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Bhawkins
Can you prove we have a soul?
Just for fun- can you prove we don’t? Don’t answer that.... I’m just playing to the assumption I ask these questions to convert people. Not desiring a debate, just interested in what people have to say.
BHawkins: Define the soul and its properties. Then, perhaps, we can get down to the nasty business of disproving it.
@Bhawkins "Proof a Soul does not exist." You made up the definition, Absence of evidence.
Yes. In every ancient manuscript the translation of soul means "BREATH." In no ancient manuscript is it "ETERNAL." The bible clearly states that animals have souls.
"In legal matters also, the word soul was used to denote any individual. The Lord told Moses: “Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, ‘If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done’ ” (Leviticus 4:2).
Bible in a variety of ways. First, it is employed as a synonym for a living, breathing person. Moses wrote: “All the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls” (Exodus 1:5;
....the word soul can be used to describe the physical form of life that both men and animals possess and that ceases to exist at death. In their Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, Brown, Driver, and Briggs noted that the word “soul” (Hebrew nephesh) often is employed to mean “life principle” (1907, p. 659). In Genesis 1:20,24,30, God spoke of the nephesh hayyah—literally “soul breathers” or “life breathers” (often translated as “living creatures” or “life”—cf. Leviticus 11:10). The writer of Proverbs observed in regard to animals: “A righteous man regardeth the life (nephesh) of his beast; but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel” (12:10). Hebrew scholar Hugo McCord therefore suggested:"
Then the translators realized that the first meaning of nephesh is “breath,” and so Genesis 1:20,24,30 and Genesis 2:7 all fit together in understanding Moses as saying that all animals and man too are breathers. Breathers, coupled with hayyah, “living,” the translators thought, would be well translated, in the case of animals, as “living creatures,” and in the case of man as a “living being” (1995, 23[1]:87-88).
Your own Bible REJECTS AN ETERNAL SOUL - The idea was invented. Cut from whole cloth. Pulled out of the asses of Christians.
Next: We have absolutely no evidence for anything called a soul. NOTHING. We are 99.9% sure that there is no such thing.
Lack of evidence "IS" evidence of absence. EXAMPLE: I think there might be a bear in a certain cave. I put meat in front of the cave and it rots. I look for bear paw track and never find any. I build a fire in front of the cave so the smoke goes inside and nothing happens. I throw cats into the cave and they come out unharmed. I watch the cave for three years and never see any evidence of a bear. Guess what!!! I am nearly 100% certain that there is no bear in that cave and even if there was one it is dead. Well, for your stupid soul idea we have 2000 years of NO EVIDENCE WHAT SO EVER. Your soul does not exist and I am 99.9999% sure of that. PROVE ME WRONG. SHOW ME ANY REALISTIC RELIABLE EVIDENCE FOR THE EXISTENCE OF A SOUL.
@ Cog
Applauds wildly from the bleachers, *spills beer, drops hot dog* searches for 100 agrees button.
"Just for fun- can you prove we don’t? Don’t answer that.... I’m just playing to the assumption I ask these questions to convert people. Not desiring a debate, just interested in what people have to say."
Argumentum ad ignorantiam
"Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence") is a fallacy in informal logic."
It's surprising how many theists use this line of reasoning, and don't seem aware it's fallacious. Argumentum ad ignorantiam is often used (as you have done here) to try and reverse the burden of proof. I don't claim or believe there is no soul, anymore than I claim or believe there are no mermaids. I simply don't believe either exist as no objective evidence can be demonstrated to support the claim.
Out of curiosity other than your religious beliefs. do you believe things for which no objective evidence can be demonstrated?
@BHawkins:
Origin-
Where do you think man came from/ how did we get here?
I'm made of hydrogen atoms that were formed after the Big Bang, and heavier atoms that were fused in distant supernovas and drifted here across light years. My cells are the result of an unbroken chain of cell division going back to the first life form on this planet (or possibly another planet if you subscribe to the panspermia theory). My human form is the result of evolution in a changing environment. My DNA makes a cousin to every living thing on Earth.
Meaning-
What is the meaning of life as you see it? Is it about being happy, doing good to fellow man, living for pleasure, etc.
The meaning of my life is to find the meaning of my life. I do that by thinking, learning, helping people, enjoying good times, and recognizing that the bad times make me stronger.
Purpose-
Do you think each human being has a purpose for being on the earth?
See "Meaning"
Destiny-
What do you think happens to the part of us that makes us “us” when we die?
Recycling and oblivion. What more do you want?
I've shown you mine. Now you show us yours.
Thank you for replying. I don't want to open the can of worms that sharing what I believe will inevitably open since I came here to search out opinions of others. I am grateful for your honest answers- it has helped me so much.
@Bhawkins: I don't want to open the can of worms that sharing what I believe will inevitably open
Cop out?
It sounds like you're embarrassed by what you believe, or perhaps you fear you'll lose your faith under the impact of arguments based on reason and evidence.
Just for your homework, ey? Not going to stick around and share what you believe? Let us know what grade you got.
Bhawkins, you asked, “What would you say your beliefs are? Atheist, Agnostic, leaving a certain religion,etc. One word description is fine.”
I believe in the designated hitter. You really, really need to understand that ‘atheist’ is NOT a belief.
“Where do you think man came from/ how did we get here?”
Pure chance.
“What is the meaning of life as you see it? Is it about being happy, doing good to fellow man, living for pleasure, etc.”
I think the meaning of life is living.
“Do you think each human being has a purpose for being on the earth?”
No
“What do you think happens to the part of us that makes us “us” when we die?”
Poof.
Thank you so much everyone. I have enjoyed reading your responses, challenges, and even the criticisms. I apologize for the nerves that I hit when I use the term belief system. I feel like not believing in something still means you believe a fact about that thing, regardless of what it is- it's just the opposite side of the coin. I don't believe in vampires because I don't think they are real, but I am still stating a belief/thought/opinion about them .Some people legit believe in vampires and think they are real, which is also stating a belief/thought/opinion about them. Weird example, but the only other thing I thought about is the chair analogy which is overused.
I have enough material thanks to all who answered my questions. I will bow out now and sign off the site once I get the response from the kind person who promised to respond after work. Have a good evening.
Poseur! This is a debate forum that you voluntarily joined.
I like how you you compared it to the sides of a coin (a binary attribute); which makes this false dilemma easy to spot.
@ Bhawkins
So you are in this site for less than six hours, then scamper away? Do you believe that you have interviewed a large enough sample size for your study to be valid, or that you have allowed yourself to be exposed long enough to get a basic grasp on what atheism is all about?
You state that you understand your minimal exposure to the outside world, but make the very minimum effort to peek outside the curtains.
Please do not run away to get back into the safe shelter of your comfortable world/beliefs. Yes, some of us in here can be rough, but that is what we deal in, honesty, sometimes brutal and in-your-face honesty. How can you pretend to be a wise or knowledgeable person when you knowingly live a life of ignorance?
One day you will be a mother, and eventually your children will grow up, be exposed to various ideas via the internet,TV, or college. If you sincerely want them to grow up in your belief system, you need to start preparing now, and expose yourself to foreign ideas and have answers ready when they begin to ask the tough questions.
It's all for school. (Notice she and "Great Hope" started their threads within several minutes of each other. I've seen college kids do this in a computer lab.) My guess is they'll return to read and copy/paste what they need for class. Which is why I didn't want to respond. I didn't want to be misused. But maybe responding was worth it.
You are incorrect. Imagine one night we are looking at the stars you tell me that the number of stars in the sky are even. I tell you that I do not believe you. That does not mean I think the number of stars are even. I do not believe you have counted them. I do not believe you have any idea at all as to what you are talking about. You have no more of an idea about how many stars there are in the sky than I do. The God issue is exactly the same. There is no evidence that anyone has ever seen or experienced a God. No evidence what so ever. If you happen to guess right, it will be pure luck and not based on any actual evidence. I reject your assertion that there is a God.
Re: Bhawk - "I will bow out now and sign off the site once I get the response from the kind person who promised to respond after work."
Wow.... Talk about, "Wham! Bam! Thank you, ma'am!" Not even the common courtesy of a reach-around. Even just a little kiss would have been nice.
Edit to add: Just noticed Bhawk is a female. She must have used a strap-on.
I think I know why Bhawk bounced out of here so quickly. She was afraid our Heathen Cooties are contagious. Or....
She jumped into the deep end of the pool, but forgot her arm floaties. Or....
Honest and straightforward answers were screwing up her woo-woo feels-right circuits. Or...
Cog farted.
Naw; they'll be back to read, and/or respond. Their profile tells when they last logged in, which is why I love this site so much. It keeps folk accountable and transparent as much as privacy will allow.
No, she was being controlled. Just look at the time stamps on her posts. She logged in just after noon, then departed before the sun set. And by the nature of her responses when some pushed back, they were either scripted or she had someone looming over her shoulder and directing her on what to say. What teen does not reply fire with fire?
No doubt that after her departure she was debriefed by her parents/spiritual guidance/pastor, and then whisked away to be wiped clean of any evil thoughts.
Whoever she is, I feel sorry for her. She is under tight control, brainwashed and not allowed to think otherwise. She will never enjoy the fresh breeze of freedom, or the joy of just cutting loose.
Everything had the hallmarks of a cult.
@David
Sounds like a pretty damn good assessment there. Nailed it. And, yep, it is sad.
Killens, good observation, there.
Yes, I feel sorry for her, too. It sounded for like Xtian script, though. The stuff she is fed. But you could be right
JW's are like that. They have classes where they memorize what to say to the most common questions heathens ask. (family member is JW)
"I feel like not believing in something still means you believe a fact about that thing, regardless of what it is - it's just the opposite side of the coin."
No this is irrational, and epistemologically false. It would mean the burden of proof for any claim would be split equally between belief and not believing even where those beliefs were not supported by any evidence. If I claimed I had an invisible dragon, you'd have to disprove the claim or accept it was a 50/50 premise.
"I don't believe in vampires because I don't think they are real, but I am still stating a belief/thought/opinion about them ."
You're stating that you don't believe they exist, by definition the lack of a belief cannot be defined as a belief. Incidentally you don't say why you don't believe they are real, which I find curious.
What would you say your beliefs are?
I have a whole lot of beliefs about a whole lot of things. You need to be more specific. For example, I believe you can read. I actually believe you are a student working on a project though I have no evidence at all supporting that statement. I believe the sun is a burning ball of gas. Of the thousands of beliefs I have, which one are you concerned with?
How did we get here: I walked.
What's the meaning of life: LIFE: 1. the condition that distinguishes animals and plants from inorganic matter, including the capacity for growth, reproduction, functional activity, and continual change preceding death.
Where did man come from: Man evolved from an earlier species. That's pretty much a fact, or, are you trying to ask where life came from?
What is the meaning of life? You mean the meaning of my life? My life is about enjoying myself. Avoiding pain and engaging in things that give me pleasure. It's pretty simple.
Does each human being have a purpose? Each human being gives themselves purpose. Your purpose is what you do. Your purpose here is to gather information. My purpose in responding to this is to kill time and entertain myself. Your purpose is what you do.
I came back to the forum today to see if there were any new comments. It is so facisnating how harsh some people are in their assumptions of someone they do not know. I view this sort of format much like people driving; they are willing to hide in a big metal barrier, protected from face to face interaction, while they non-verbally tell the world to f-off and get out of their way. There is so much aggression when the risk of face to face interaction is so low. Every now and then, one of those road ragers gets out of the car and walks up to the driver that has enraged them to shoot them in the head. Thankfully, that doesn't happen very often. Many of you are the same way. The ones that try to belittle my intelligence or turn back on me with rude, vulgar comments show their state of mind and heart. It doesn't anger me or frighten me because I know that hurt people hurt people. You are the little boy on the playground that hates the pretty girl so you nail her in the head with a rock for no other reason than she represents everything you know you could never be. I find it terribly sad, actually.
I am not in a high school computer lab with someone standing over my shoulder coaching me. I am a grown woman who has been married for more than a quarter century and raised four amazing kids. I own a home and pay my taxes. I get up and go to work everyday, just like many of you. I do not have a higher education because I don't think it matters quite as much as the masses think. I can not go head to head with those of you who fancy yourself intellectuals, with your philosophical statements about life and religion because I don't need to. I aim to live a simple life and do good to my fellow man.
I am the woman that will kindly let you cut me off in traffic because I have nothing to lose and have enough self-control to not give an angry driver the power to steal my peace of mind.
I have read a lot about people who would be categorized in our time as the New Fundamental Atheist. They are very verbal about their belief in the non-existence of God and want to spew their thoughts on all the believers that dare to stand firm. Not to say everyone who has commented here is like that; I have actually had some pleasant interactions with those who are respectful of my position. It is human decency that spurs us to respect a person regardless of their opinions, especially the ones that differ from our own. Any one can love someone like themselves, but it takes a lot of character to show love and kindness to someone on the other side of the fence.
Just so I can say I put all my cards on the table, here are my thoughts on each of the four categories:
I don't just believe IN God, I believe God.
Origin: I believe that I am a created being made in the image of an intelligent Creator. In my mind, there is no way that we are each so alike and completely different without the design of a intentional creator. I have stood outside on a clear night and been in awe of the stars in the sky and never doubted for a moment that when God's Word says he placed them in the sky and called them by name that it is true. It's all so beautiful and perfectly held together that it seems impossible that it all just evolved from nothing. 'Nothing' can't create 'something' so remarkable. This world is unfathomably beautiful and it has yet to be completely understood in all of its intricate ways. I believe God created the heavens and the earth and placed finite creatures on it to rule over it and to use its fruitfulness to live and enjoy living. He made the earth with an end as well, but will not allow his finite creation to discover all there is to discover. He always keeps it out of our reach for our own good. This is why I believe science is always changing and the God of the Bible is not.
Meaning/ Purpose: As I read and study the Bible, it reveals to me that I am made to bring glory to God. I do that by showing his communicable attributes to my fellow man (my neighbor) while holding firmly to the belief that only God is in control, is the only one who knows the heart of man, is the only one who can be present everywhere at all times. My purpose is to love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength and to love my neighbor as myself. I understand that we are by nature recipients of God's rightful wrath because of the willful disobedience of the parents of mankind. From that day forward, God has dealt with an disobedient and obstinate people. We will always seek to be the ruler, seek to rule over others, and seek to be our own gods. By nature, we are children of wrath. Sin courses through the veins of every human being. It is only through the payment of the sin debt by Jesus Christ on the cross that can save us from that wrath. We all deserve death. But in God's mercy he has chosen to protect some from eternal death. So my meaning is found in living as redeemed from the curse of the law,and my purpose is to bring glory to the one who gave his son for my redemption.
Destiny: My husband is in public service and has been with hundreds of people as they've taken their last breath. He has seen the change when a soul leaves the body. It is the very first to go. The soul is the life and breath of each of us. I know that God has placed eternity in the heart of man because we all long for more than this earth. Whether you are honest about that longing or not, it is undeniable. It is why nothing every truly last and never totally satisfies. So my destiny is to leave this body that I dwell in order to be in my eternal home. I can't get there from here without passing through death, but the minute I die I will be present with the Lord. I do not fear death, because Christ has removed its sting through his own death on the cross. The soul of every man will live on, either in heaven or in hell. God will have a final judgement where those who hated him will be cast into a lake of fire and those who have loved him will live on in a new heaven and a new earth.
I understand it is hard to believe, but I also know that God chooses the foolish things of the world to confound the wise. Those who think He is non-existent consider themselves wise in their understanding. He says they will have their fill of their understanding for all eternity as they remain separated from him.
If you haven't read Jonathan Edwards' Sinners in the hands of an angry God, I would encourage you to do so. I shudder at the thought of the full wrath of God being released upon those who count themselves his enemy.
And of course, find a Bible. Read it. Challenge it. See what all the fuss is about for yourself. Don't take anyone's word for it by just repeating what others say. Read it for yourself. Take a risk by asking the God of the Bible to reveal himself to you.
I see that atheism can be summed up in the words of R.C. Spoul, “ the issue has not changed and is not intellectual but moral: Man suppresses the truth about God and seeks to live without restraint. The scariest thing to a sinful person in all of the world is the holiness of God.”
And lastly, what IF you are actually wrong and Christianity is right?
My apologies Bhawkins, but going by your behavior I believed that you were one of many drive-by theist who ask then run. But then again, you did not give anyone much to go on. So we had to make assumptions.
I puzzles me that you now explain you life experiences, yet on your introduction, my interpretation was just the opposite.
Why did you mention guns, is that some kind of threat? This is a peaceful place, yet you mentioned the G word.
"I shudder at the thought of the full wrath of God being released upon those who count themselves his enemy."
Yea, this god is quite an asshole. And it is a shame your god has led you to be such a threatening person.
Bhawkins
"And lastly, what IF you are actually wrong and Christianity is right?"
Pascal's Wager, I have seen this threatening behavior before.
What if you are wrong?
I could look up an old comic strip for you as your post makes me think of it. It basically shows a Christian bashing an atheist over the head with a cross while calling him names and when the atheist finally takes away the cross and starts to snap it in half the Christian goes 'Hey, how about a little respect here?'
While you didn't precisely come in and start bashing people over the head and calling them names you had to know what you were getting into as even if you are the single nicest person in the entire world you are starting this conversation with 'you're evil and I think you deserve to be tortured for not believing the same thing as I do if you die not believing it'
That is what you must believe as a Christian.
Very few atheists will assert that there is no god. I'm not saying there aren't any atheists that do that but they are few in number. Almost all atheists you will ever talk to will say they don't believe in god because they've never been offered any evidence to suggest that there is one much less the further evidence that would be required to assert the existence of a particular god. You are also dealing with a group of people in atheists who are not only quite familiar with what's in the Bible, but they're probably more aware of what's in it than most Christians.
This is where it gets tricky.
While all atheists lack belief in gods the way in which they will react to certain 'god ideas' varies by individual. Some will not care at all but some, like myself, will respond to being told what your particular idea of a god is with varying levels of unpleasantness. In the case of the Christian idea of a god I will state that the Bible does not present a good case for the god within it as it makes him out to be one of the most disgustingly evil creatures the human imagination can conjure up.
This is to say there are two things in play here:
1) Lack of belief gods
2) Reaction to particular ideas about gods
And yes, the 'what if you're wrong' thing is one of those tired old nonsense arguments I assure you almost all atheists have heard and knocked out of the park a hundred times. It's a false dichotomy that presents 'either my god or no god' when the fact is that Christians and atheists could both be wrong as there are thousands of possibilities including the fact that if there is some kind of god he isn't found in any of the religions and is something else entirely.
But I will tell you one thing: If there is a god and this god judges people based on how good or bad they were in life, I'm liking my odds a whole lot better than people who spent their whole life telling everyone 'believe as we do or burn in hell'.
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