ex nihilo nihil fit

111 posts / 0 new

Tue, 08/29/2017 - 02:08

Nyarlathotep

Those are some pretty wild statements about infinity. Gonna have trouble getting people to swallow those I think; especially me.

Tue, 08/29/2017 - 04:50

(Reply to #62) #63

xenoview

Peripatetic

Peripatetic
Trolling will eat you up, and make you a bad person.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 18:53

(Reply to #63) #64

Kwahu Jakquai

@Peripatetic

You choose to dismiss debating with folks you feel are morons do you? Perhaps you should count your blessings that atheists do not do the same or perhaps you would have been dismissed long ago?

Tue, 08/29/2017 - 01:11

(Reply to #64) #65

Peripatetic

i have never dismiss debating

i have never dismiss debating with anyone.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 03:48

(Reply to #65) #66

Nyarlathotep

Peripatetic - It doesn't

Peripatetic - It doesn't matter what they say, in both cases the universe would still need a cause Since it's contingent

begging the question

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 04:38

(Reply to #66) #67

xenoview

Peripatetic

Peripatetic
No one knows what created the universe. Can you prove the universe is not eternal? Can you prove there is a necessary cause that created the universe?

edit

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 15:25

#68

mykcob4

Amazing Dumb Ox. How

Amazing Dumb Ox. How appropriate your moniker is.
You can't know what "nothing" is and yet you define it for your narrative. Your god came from nothing, yet you dismiss the FACT that everything came from nothing.
The only difference between the idea that something comes from nothing and that a god created everything is the interjection of a god. Your OP is too long and just a few paragraphs in anyone can tell that it is filled with false premises and faulty logic, so I quit reading half way through.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 02:52

(Reply to #68) #69

Peripatetic

"His" god, in fact, doesn't

"His" god, in fact, doesn't come from anywhere. he has always been there. there was no point at which he doesn't exist and then he exists. when are you gonna let these concepts sink in? What did you, atheists, choose to deny if you're not aware of the basic concepts of what you're denying?

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 04:41

(Reply to #69) #70

xenoview

Peripatetic

Peripatetic
Why do you theist act like a god is real without proving it? When you prove a god, then we have to figure out which god it is that humans worship.

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 15:37

#71

algebe

Dumb Ox:

Have you ever heard of the lex parsimoniae (a.k.a. Occam's razor)?

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 16:02

(Reply to #71) #72

RedleT

Yep

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 16:11

(Reply to #72) #73

algebe

So why are you adding

So why are you adding unnecessary complexity by introducing this additional unproven assumption (god) into your argument? Your argument for god as the first cause is based on deterministic causality. Is your god exempt from causality?

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 19:02

(Reply to #73) #74

RedleT

He is exempt in the since

He is exempt in the since that he did not need to be caused. He is uncaused and necessary. Now, do believe causality isn't always predeoctable, at least by us. I don't see how I am a determinist if I believe nothing comes from nothing.

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 19:29

(Reply to #74) #75

algebe

@Dumb Ox: "He is exempt in

@Dumb Ox: "He is exempt in the since that he did not need to be caused."

That is the unproven assertion on which your entire argument depends.

@Dumb Ox: "I don't see how I am a determinist if I believe nothing comes from nothing."

That sounds like the very definition of determinism to me. You're saying that every event is caused by prior events, that every thing is the product of prior things. There's no room for chance or free will in that world view. Your declaration that god is exempt from the chain of causality is simply an expression of faith on your part.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 02:04

(Reply to #75) #76

Peripatetic

God is exempted for the

God is exempted for the absence of the subject. Our major premise is " Contingent things must have a cause" not " All things must have a cause" So, since god is not contingent then he is not an instance of the subject 'contingent things' so he is exempted from being caused.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 04:06

(Reply to #76) #77

Randomhero1982

You are yet to prove he

You are yet to prove he exists let alone not contingent.

So he is certainly not exempted from being caused.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 04:36

(Reply to #77) #78

algebe

Peripatic: "since god is not

Peripatic: "since god is not contingent"

You speak as if you know something about god. You don't. Nobody knows anything about god. There is no basis, logical or empirical, for the existence of such a being.

Yet here you are, presenting claims as if they were proven facts. "God is not contingent" is just another way of saying god is not caused, so all you're saying is god is not caused, therefore god is exempted from being caused. Your argument is flying in ever-decreasing circles around nothing.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 05:59

(Reply to #78) #79

Peripatetic

Randomhero1982

Randomhero1982
Algebe

it's clear now that you don't have the slightest knowledge on what you're denying. Most of atheists' ignorant objections here are because they have no idea what contingency, necessity or impossibility might be. the basic concepts in theology and metaphysics are completely stranger to you. what kind of free thinker does not know the basics of a subject he rejects? i think it's the kind that is not a thinker at all.

You said "Your argument for god as the first cause is based on deterministic causality. Is your god exempt from causality?"
Seriously!! how can god being the first cause match with being caused? what makes a thing a first cause is that it does not indeed get caused by anything which exists since it would not have been the first cause in the first place. so you're contradicting yourself. An argument that proves a first cause proves a necessary being. and what is necessary in itself is, necessarily, not contingent.

so, from your statement i was just clarifying that being a first cause means the same thing as being necessary. so your statement is contradicting itself.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 07:49

(Reply to #79) #80

Randomhero1982

You argued that god is

You argued that god is contingent, you have yet to prove a god exists, and that is the point being made.

How about rather then intellectually masturbating, try and open up another thread where you offer coherent evidence for the exsistance for a god without appealing to biblical scripture and philosophy.

Neither of which answer the 'how' questions.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 12:24

(Reply to #80) #81

algebe

@Peripatetic: "the basic

@Peripatetic: "the basic concepts in theology"

Tell me one piece of real knowledge from this ridiculous pseudo-science. Just one.

Theology is a vast inverted pyramid of complexity, twisted logic, and supposition narrowing down to a vanishing point of ignorance. Neither you nor anyone else knows anything about god, because there's no evidence for a god outside of your own imagination.

You theists say god is necessary, eternal, non-contingent. I say god is pink, transparent, elastic, and vanilla-flavored. Prove me wrong.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 19:01

(Reply to #81) #82

Kwahu Jakquai

Wow! This fellow is clearly

Wow! This fellow is clearly submerged in his own cognitive dissonance...I would suggest not wasting your efforts Algebe. None of it is sinking in.

Tue, 08/29/2017 - 05:41

(Reply to #82) #83

xenoview

Peripatetic

Peripatetic
Are humans contingent or necessary? Is a necessary being/god contingent upon humans believing it is real? Is religion contingent upon humans believing in it?

You have yet to prove a necessary being/god, all you do is say that there is a necessary being/god. Can you prove your necessary being is real, and not made up by humans?

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 19:07

#84

RedleT

@ Nyarlathotep

Another logical conclusion from something coming from nothing is that science cannot give you any certainty on anything. You hit a ball and it moves. You think you moved it. Maybe nothing moved it, since something can come from nothing. You can apply this reasoning to everything. It's pretty absurd.

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 21:58

(Reply to #84) #85

Nyarlathotep

Dumb Ox - that science cannot

Dumb Ox - that science cannot give you any certainty on anything.

And again, you're about 100 years behind. But I'll leave it to Feynman:

Feynman: Lectures on Physics - Another most interesting change in the ideas and philosophy of science brought about by quantum mechanics is this: it is not possible to predict exactly what will happen in any circumstance. For example, it is possible to arrange an atom which is ready to emit light, and we can measure when it has emitted light by picking up a photon particle, which we shall describe shortly. We cannot, however, predict when it is going to emit the light or, with several atoms, which one is going to. You may say that this is because there are some internal “wheels” which we have not looked at closely enough. No, there are no internal wheels; nature, as we understand it today, behaves in such a way that it is fundamentally impossible to make a precise prediction of exactly what will happen in a given experiment. This is a horrible thing; in fact, philosophers have said before that one of the fundamental requisites of science is that whenever you set up the same conditions, the same thing must happen. This is simply not true, it is not a fundamental condition of science. The fact is that the same thing does not happen, that we can find only an average, statistically, as to what happens. Nevertheless, science has not completely collapsed. Philosophers, incidentally, say a great deal about what is absolutely necessary for science, and it is always, so far as one can see, rather naive, and probably wrong.

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 21:57

#86

mykcob4

Dumb Ox based his whole

Dumb Ox based his whole argument on something cannot come from nothing, then in the same breath asserts that his god always existed. So his god came from nothing or never existed in the first place.
Dumb Ox, you can't have it both ways. You can't say that something cannot come from nothing and not prove fail to prove where your god came from.
Also, you haven't even proved your god yet!
Plus you have embarked on a series of circular arguments with no explanations, no proofs, nothing.

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 23:31

(Reply to #86) #87

Peripatetic

'has always existed' means

'has always existed' means that he has never been brought into existence. Otherwise, he would be contingent not necessary.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 04:59

(Reply to #87) #88

xenoview

First you have to prove a

First you have to prove a necessary being/god exist. Just saying one exist is not enough proof. If a necessary being/god does exist, then you have to determine which god it is that humans worship. Do you think there could be more than one necessary being/god?

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 08:46

(Reply to #88) #89

mykcob4

Oh, bullshit Peripatetic!

Oh, bullshit Peripatetic!
You using the term "contingent" or actually misusing the term is just you trying to move the goal post. You fucking idiots want things both ways. You say that there must be a cause for everything claiming that your god is that cause then in the same breath claim that your god doesn't need a cause. BULL FUCKING SHIT!

The fact is that it has been scientifically proven, peer reviewed, independently tested that something CAN come from nothing. That is a fact!
NO god has ever been proven, peer reviewed to exist, independently verified to exist. That is a fact.
You Peripathetic, Longwinded Moron, and Dumbass Ox are nothing but ignorant trolls. Either you have empirical evidence of your god or not.
You fuckers couldn't be any more intellectually dishonest and hypocritical. You question PROVEN science, and try and push an UNPROVEN god on everyone!

Sun, 08/27/2017 - 23:28

#90

Peripatetic

Although Nothingness can't be

Although Nothingness can't be said to be a cause of Anything at all, i think it's way better to argue that One of two equal sides can't be preponderated by the virtue of itself. it's better to argue from the essence/nature of Beings not that of nothingness.

Mon, 08/28/2017 - 09:07

(Reply to #90) #91

xenoview

Peripatetic

Peripatetic
Can you prove there is a necessary being/god? Can you give something that is testable?

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