Let's get one thing out of the way... Faith is tested and trusted.
Faith is believing in the truth until the truth reveals itself.
Faith is me traveling with peace airline without first testing the accuracy of the pilot and the engine because I know they have always delivered and customer service is satisfactory.
Faith is me eating my mother's meal after receiving serious scolding from her without any any fear of food poisoning.
Faith is me believing all the stories of cyanophyta, algae, thallophyta, bryophtha taught by the Professor without first carrying out my own laboratory experiment to prove if he is right or wrong.
Faith is me believing that Williams Shakespeare wrote Macbeth, Hamlet, Romeo and Juliet without actually witnessing it.
REMEMBER FAITH IS BELIEVE IN THE TRUTH UNTIL THE TRUTH REVEALS ITSELF. IF IT DOESN'T THEN IT IS NOT THE TRUTH OR IT IS NOT FAITH.
Those in nursery school and Montessori needs faith to know that 1+1=2 until they discover it for themselves by bringing together many bottle crowns and start doing the mathematics at home. Or after series of failures.
But this is just one side of the story.
On the other side, how can we verify that 1+1=2? Is it because we were taught in school or because it is generally accepted by all?
By the way who was the first person to postulate that 1+1=2?
Can any atheist here help me out?
Orville and Wilbur Wright believe their own special metal can fly even when it seems impossible for metals to fly. But When all necessary skills and tools were put into work their metal actually flew.
So you see faith is believing in the qualities of that metal until the metal prove itself.
Same principle for the ship.
By faith I believe water plus clay makes mud because I believe my chemistry teacher in high school even if I haven't verified it myself.
Faith without work or logic is dead.
That's why God has not sealed our brains and freewill because He wants us to investigate Him not only by faith but also by Logic. And up till now God is correct and with the way things are He will not be found guilty of all His claims and actions.
if you care about the truth, faith is not enough. In other words faith without works is dead.
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Faith is what you use when you have no evidence to back your claims.
The fallacy you are using is called, an EQUIVOCATION FALLACY.
Equivocation happens when a word, phrase, or sentence is used deliberately to confuse, deceive, or mislead by sounding like it’s saying one thing but actually saying something else.
Your faith is nothing like the trust we have, based on experience and data.
More bullshit from a theist.
@ The Intruder
"Orville and Wilbur Wright believe their own special metal can fly even when it seems impossible for metals to fly. But When all necessary skills and tools were put into work their metal actually flew."
Oh my, you just stepped into my wheelhouse. The Wright brothers did not use any faith, in fact, they studied their predecessors, they rigorously tested everything about flight before attempting to do so. They built and tested their own engine. The built a wind tunnel to verify the aerodynamics, they built and flew kites, and the entire process was one of checking and verifying everything before moving onto the next step.
"That's why God has not sealed our brains and freewill because He wants us to investigate Him not only by faith but also by Logic. And up till now God is correct and with the way things are He will not be found guilty of all His claims and actions."
You seem to know a lot about the qualities of your god. I have a question, why do some innocent children suffer horribly and die from cancer?
@David Killens But the wright brothers already believed their work could result in something that can fly, and then they took action. What the wright brothers did is what Hebrews 11 as a whole described, it gives you examples of heroes of faith, who believed something and took bold actions that were life changing because they looked forward to and had faith in the coming of a better kingdom or what we can call a new society.
l don't believe you are against faith in itself, David Killens, rather l think you are against religious faith in particular. But religious faith is not all terrible, rather such a faith must also be tested by its fruits.
@ The Intruder
For man to fly, it was not faith but a desire to fly, like the birds. This desire goes back thousands of years, as recalled by the famous tale of Icarus. But the Wright brothers did not have faith, their efforts was a continuation of the works of others. They did not invent the internal combustion engine, they just took this and modified it for aviation use. They were aware of the works of Otto Lilienthal, who flew crude gliders. But from Lilienthal they learned the lessons of controllability since Lilienthal lost control, stalled, and fell to the earth to die.
Their work was not "faith" but an understanding that all the pieces were there, they systematically tackled each problem solved them, and flew.
"Faith" is just blind acceptance of anything. Am I against "religious faith"? Yes, because it has zero foundation, just blind acceptance that can lead people to do stupid or bad things. Unfortunately, almost all religious faith is tested by doing something so stupid you die. There are people who killed others via suicide bombs or flew aircraft into building because of their faith.
I do not practice "faith". I look both ways before I cross the street, I check my bank balance to make sure all the numbers are correct, and I will never buy anything from a stranger just because they say "have faith".
@David Killens, you said " "Faith" is just blind acceptance of anything."
this is not the definition of faith. l don't know why you are all insisting on this definition.
Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen
You practice faith every time you call things that are not as though they were. When you say l will be successful in life, even when the conditions and factors around shows otherwise, then you are exercising faith. All you have to do then, is to add works to your faith so as to become successful.
So faith is not blind acceptance of anything. You have simply learnt about faith wrongly, sorry to say.
Man desires to fly but couldn't not fly. They know they can fly, they believe they can fly and sat down their ass to work.
All I see is faith and work in action.
EDIT
YOU: "Wow, you do not know anything about cancer. You could be from the richest family on this planet, with the best health care, yet be struck down by cancer."
And many rich people still survive cancer.
YOU:
"Based on your beliefs, your god is responsible for everything, including the conditions the children were born into.. Why is your god so cruel as to make innocent children suffer?"
Now you are saying God is responsible for all the children on earth. In another words you are indirectly proving He exists. Because you cannot hold a rock responsible for the death of any child.
@ The Intruder
"Now you are saying God is responsible for all the children on earth. In another words you are indirectly proving He exists."
Your statement is built on a a dishonest interpretation. I stated ...
"Based on your beliefs, your god is responsible for everything"
I debate my position as if it was based on your religion.
Ask a Muslim, ask a Roman Catholic, ask a protestant, ask anyone of any religion, they all state that their beliefs are based on faith. So many different positions, all defended by faith. Which is the right one? They can't all be correct. That is because their "faith" is not backed up by evidence or anything tangible, just an acceptance anyone can accept.
You can believe anything based on "faith", it is not the pathway to the truth.
Man up, take ownership of your faith in your god who gives innocent children cancer. Is your god responsible for everything? Yes or no.
@David Killens You do not believe God exists and at the same time you are asking me to prove His duty over the lives of innocent children.
I don't understand you.
You are guilty of the crime called "Faith."
Faith is first believe then work is deployed, this is no blind faith my brother.
Have you proven the existence of your mind like other parts of your body?
Based on your faith, is your god responsible for everything? Yes or no.
god huh!
You are not ready for an answer, @David Killens
@ The Intruder
Based on your faith, is your god responsible for everything? Yes or no.
@David K. Re: The Intruder - "god huh! You are not ready for an answer, @David Killens"
Yeah, Dave, like the man said....
Attachments
Attach Image/Video?:
@ Tin-Man
"god huh! You are not ready for an answer, @David Killens"
But I was prepared for the answer. I am wearing protection. I have a helmet just in case my head explodes, a jockstrap in case a priest comes out of the fiery depths of hell and grabs at my family jewels, and even applied some hemorrhoid cream just in case ......
Additional protection was provided when I stuffed some broken glass into my rectum. If god or some priest gets me, at least they wind up circumcised.
@David Killens First of all, my God is not responsible for the spaghetti I ate this afternoon but He is responsible enough to give me mouth with a nice sets of healthy teeth and tongue so that I can eat anything that pleases me.
Second of all, If God is responsible for the evil in the world, then how come he wants to redeem the world? and why do we pray for the kingdom of God to come and his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven? Come on now, if God actually controlled this world, then everything would be different, but God is not really in charge of this world and there is a better world to come where there would be no more death and sorrow, and this l speak by faith. This faith shall save me if l continue therein, not by works of the law but only faith working through love.
E.O.D!
@ The Intruder, your dishonesty leaves a stench that makes vomit appear pleasant.
According to christian dogma, your god created the entire universe, is incredibly powerful and all-knowing. According to christian dogma there is no higher power than your god.
Understand this, if there is "evil" in this world, your god is responsible for it.
@David Killens you said, "Understand this, if there is "evil" in this world, your god is responsible for it."
Seriously? So if you go and kill someone, "your god is responsible for it"?
Sounds very irresponsible of you to me that you refuse to take responsibility for your evil! I'm just glad the rest of us aren't so stupid or we'd be imprisoning "your god" and not you.
Thanks for trying to school me David, lol. Once again you are guilty of faith.
How come you quickly reached a conclusion that a god is responsible for evil when you don't believe in the existence of that god? You even want me to "understand"............lol
Anyways you are right but unfortunately for you that "god" is also your "god."
Now you can know the difference between "god" and "God."
Thank you.
@The Introller Re: To David K.- "Seriously? So if you go and kill someone, "your god is responsible for it"?"
(Hope you don't mind, Dave. I know you can handle your own, but I couldn't let the little twerp slide on this one.)
Let me see if I understand this correctly. David is the one guy on here who is being patient enough to give you the benefit of the doubt and attempt to have a respectful adult discussion with you. Yet, you choose to reply to him in a demeaning and openly antagonistic manner with zero regards to respect or common courtesy?... *raised eyebrow*... Buddy, you are either pretending to be the most brain-dead fucking imbecile on the planet with barely two brain cells to rub together, OR your reading comprehension skills SUCK ASS and your mommy and daddy failed to teach you proper manners. Which is it? Either way I don't really care, because in my mind you have shown without a doubt you are here only for the purpose of being an annoying little turd. Fine with me, though, because I promise I am a much bigger asshole than you could ever hope to be... *grin*...
@Tin,
Now, now Tin. Quit with all the abstractions. You don't need to be so metaphorical.
For crying out loud, just say what you mean already. Why are you holding back?
@NewSkeptic Re: "Why are you holding back?"
Well, I'm just trying to be a nice guy. It's an annoying little personality flaw of mine... *shrugging shoulders*... Don't worry, though, because I'm trying really hard to break that nasty habit... *chuckle*... Besides, no need for me to bother wasting any of my good material on that guy. After all, it is painfully obvious he wouldn't have the mental capacity to understand it even if I did... *grin*...
@Tin-Man
This is Control Tin-Man, you've been given all clearance to use overwhelming firepower as you see fit. International laws of courtesy have been suspended for the time of your mission.
@Talyyn Re: "This is Control Tin-Man, you've been given all clearance to use overwhelming firepower as you see fit."
Thank you for the clearance, Control. However, the beauty of this mission is that I can leave all my heavy ordnance safely stowed away for use on bigger targets that are more worthy of the expenditure. As it is, with a little pipsqueak like The Introller, I figure a straw and a few soggy spitballs should do the trick rather nicely. Besides, based on observations thus far, that cerebral stud-muffin is doing a fine job of self-destruction all on his own. All I have to do is sit back, push a few buttons, and enjoy the show... *chuckle*...
@ Intruder
Isaiah 45:7 KJV I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So you don't read your bible either?
And yes, according to the bible your god does know everything and thus is responsible for all murders, rapes, abusers etc: viz:
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).
“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).
“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).
“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).
“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).
“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).
“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).
“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).
“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).
“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).
“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).
“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).
“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).
“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).
So please now, fuck off until you have actually read your poisonous book.
Sorry David, I know where you were going but for a simpleton to say "from my reading of the bible" when it is patently obvious that he hasn't read it....well, had to leap in.
@Old man shouts, Do you understand your Bible, and do you reason at all? Or is it your claim that you are not even responsible for your own misunderstanding?
Please explain how I get thrown into hell (according to the Bible), for "murders, rapes, abusers" if "according to (your understanding of) the bible your god does know everything and thus is responsible for all murders, rapes, abusers etc"?
You said, "So please now, fùck off until you have actually read your poisonous book."
Lol! You must think not using one's brain when reading the Bible applies to the instructions that you give too. I wonder how better to show you to rely on the evidence in front of you instead of thinking everyone is brain dead like your are.
Well, watch me not obey you. Its called using one's own brain and data.
@# Intruder
So now your trolling is obvious. I gave you clear and cogent quotes from your bible that refute your assertions.
. You didn't answer.
I never mentioned hell. I do not believe in a religious hell . the rest of your 'answer' is a non sequitur.
You should answer each verse.
@Old man shouts I'm glad my trolling is obvious. It might make you use your brain instead of believing non sequiturs that you create inside your own head and claim is inside the head of others.
Did you not see verses in the Bible that read "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not covet they neighbours goods"? If people take it like you claim they do, or should, would they steal or commit murder?
I advise you become an atheist. Evidence might matter to you instead of crap you create inside your head and chose to believe.
@Intrudes,
"@Old man shouts I'm glad my trolling is obvious. It might make you use your brain instead of believing non sequiturs that you create inside your own head and claim is inside the head of others.
Did you not see verses in the Bible that read "Thou shalt not kill" and "Thou shalt not covet they neighbours goods"? If people take it like you claim they do, or should, would they steal or commit murder?
I advise you become an atheist. Evidence might matter to you instead of crap you create inside your head and chose to believe."
Just breaking in for a moment to ask a simple question.
Are you proud of this post?
Did you hit post by accident? I'm going to assume so because I have FAITH that no one is really that ignorant.
Please tell me it was an accident, that your cat was walking on the keyboard and deleted the coherent part of the post.
Perhaps Mommy came into your room during a particularly vigorous masturbation session and you had to quickly shut your laptop showing Pornhub schoolgirl videos, and posted this mumble jumble in error. (C'mon, I'm giving you credit for masturbating to schoolgirl videos instead of Anime at least.)
C'mon, cop to it. It's a more intelligent answer than that you actually conceived this as a proper response.
Restore my FAITH, PahLLLLLEEEEEAAAASSSSSSEEEEE
@ Intruder
So, not having any answers to the verses in your books that clearly and unequivocally state that your supposed god is responsible for everything including all the "evil" in the world you resort to straw man arguments, non sequiturs and nonsense, including the attempted, but failed, ad hominem.
That is symptomatic of a failed intellect.
If you have an answer to the refutation of your claims which I laid out in detail with all those quotes from your book, then please, enlighten us all.
It seems however you don't have any answers. You haven't read, or even understood your bible at all, but instead have made up some saccharin flavored religion of your own without the naughty bits.
The theist has no pants on.
Muppet.
@Old man shouts Are you some pastor perhaps, who does not appreciate one using the brain inside one's own head? Isn't it ironic that you want to tell me what to think and how to reason and what to believe and what my own position and understanding must be? Despite me telling you you are responsible for your own evil, you still insist on blaming your stupidity on the Bible, and with you basically saying, "Do not trust the crap you fill your head with without checking the evidence that is in front of your eyes"!
I'm going to advise you to ditch the faith in what you believe and consider becoming an atheist and check the evidence in front of you. You might need the Jesus stuff to help your eyes work, but the more you practice disbelieving and checking the evidence, the more you'd likely be able to see that you are the one resorting to "straw man arguments, non sequiturs and nonsense, including ad hominems".
That, after all, is what is meant by substituting your position for that of those you discuss with just so you can have something to argue against. Those smarter than you would tell you to enjoy your one hand clap.
@ Intruder
You said @Sheldon Well, from my understanding of the bible and from what l have observed, this world is not what God wants it to be yet. lt is a fallen world where God does not reign supreme and his will is not done on earth as it is in heaven. ( My bold)
I replied with quotes and reference from the bible that refute your assertion as to the limits on your god's power. .
You then in three replies resort to ad hominem, straw men, mendacious assertions and nothing else.
Either you have not read your bible, do not understand your bible or are just a rather juvenile troll.
The correct and accepted method of discourse is to prove your claim as I have refuted it.
So far you have merely made more unsubstantiated claims. Coupled, as I am now accustomed to, when exposing theists' mendacity, insults, straw men and ad hominems.
To make it easy for you I repeat my refutation below.
"Isaiah 45:7 KJV I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
So you don't read your bible either?
And yes, according to the bible your god does know everything and thus is responsible for all murders, rapes, abusers etc: viz:
“Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please” (Isaiah 46:9-10).
“Who can fathom the Spirit of the LORD, or instruct the LORD as his counselor? Whom did the LORD consult to enlighten him, and who taught him the right way? Who was it that taught him knowledge, or showed him the path of understanding?” (Isaiah 40:13-14).
“Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD” (Psalm 139:4).
“O LORD, you have searched me and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways” (Psalm 139:1-3).
“My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place, when I was woven together in the depths of the earth. Your eyes saw my unformed body; all the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. How precious to me are your thoughts, God! How vast is the sum of them! Were I to count them, they would outnumber the grains of sand—when I awake, I am still with you” (Psalm 139:15-16).
“Can anyone teach knowledge to God, since he judges even the highest?” (Job 21:22).
“He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name. Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit” (Psalm 147:4-5).
“And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever” (1 Chronicles 28:9).
“Do you know how the clouds hang poised, those wonders of him who has perfect knowledge?” (Job 37:16).
“From heaven the LORD looks down and sees all mankind; from his dwelling place he watches all who live on earth—he who forms the hearts of all, who considers everything they do” (Psalm 33:13-15).
“Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!” (Romans 11:33).
“Nothing in all creation is hidden from God’s sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of him to whom we must give account” (Hebrews 4:13).
“Indeed, the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Don’t be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows” (Luke 12:7).
“Whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything” (1 John 3:20).
“Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered” (Matthew 10:29-30).
So please now, fuck off until you have actually read your poisonous book.
@Old man shouts What I can't get is why you can't take responsibility for your own misunderstandings.
Your quotes and references do not state that any God is responsible for the evil that you do. If it did, there'd clearly be no point in throwing your evil ass in jail for what God supposedly did!
Perhaps try reading the entire book so you know what you talk about.
@ The Intruder
Yes, as usual your showing your inability to read and comprehend. You have given no refutation, merely yet another ignorant assertion. Seemingly based on your unsupported opinion not on the texts.
As you are incapable of a debate I suggest you continue playing with your toys in the sandpit.
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