As a Christian we believe that God has given us freewill and the ability to freely make choices, etc. As an atheist, how do you understand the experience of freewill? Is this an illusion? Is it real and just unexplained?
Here is the logic I would have: At the moment of the big bang everything we understand was put in to process. Eventually, stars, planets and people were created. If the big bang happened exactly the same way in another universe, the exact same progression would happen. The reason is that if all their is in existence is created forms of energy and nothing is capable of directing those forms of energy other than the laws of physics, there should be no difference between galaxy's even down to the last leg position of an ant.
If something outside of the material does exist what it is?? If it doesn't exist, do we have free will? Wouldn't every last particle of our being ONLY do what physics dictates? If it can be manipulated somehow, what is the non-physical entity that is capable of manipulating an object into disregarding the laws of physics?
Same question could be posed to theists... if you believe in Freewill, what part of you allows you to manipulate your brain outside of the laws of physics? How does that work and why can't we detect it? I would say, that I do not know, but I definitely believe free will is real.
Thoughts? I am curious about how most athiests understand the concept of freewill.
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@orignal post by Christian_Engineer
It is actually an interesting question I wrestle with all the time. Do we have free will or is it an illusion? I think it comes down a lot to how exactly you define free will.
I can tell you, if someone subscribes to the various "god" theories, that only makes that question much harder to answer, even if people write: "god has given us free will" if people also include their god idea is all knowing, then no, we do not have free will, as the two are incompatible. (Incidentally if god is all knowing and knows the future with absolute accuracy, even god would not have free will!)
While I wrestle with the question (I am not sure if it is even answerable) I assume we all have free will, or the "illusion" is good enough for me to pretend we have the pleasant thought that we have free will.
The thought experiments makes it even trickier. Does someone put under by medication for surgery have free will while under the effects of the drug? How about someone on death row, with all 11th hour execution stays exhausted? What sort of "free will" does that prisoner have? It would seem his will is not very free.
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▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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"if people also include their god idea is all knowing, then no, we do not have free will, as the two are incompatible. (Incidentally if god is all knowing and knows the future with absolute accuracy, even god would not have free will!)" (Sorry I don't know how to pull quotes yet)
LogicFTW, why do you believe that to be true? I would think that you can be all knowing and all powerful yet others the freedom to act according to their own will. You know the outcome in advance, you allow it to happen but you can still allow someone to choose something and experience the consequences of that choice. A simple example would be if I saw an ant walking towards glue, I know he is going to get stuck, he doesn't know it. I can allow that ant to continue on its path freely even though I know the outcome of him choosing to do so. Make sense? is my logic off somewhere?
If your god is all knowing and all powerful, then why are 99% of all species extinct? Or why did RNA come before DNA? That smacks of incompetence.
I don't see why God couldn't create as he see's fit.
So you claim to know the nature of your god?
@Christian_Engineer
See my signature at the bottom of this post, (click the useful list link,) on how to do block quotes like I do.
Hmm how to explain this... without writing a book...:
They key problem you run into here is the word "all" in the statement "all knowing god." Such absolute words get theist in big trouble all the time.
For god (or anything) to be able to completely accurately predict the future, (especially for things like knowing the winning lotto numbers for every lotto 1000+ years in advance before lotto was even invented by humans.) That means the future cannot change based on the actions of people, animals, or anything at all (including god it self) that can change the future to something different where suddenly god would not know the outcome and therefore not know everything.
Saying god can predict all possible futures to allow free will is actually saying god cannot predict the future at all and therefore again, is not all knowing. (Think about it... If I tell you I can predict all futures, but cannot tell you which future will actually occur based on "free will", I have given no all knowledge accurate future prediction information at all.) If god can tell you which future is more likely over others that still means god does not know everything only simply which is more likely based on the interference of "free will" that is not "ALL" knowledge. A supposed god may be able to give more accurate predictions then people can with their computers, but it still underlines limits to his power and proves the description of god as all knowing incorrect.
So, you cannot have it both ways. You can either have an all knowing god and no free will, or only a "partially all knowing god" and "free will."
Obviously a "partially" all knowing god does not read well in a holy book trying to convince people to give their money, efforts and lives to a completely unevidenced idea.
Do you know for sure? What if the ant turns at the last possible moment as it starts to near the glue and goes around? What if a gust of wind scattered the ant away before reaching the glue. What if I followed you around and ran over and smashed the ant before it could do so? The point is, you do not know everything, so this is a bad example, a misleading example. You are not thinking on terms of knowing everything like a supposed god idea can. If you knew everything you would already know if you were going to help it or not. You already would know the ant will get stuck in that glue without any possibility of it going any other way. Or someone/something could have a "free will" moment and perhaps hit your car on the way over to the location of where the ant will be, and instead of that ant fleeing in terror of your giant foot (to the ant) and run in terror strait into glue, it instead in the possibility of free will scenario does what all other ants do, if they can, detect the presence of glue in time, and go around.
If you are still do not understand perhaps I can give you an engineering oriented explanation, which field of engineering did you study?
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I didn't read all of your reply, but I guess I believe God is outside of time. Thus capable of being all knowing and allowing for decisions. I don't believe time exists for God. All moments are as if present.
@Christian_Engineer
"I didn't read all of your reply, but I guess I believe God is outside of time. Thus capable of being all knowing and allowing for decisions. I don't believe time exists for God. All moments are as if present."
Time is a necessary component of this universe. To state that anything is outside of time is stating that it does not exist.
Would it be churlish to ask you to evidence these claims?
@Christian_Engineer
So you still don't get it.
But you stated you did not read all of the reply, so not doing yourself any favors for understanding.
I am guessing you like to say " I don't believe time exists for God. All moments are as if present."
But I am also guessing you have could not explain how all that works and you just accept the quote as an explanation.
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▮Please include @LogicFTW for responses to me
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Christian_Engineer,
"I don't believe time exists for God. All moments are as if present."
The wonderful thing about Gods is that they are all imaginary so people can give them whatever qualities and attributes they want to give them. And because they are imaginary everyone can have his own deity that fulfills whatever fantasy the person has.
It is a damning condemnation that your god did not go back in time and undo some of the horrors it created. If I had such power, billions of children would not have suffered or died.
Anyone who is aware of gravity does not believe in free will.
I'm a determinist in the sense that I believe that every action is determined by the laws of nature.
This does not mean however that I don't do actions in accordance with my taste. But I do not regard my taste as something as being ultimately determined by me. In common conversation, I still talk about my "choices".
I don't think everything was set in stone from the time of the Big Bang. For example, you can't predict when and where virtual particles pop into existence in quantum fluctuation, and you don't know which atom changes next in radioactive decay. The tiniest deviations may cause profound changes to the outcome in the long run.
The "Big Bang" may not herald the beginning of the universe we know. We do not know what happened before the rapid expansion.
"If the big bang happened exactly the same way in another universe, the exact same progression would happen."
No. It has been determined that at the beginning of the rapid expansion there was turbulence. In theory it should have been a calm homogeneous medium. On a large scale the universe can be perceived as homogeneous. But since it is not homogeneous on a smaller scale, then random factors are in play.
"if you believe in Freewill, what part of you allows you to manipulate your brain outside of the laws of physics? "
I don't. All of my brain activity occurs within this real realm, and there is no soul, spirit, ghost, angels, or deities. If I was able to use my mind "outside of the laws of physics" it would be nice to change TV channels.
Yet again I think the late Christopher Hitchens gave one of the best answers to this question I have heard.
"Yes ok if you want to word it that way then I have free will, in fact you could say I have no choice but to have it."
Christian_Engineer,
"I would say, that I do not know, but I definitely believe free will is real."
I come from a very long line of Ammonite bastards so even if I wanted to believe in Jealous I can never join his congregation. Therefore my free will does me no good because of what my ancestors did.
I think (ha!) free will is an illusion. I can't control which memories I remember or forget, I can't give you a "real" reason why I chose to eat a wrap for lunch or why I didn't feel like taking the freeway this morning. My brain's function is just a matter of cause and effect.
Though this perspective can sound bleak, it's actually a great source of compassion. I get frustrated when someone says, "Well if *I* had been in his situation, *I* would have done things differently." Uh, no. If "you" had his body, his brain and his experiences, it would be impossible for you to choose something different as his actions are a result of all of those stimuli/causes. There's no magical "you" that could rise above the circumstances any better than he did.
This can help us to set aside hatred and judgment and leave us looking for ways to change the stimuli in our world - ways to throw a wrench in that person's (or our society's) trajectory. Though whatever we choose to do also wasn't really a choice at all. Ha!
Jade, that's what I'm thinking too.
Every decision we make is influenced by our surroundings, our feelings and then become our thoughts, which leads to our actions. My body shakes when I'm cold; I put on my coat. My friend says DON'T think about pink elephants; I think about pink elephants.
It makes no difference to me if free will exists or not. It seems, though, it makes a huge difference to a lot of theists. Without free will, the rug is pulled out from under many religions.
@OP
Yes I believe in free will because we’ll, let me try pinching myself. Ouch that hurt. Let me try replying to your message. Boom. Done. I willfully and freely did all those things. I can also willfully and freely do many others things as well. Personally, I do not think you MUST believe in god to “believe” or accept free will
@Searching for Truth
Do you believe that your god is all knowing?
If so are you aware that all knowing and free will are incompatible based on generally accepted definitions of "all knowing" and "free will."
@ Logic
Hey buddy, how you been? Yes I believe God (Allah to be exact) is all knowing but, respectfully, disagree with your statement of “If so are you aware that all knowing and free will are incompatible based on generally accepted definitions of "all knowing" and "free will."” Just because something is all knowing does not mean there is no free will. I am sorry but I fail to see the logic in your statement.
@Searching for truth:
An "all knowing" and "all powerful" being cannot have free will.
Because... If he knows all the events in future, that means he also knows what decisions he will make in the future. That implies he cannot change his decisions in future otherwise he will not be all knowing.
@Hitch
Sorry but I think you seemed to have gotten confused somewhere. I am the person that has free will. I am NOT all knowing and all powerful. I am talking about people not God.
I also completely disagree with your self contradicting statement “ An "all knowing" and "all powerful" being cannot have free will“ but, that’s a different conversation for a different day
@Search for truth
I already ran through this in a different thread recently so going to summarize here:
If you want to claim something to be "ALL knowing" Then it has to know the future as well, ALL of it.
If something knows everything about everything of the future, then the future must be predetermined, therefore with predetermination there is no free will, not for you or me, or anyone even a "god."
Why must the future be predetermined to know everything about the future?
Well if you throw in free will, suddenly the future is no longer 100% accurately predictable, and suddenly you have a gap in "gods" all knowing knowledge. (Even if a god could still predict the most likely future, that is still a "guess" and not 100% perfect knowledge of everything.
Therefore a "god" can be either all knowing and there is no free will, OR a "god" is NOT all knowing and there is free will.
Back to the whole: "all knowing" and free will are fundamentally incompatible concepts by their definitions. The problem with exactitudes like: "all."
@Logic,
Sorry, Logic but i disagree with everything you said and do not agree with the logic and rational you have used to reach your outcome. With all due respect but, its posts like these that prove me to that 99% of people on this forum do not understand God. And definitely do not understand free will and Allah as it pertains to Islam.
You said ""all knowing" and free will are fundamentally incompatible concepts by their definitions" to be more accurate you should have said they are incompatible by the definitions YOU are using. My understanding and definitions clearly differ from yours but, i will keep this short instead of arguing semantics. I am OK with agreeing to disagree on this.
@ SfT
Redefine away, it seems every theist in this place has a grudge against the compilers of dictionaries. Theists on these pages just redefine words to suit their assertions...amazing...
for your information SfT the definition of all knowing is "Knowing Everything" ...cant be much clearer than that. the synonyms bear that out.
and "Free Will" defines as "noun
1.the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion
So if Islam( well english speaking Islamic clerics and scholars) have redefined the words then it is news to me and the rest of the woprld...perhaps you can provide some names we can ask? I will certainly ask my local Imam tomorrow when we have coffee...
@ SfT
"I will certainly ask my local Imam tomorrow when we have coffee..."
Well I asked him and a couple of others and they don't seem to have the memo about changing dictionary definitions either. I dunno perhaps they are the wrong type of Muslim or something....But they all (and the local Anglican who also arrived) agreed that the definitions stay..there was a huge discussion about "Free Will" and the concept of a godhead...but it would probably be too complicated for you SfT...beingas you already have all the answers.
@SfT
That is fine, no need to apologize, this is a debate forum and differences of opinion is to be expected.
You say you disagree with the logic/rationale of what I wrote, do you also disagree with everything I wrote in the post you replied to?
If so, hmm where to start? Maybe it will be easier for you to state why you think that is not true. Is it just definitions? Perhaps explain your definitions?
Do you believe your god is "all knowing" or only of great but not complete knowledge?
I imagine 99% of all people do not understand your version of god. I fully admit that I do not understand the islam god (allah) or the christian god, (although I have had a lot more exposure to the christian god ideas.)
Can you do a quick summary so we can debate that?
While I did not take the time to carefully look up all the definitions I used, I do think they more or less correspond with most commonly accepted english dictionary definitions.
What definitions are you using?
Me too, but that ends the debate, and we are on a debate forum, and I find people's rationale on this subject if it is different then mine quite interesting, plus it helps me understand. I have learned a lot on these forums. Not that there is or is not a god, but how theist of various religions think and defend their ideals and even how atheist think.
Obvious do not have to discuss if you do not want to, but I am very curious how you reconcile the issue of all knowing vs free will.
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