidence shown. Simple as that.
-how can one be certain there is no god ? ( i myself find the idea of existence of god intriguing but ... to say for certain on the matter on the existence of god as positive or negative is absurd because there is no proof denying or proving its existence . ) : Because the existence of a god is extremely illogical. These "Gods" are described as omnipotent. Omnipotence itself is impossible, as a state of being able to do anything and everything results in paradoxes. By omnipotent logic, god can create a rock he can't lift. However, this would make him not omnipotent, as he wouldn't be able to lift the rock, thus him not being able to do everything.
-How can one be certain all religions are false ? : Evidence and logic dictate whether or not something is True/False.
-Why atheism is becoming like a popular clan to join ? : Because people are becoming smarter, looking at all of the scientific evidence and realizing their religion is false.
-All people are bragging what Label they're wearing , Shouldn't one's beliefs be a private matter both Atheists and Theists alike? : Religion is a very Cultural thing, as is lack of Religion. It means you live by a certain set of rules that you need to comply with (or in the case of Atheism, you *don't* have that set of rules). When Cultures clash, it gets public.
-Why do almost every atheist say is proud to be one and brags about it like if it was a victorious deed and if they are so smart and all theists are dumb peasents? - why so condescending ? : Not all Atheists are like that, what you just described would be a stereotype.
-Why do most atheist dislike or resent religious people ? : Well, if somebody supported the death of another person merely because of their belief, wouldn't you judge the person who supported that death?
-Isn't following the good teachings of a religion better than to have no religion at all ? : "Good teachings" is subjective. Not all people think those teachings are good.
-What binds a person to morals and ethics if there was no religious motivation ? if one believes in the certainty of the non-existence of a god then , why bother do good and why not commit crimes the law cant catch u doing ... : You don't need a religion to tell you what's moral or immoral. Humans are able to do that on their own.
There, I believe I have answered all of your questions.
"I m here to ask for knowledge not to debate : Then don't post it on the Debate Page, post it on the Hub."
Quick note, M Luca is a non-atheist and they can't post in the Hub.
thank your for ur responses , and I promise to try to reply to every point :
---------------------------------------watchman -----------------------
,"I do not personally know any smart people who are claiming to be."
I do know some who claim to be atheists , but none of them was smart enough to convince me why he chose to besides that "religions are dumb, wake up it's the 21th century , if there was a god why r there a lot of misery and evolution is the truth..." and all that crap .
so personally I know none who can keep up with a serious discussion away from copy paste.
...,"how can one be certain there is no god ?"
in ur answer I found a missing link ; how do u know for sure the ibrahamic god is false ? I myself have tried and succeeded in both convincing a muslim of the idea of the falsehood of islam , a Christian in the idea of falsehood in Christianity and non believer to join the ranks of muslims .. and FYI ; My intellect doesn't allow me to BELIEVE in anything god or no god , the only thing logic tells me that the possibility is there ! so I do not judge people when they chose to decide which to take as truth because some people cant handle living in doubt , they need smthing to believe in ... not all minds are rigid ..
aside from that , kudos I agree with most what u said (y)
-------------------------------------------------------------------Travis Hedglin--------------------------------------------------------------------------
about how most atheists are condescending towards theists :
from the comments in facebook pages that I have been following silently for two years and this is my first time I make a comment and ask people their beliefs. it's out there and no need to try to say that being different from a floc doesn't make some think themselves better regardless of intellect or achievements .
Regarding morality ... you must have met so few if never a religious man ; because in this words a pious is eaten alive ...
Religion is all about fearing god's wrath and trying to be nicest to others and do good deeds and help till one dies .
other than that it's just cuture ,
going to church doesn't make one Christian , feeding the homeless does , but we dont see many Christians do it ..
praying 5 times a day doesn't make u Muslim , being nice to neighbors and helping the poor does .
same as killing the enemy in war doesn't make u a hero , saving lives does.
people have forgotten that saving lives is worth more than looking good.
and that's why most people are far away from the teachings of their own religions .
I see it firsthand in my country . within my circles ...
But
The question about Morality , why shouldn't one do as he please if there is no punishment .. and that's frankly an question I m still looking for an answer for.
-------------------------------------------------------------------reality -------------------------------------------------------
I am not even gonna dignify u with a proper reply , u came in charged up with ur prejudices .
take some cold water and when u're cool enough to have a serious civilized discussion like these fellows here I ll lend u an ear
-----------------------------------------------------------------------Nyarlathotep --------------------------------------------------------------
ur cynicism wont get ur anywhere with me , I m not ur typical theist muslim/Christian who dislikes being pushed around because he tries so hard ti show u to his right path ...
if anything I can lead u to , is more questions about what u believe in and what u affiliate urself with .
and yeah , u atheists are really not so different fro them ... individually , u might be smart comprehensible thinkers but in masses u're just like cattle , running to crush whomever in front of u .
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------Austin Hodge--------------------------------------------------------------
sorry about putting the post here , I m new ^^"
disapproving something with proof is not the case here , there's is no tangible proof of the non-existence of a god or multi-gods
only lack of evidence in approving there are any , so both claims are corrects in a way , yet everyone claims the certainty the other is false ...
"You don't need a religion to tell you what's moral or immoral. Humans are able to do that on their own."
actually no , morality is taught to us ! from birth we're spoonfed what to think , what to feel and what to do .
-
but I do strongly approve on one point u mentioned : " Religion is a very Cultural thing"
yes it is , and too bad religion has become mostly nothing but a culture ; it used to be a relationship between a god and man
but socialism has made it worse ..
even Hinduism , Buddhism , and Sikhism which were built on a spiritual guidance are nothing now but culture and traditions
*******************************************************************************************
with that I think I covered enough ponts to respond to :)
looking to hear from u soon :)
"actually no , morality is taught to us ! from birth we're spoonfed what to think , what to feel and what to do ."
Okay... maybe I mis-phrased what I meant. I meant to say that people have different views on morality. What one person views as right another person may view as wrong. It's all kind of subjective, to be honest. Of course, I think War is wrong and unnecessary. But, that's my view on things. Other may see War as a good thing, as it brings an end to militant groups like the Taliban and Al Qaeda and such. To put it simply, Morality is almost an opinion of what a person thinks is right or wrong. It's just that many people have the same views on morality.
I'm sorry for mis-phrasing my statement, that's my bad.
"Why does one choose to be?"
One doesn't "choose" to "be". We "are" by defining. For example, I'm American. By definition, that means I was born in America. I had no choice in either the definition of "American" or in the borders that define America. I tumbled out of a vagina, and this is where I landed. I have no choice in the definition of what "being" is. I just am, and people define words to describe the world, and in turn describe me. I am, just as you are.
"How can one be certain there is no god?"
You can't truly be certain, but my stance is based in the styling of the American Judiciary system. If you assert a claim, you must show an overwhelming amount if evidence to show that anything else can not possibly be true. However religions fail miserable to produce a single god or miracle for scientific scrutiny. I know the common adage from theists is often "But absence if evidence isn't evidence of absence!", which may very well be true. But if in a court of law you can produce no evidence to show a very overwhelming probability an action, say a miracle or a murder, occurred... Then the case is dismissed.
"Why do Atheist dislike religious people?"
Probably for the same reason a rape victim is disgusted and angry at their rapist. Religions are not just a set of personal beliefs. They are a shared set of customs and ideas, and when they have popular support... Religions as well as other political giants, have a habit of shaming, bullying and/or trying to eliminate minorities. Forced conversions, rape, torture, murder, taxes, exclusion from politics, slavery... All very common. Historically anyway. The Muslims in North Africa and the Middle East seem to be the only ones practicing such barbarity on a large scale now, but that shit still happens on the small scale everywhere, and every "Religion" has committed it on the large scale at some point in time. Except perhaps the Mormons, but at 300 years old, they've got plenty of time to hit the big leagues.
"Isn't following the Good teachings of a religion better than no religion at all?"
In a perfect world... Unfortunately most religions are a bit of a complete package deal. Every religion ever has espoused an air of certainty and completeness of all it's teachings. It would break the veil of "religion" and show religion's true nature and origin as a political system if people were to read all the laws and rules their ancestors generated, and tried to decide in modern times if they are right or wrong, good or evil, beneficial or detrimental, or a mere personal choice. Even the "Good" rules of yester-year may fall out of favor. Just look at the battle for gay rights... Most people support it now, but the moral majority of yester-year vehemently opposed every notion of homosexuality. I guess the answer in short is no, not even adherence to a religions "Good" rules is a "Good" thing. "Good" is a very religious term in itself, and every religion totes all it's teachings as "Good".
"Why is atheism becoming a popular clan to join"
Because a lot of men and women from the past had come out of hiding to show that lack of belief in the supernatural and superstitious was just fine. That ideas and critical thinking against popular opinions was the forerunner of change and advancement. I guess, that atheism finally had some role models and leaders so that we didn't have to feel alone, and isolated, and forced to hide who we are out of fear and shame of the religious zealots who raved at us, telling us we were "evil" and must change and believe in their religion to be "good". Men like Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins, Mark Twain, and as a martial arts enthusiast, my personal favorite philosopher and fitness buff: Bruce Lee. In short, we've always been here, but never had out own group. Now, we do.
"What binds a person to morals and ethics if there us no religious motivation?"
"Morals" and "Ethics" are more deeply religious terms. "Ethics" is just a system of morals. "Morals" is derived from the old Latin terms moralis, meaning "message" or "teaching", and mores, meaning "habit". The Roman's noticed this uncanny connection between a person's teachings and their habits enough to have several closely related and pronounced words for them in their language. Moralism is a message or teaching that is developed into a habit. That's the Latin gist of this connection. Religion has hijacked this observation and Latin terminology on how teachings become habits, and turned it into word for spiritual absolutes. I guess the real question is why does anyone bind to teachings and habits? Mostly because they think the actions to be correct. But morals... It's become this out of reach term for a set of laws people honestly don't realize that other people made up and wrote down. It's more or less a make believe term, and it'd be a waste of time to decide to make, follow, or enforce laws based on "morals" (previous techings/habits). it'd be substantially more productive to argue laws as "dentrimental" or "beneficial".
Anyway, that's as many questions as I feel like answering.
"from the comments in facebook pages that I have been following silently for two years and this is my first time I make a comment and ask people their beliefs."
Well, I don't know about facebook, as I don't use it for anything but the one-click login stuff. However, a lot of it is where you are, so I am not sure what it is like where you are. It seems pretty obvious that having posts about god cluttering my wall would probably irritate me, which is part of the reason I don't use facebook in the first place. It also occurs to me that in many cases, people usually get more hostile to close friends/family members over it, though I am not entirely sure why. Probably has something to do with build-up and history.
As far as your post, I do not think I was too unduly harsh or disrespectful to you, even if I disagreed with some of your points.
"it's out there and no need to try to say that being different from a floc doesn't make some think themselves better regardless of intellect or achievements ."
Tribalism.
"Regarding morality ... you must have met so few if never a religious man ; because in this words a pious is eaten alive ..."
I have met many who claimed to be religious, pious, and even righteous; but all of them are just men. Regardless of all the preaching they may do, they themselves are just as guilty of many of the evils they point out in others. In fact, some of the most religious people I have ever met where the most deeply flawed people I have ever known.
"Religion is all about fearing god's wrath and trying to be nicest to others and do good deeds and help till one dies ."
Nope. It is all about following the 'rules' of whatever deity you happen to worship. Take the bible, it LITERALLY says that deeds don't matter, only FAITH. You could be the most despicable human being on the planet, but if you believe and repent, you will never be punished for it in the supposed afterlife.
"other than that it's just cuture ,"
Tell that to the families of those who lost loved ones due to religious terrorism.
"going to church doesn't make one Christian , feeding the homeless does , but we dont see many Christians do it .."
Hell, I have fed the homeless regularly, does that now make me a Christian? No. Belief in Christ makes one a Christian, nothing more or less, otherwise it is just a repackaged no true Scotsman.
"praying 5 times a day doesn't make u Muslim , being nice to neighbors and helping the poor does ."
I'm a Muslim now, too? I think you need to reevaluate your definitions, it seems you are using a bad dictionary.
"same as killing the enemy in war doesn't make u a hero , saving lives does."
It is usually the combination of the two that makes a hero.
"people have forgotten that saving lives is worth more than looking good."
I used to be a paramedic, and have no idea how many lives I helped save, but that does not make me a hero. I did my DUTY, I don't need a cookie for doing it, and anyone that demands one is a self-fellating ignoramus.
"and that's why most people are far away from the teachings of their own religions ."
Except when they aren't. You are, rather conveniently, glossing over the metric ton of bad commands in these religious texts to prop up the rare bits that promote love and/or peace. Forget all the proscribed public execution, slavery, and genocide; just focus on the handful of fluffy bunny bits and pretend they never happened!
"I see it firsthand in my country . within my circles ..."
I have seen many things firsthand, but I don't usually extrapolate those onto the rest of the world, because my personal experiences are not shared by all of the public at large.
"The question about Morality , why shouldn't one do as he please if there is no punishment .. and that's frankly an question I m still looking for an answer for. "
Who says there won't be punishment? We have punishment in the here and now! Sure, it isn't eternal and it doesn't persist past death, but that is part of what makes it just. Finite crimes DESERVE finite punishment. Meanwhile, I have a question for you:
If you could do ANYTHING you wanted with the assurance that all you need do is simply repent, and thus avoid divine punishment for your crimes, why wouldn't YOU?