Hello everyone (and monkey, you know who you are lol)
I will try to keep this short and to the point. Given how lazy, ignorant and arrogant some atheists on these forums have shown to be I figured why not start this thread, in an effort to either give them the chance to prove me wrong or simply further strengthen my current view on some of the Atheists here. Keyword so far is SOME, I did not say all. I feel I will need to clarify every single sentence since the majority of atheists here seem to always reply with what they think I meant or wish I meant rather than what I actually said.
Anyway, seeing the plethora of wrong information, misunderstanding, pure hate and “fake news” aka Shelly boy’s failed quora.com source is a perfect example, it got me thinking. If Islam is sooooooo bad and as hateful as the lazy, ignorant and arrogant people here have claimed, then why have all these really bad things never brought up during a professional and educated debate vs Muslim Scholars? While I know for 100% fact that not a single person here has read the Quran, and even if they lie and say they did I know they did NOT understand it, since the way they talk about it clearly proves they did not tie anything they read to the “common sense” element I have talked about neither put their understanding against the “measuring stick” I have also mentioned. Oh, and not to mention they have 0 understanding of hadith and the contexts in which those narrations and verses were said and revealed. They talk all the crap they want citing made up stories then run with them and believe them to be true. Someone on this forum (forgot who it was) lied and said that Atheism promotes critical thinking, well, if that lie is to be true, why isn’t the same “critical thinking” applied to Islam? What makes the average Atheist’s understanding of Islam far better than all the highly educated and qualified scientists and scholars that have debated them? Why don’t those scientists and scholars ever cite the same BS you guys do?
Sorry, I went on a bit of a rant there. Let me clarify and focus on what question of all the above ranting is meant to ask. The point of all the above is to ask 1 simple question
1) If Islam is so bad, why aren’t all these “atrocities” that the lazy, ignorant and arrogant haters here bring up ever brought up by Scientists and scholars in a professional and educated debate against a Muslim Scholar?
Surely, the people debating Muslim scholars are far smarter, more educated and more prepared to debate Islam yet, you never hear them bring up ¼ of the stuff that has been brought up the lazy, ignorant and arrogant Islamic haters. I am going to go out on a limb here and assume there is a justified and smart reason for them not to cite random quora.com and wiki sources in such a professional setting. So, once again, to clarify, my question is simple and straightforward
If Islam is so bad, why aren’t all these “atrocities” that the lazy, ignorant and arrogant haters here bring up ever brought up by Scientists and scholars in a professional and educated debate against a Muslim scholar?
Before any of you run to google and try to find the first made up hater source let me say this. Prior to accepting Islam, I literally looked up and watched 100s of hours worth of debates, articles, scholarly written papers and other opinion and factual pieces talking for and against Islam. So, as much as I encourage as many people to participate in this (hopefully) productive thread/conversation, it would be far more productive if anything you say/post actually has some relevance and sticks to the main question asked. Also, please don’t bring up 1,400 year old made up junk either, this is not a school and I am not here to educate anyone on Islam, so I won’t waste my time addressing the same old crap that everyone talks about and answers can be easily found. So, for the 3rd time, the main and only question that should be addressed is
If Islam is so bad, why aren’t all these “atrocities” that the lazy, ignorant and arrogant haters here bring up ever brought up by Scientists and scholars in a professional and educated debate against a Muslim scholar?
Oh, and let me save you some time, if you want to look up videos and cite people like James white, David wood and Sam Shamoun I would suggest you do 3 things 1) Read the comments section and see what their own people actually say about them and 2) Try to verify their claims prior to coming here and embarrassing yourself 3) Watch their debates with anyone (not only Muslims) and conclude for yourself.
Oh and 1 last time just in case the same atheist that always go off topic and address what they wish I said and meant rather than what was actually said let me repeat the main and only question we should focus on for the 4th and final time
If Islam is so bad, why aren’t all these “atrocities” that the lazy, ignorant and arrogant haters here bring up ever brought up by Scientists and scholars in a professional and educated debate against a Muslim scholar?
Looking forward to everyone’s response. Sorry, it wasn’t as short as I wanted but, hopefully it’s clear enough.
Thanks to all participants in advance
Subscription Note:
Choosing to subscribe to this topic will automatically register you for email notifications for comments and updates on this thread.
Email notifications will be sent out daily by default unless specified otherwise on your account which you can edit by going to your userpage here and clicking on the subscriptions tab.
TL/DR
...If Islam is so good, why aren’t all the altruistic acts that are uniquely Muslim ever brought up by a Muslim scholar in a professional and educated debate against Scientists and scholars?
" If Islam is so bad, why aren’t all these “atrocities” ever brought up by Scientists and scholars in a professional and educated debate against a Muslim Scholar?"
https://youtu.be/uSwJuOPG4FI
If a Muslim "scholar" does not even accept that torture is bad, as for example international law recognizes, then it will be a fruitless exercise attempting to demonstrate the partaking and condoning of harmful actions in Islam.
Is there such a thing as a scholar of superstition? I think we're lending far too much credence to subjective beliefs when we attach words like scholar to people who hold them. Like a scholar of Harry Potter, I mean does such a person's opinion lend any validity to the claims for magic and wizardry in the books?
Did anyone else get a chuckle out of the title?
"False, fabricated and unsubstantiated claims"
.
You are so close to finding the truth "searching for the truth" yet... so far. I get it though, it is highly unlikely you are ready to find the truth, even with all of us trying to help you out with finding the truth, you are still a long ways from being able to hear it.
Everything I learned from theist that visit these boards and argue their side, points to a well crafted wall that makes hearing the truth near impossible.
And I do actually appreciate the debates! They are fun for me and I learn more about how a theist operates and thinks. I learned a while back that it is unlikely anyone that thinks strongly enough of their own religion to come to an atheist board and argue their points, are not going to have their minds changed or have "the wall" taken down, no matter how much reasoning, fact or logic is used.
People do not change their faiths by arguing about it with strangers on the internet, they need unfortunately, far to often; a major tragedy in their lives to bust through that wall religion puts up that does not allow theist to see what is plain to everyone that is not a theist.
Muslim dogma says that atheists will be tortured in the fire of hell.
Considering that Muslim "scholars" believe this, why would it be surprising if there are few "professional and educated debates" with the likes of Muhammad and Islamic State about how Islam is atrocious and hateful, and about how a person is not themselves "hateful" if they say that an ideology that promotes torture is hateful?
@sft: "why have all these really bad things never brought up during a professional and educated debate vs Muslim Scholars?"
WOW! YOU REALLY COME UP WITH SOME IGNORANT COMMENTS.
Here we go.... A Muslim feeling threatened and so he engages in "Taqiyyah." Lying to the infidel in the name of Allah. You can tell the infidel anything to support your unyielding faith in Allah. Lie to them, cheat them, do not be friends with them and never trust them. Ha ha ha .... DAMN YOU SAY STUPID SHT.
Islam is a religion of lies... Allah is the great deceiver.
And they cheated/deceived and God cheated/deceived, and God (is) the best (of) the cheaters/deceivers افامنوا مكر الله فلايامن مكر الله الا القوم الخاسرون
And when those who disbelieved deceive/scheme at you to affix/affirm you, or kill you, or bring you out, and they scheme/deceive , and God deceives/schemes and God (is) best (of) the deceivers/schemers. واذ يمكر بك الذين كفروا ليثبتوك او يقتلوك او يخرجوك ويمكرون ويمكر الله والله خير الماكرين
And if We made the people taste/experience mercy from after calamity/disastrous distress touched them, then for them (is) cheatery/deceit/schemes in Our verses/evidences . Say: "God (is) quicker/faster (in) cunning/scheming , that Our messengers write what you cheat/ deceive/scheme." واذا اذقنا الناس رحمة من بعد ضراء مستهم اذا لهم مكر في اياتنا قل الله اسرع مكرا ان رسلنا يكتبون ماتمكرون
nd those from before them had cheated/deceived/schemed, so to God (is) all the cheatery/deceit/scheme. He knows what every self gains/acquires , and the disbelievers will know to whom (is) the house's/home's end/turn (result). وقد مكر الذين من قبلهم فلله المكر جميعا يعلم ماتكسب كل نفس وسيعلم الكفار لمن عقبى الدار
1) If Islam is so bad, why aren’t all these “atrocities” that the lazy, ignorant and arrogant haters here bring up ever brought up by Scientists and scholars in a professional and educated debate against a Muslim Scholar?
9th century Persian scholar Ibn al-Rawandi (827–911 CE) started out as a Mu'tazilite Muslim, but later he repudiated Islam and revealed religion in general, rejecting the authority of any scriptural or revealed religion, pointing out specific Muslim traditions and trying to show that they are laughable.
Persian polymath Muhammad ibn Zakariya al-Razi (854–925 CE) is said to have been heavily critical of the institution of prophethood, the belief in miracles and the practice obedience to religious authorities as against reason.
Syrian poet Al-Maʿarri
During the late 19th and early 20th century, the new methods of Higher criticism were applied to the Qu'ran, claiming that it had a non-divine origin. Ignác Goldziher and Henry Corbin wrote about the influence of Zoroastrianism, and others wrote on the influence of Judaism, Christianity and Sabianism.[1]
Voltaire wrote an opinion on the brutality of Muhammad and that his following stems from superstition and lack of enlightenment.
John Quincy Adams, sixth President of the United States (1825–1829) wrote: "In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth.[3][citation needed]
Alexis de Tocqueville, French political thinker and historian, said about Islam: "I studied the Kuran a great deal ... I came away from that study with the conviction that by and large there have been few religions in the world as deadly to men as that of Muhammed."[3]
Manuel II Palaiologos, Byzantine Emperor, wrote in 1391 "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached".[4]
Winston Churchill, the British Prime Minister through most of World War II, criticized what he alleged to be of the effects Islam had on its believers. In his 1899 book The River War he attributed to Muslims their fanatical frenzy combined with fatalistic apathy, enslavement of women, and militant prozelityzing.[5]
Muslims
Tarek Fatah is Muslim who advocates liberalism within the religion
Criticism is a tool employed by some Muslim reformers seeking to improve the religion.
Ibrahim Al-Buleihi is a Saudi liberal writer, thinker and philosopher who is currently a member of the Saudi Shura Council.
Irshad Manji (born 1968), a Ugandan-Canadian of Egyptian and Gujarati descent, is a journalist, Quranist Muslim, and advocate of a "reformist" interpretation of Islam.[6]
Tarek Fatah (born 1949) is a Pakistani-Canadian writer and broadcaster, as well as a secular, progressive, and liberal activist.
Necla Kelek (born 1957) is a Turkish-German feminist and social scientist.
Raheel Raza (born 1949/1950) is a Pakistani-Canadian moderate Muslim critical of "Islamic extremism" and of what she has called "inequality toward Muslim women".[7]
Zuhdi Jasser, medical doctor and former Lieutenant Commander in the United States Navy, president and founder of American Islamic Forum for Democracy.[8][9]
Stephen Suleyman Schwartz (born 1948) is an American Sufi convert, journalist, columnist, and author. His background is on the traditional political left. He is a critic of Islamic Fundamentalism, especially the Wahhabi sect of Sunni Islam.
Khalid Duran (1939–2010), born in Spain to Hispano-Moroccan Muslim parents, worked in many countries, was a specialist in the history, sociology and politics of the Islamic world, and coined the term "Islamofascism" to describe the push by some Islamist clerics to "impose religious orthodoxy on the state and the citizenry".[10]
Mohammad Tawhidi Iraqi origin and a strong critic of Islamism in non-Muslim countries and a supporter of Jewish settlements in Palestine and West Bank [11]
Tufail Ahmad British journalist and political commentator of Indian origin and MEMRI reporter
Converts to other religions
Magdi Allam has criticised Islam since his conversion to Catholicism
Nonie Darwish, an Egyptian-American convert to Protestant Christianity who founded the pro-Israel web site Arabs for Israel and stated that "Islam is more than a religion, it is a totalitarian state".[17] She is also the author of Now They Call Me Infidel: Why I Renounced Jihad for America, Israel, and the War on Terror.
Magdi Allam, an outspoken Egyptian-born Italian journalist who describes Islam as intrinsically violent and characterised by “hate and intolerance”.[18] He converted to Catholicism and was baptised by Pope Benedict XVI during an Easter Vigil service on March 23, 2008.
Zachariah Anani, a Baptist Christian and a former Sunni Muslim Lebanese militia fighter. Anani said that Islamic doctrine teaches nothing less than the "ambushing, seizing and slaying" of non-believers, especially Jews and Christians.[19]
Anwar Shaikh (1928–2006) was a Pakistani-British author who converted to Hinduism and wrote several books critical of Islam.[20]
Sabatina James (born 1982) is a Pakistani-Austrian author and convert to Roman Catholic Christianity who was meant to undergo an arranged marriage with her cousin but escaped and started a new life.
Walid Shoebat, a convert to Christianity and a former member of the Palestine Liberation Organisation who took part in terrorist attacks against Israeli targets.[21] He stated that "Secular dogma like Nazism is less dangerous than Islamofascism that we see today ... because Islamofascism has a religious twist to it; it says 'God the Almighty ordered you to do this.' It is trying to grow itself in fifty-five Muslim states. So potentially, you could have a success rate of several Nazi Germanys, if these people get their way."[22]
Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of an Hamas founder, a former Israeli spy, and a convert to Christianity. He has written Son of Hamas: A Gripping Account of Terror, Betrayal, Political Intrigue, and Unthinkable Choices.
Majed el-Shafie is an Egyptian-Canadian convert to Christianity who was tortured and condemned to death for apostasy in his fatherland. He is the president and founder of One Free World International (OFWI), a human rights organization.
Ali Sina, strong critic of Islam, which he left, and the founder of Faith Freedom International, which he describes as a grassroots movement of ex-Muslims.
ex-Muslims.
Ex-Muslim irreligionists
Writer Salman Rushdie, a former Muslim, wrote The Satanic Verses
Ayaan Hirsi Ali (born 1969), Somali-born Dutch-American writer and politician. She has focused on the rights of Muslim women, saying that "they aspire to live by their faith as best they can, but their faith robs them of their rights."[23]
Salman Rushdie (born 1947), Indian-British novelist and essayist. His fourth novel, The Satanic Verses (1988), was the centre of a major controversy.
Taslima Nasrin, Bengali/Bangladeshi ex-physician turned feminist author. She is an atheist and a severe critic of Islam and of religion in general who describes herself as a secular humanist. [24][25]
Nyamko Sabuni, Burundian-Swedish atheist, served as the Minister of Integration and Gender Equality (Sweden, 2006–2013) and advocated to ban the veil, as well as establish compulsory gynecological examinations for schoolgirls to guard against female genital mutilation, stating, "I will never accept that women and girls are oppressed in the name of religion", and declaring it is not her intent to reform Islam but only to denounce "unacceptable" practices. She has received death threats, requiring 24-hour police protection, for her views.[26]
Irfan Khawaja, professor of philosophy,[27] former head of the Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society (acronymized as "ISIS" but not to be confused with the terrorist organization ISIS).[28]
Maryam Namazie, Iranian-born human rights activist, Communist, atheist, the leader of the Council of Ex-Muslims of Britain, and a Central Committee member of the Worker-communist Party of Iran, wishing the overthrow of the current Iranian regime.[29]
Ibn Warraq, secularist British author born in India and raised in Pakistan, intellectual, scholar and founder of the Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society and a senior research fellow at the Center for Inquiry[30][31][32] specializing in Qur'anic criticism.[33][34]
Wafa Sultan, Syrian-American psychiatrist who has pointed out that the Muhammad said: "I was ordered to fight the people until they believe in Allah and his Messenger." Sultan has called on Islamic teachers to review their writings and teachings and remove every call to fight people who do not believe as Muslims.[35] Dr. Sultan is now in hiding, fearing for her life and the safety of her family after appearing on the al-Jazeera TV show.[36]
Turan Dursun (1934–4 September 1990), Turkish scholar and writer. He worked as a Shi'a cleric before becoming an atheist during his study of the history of monotheistic religions. Dursun was assassinated outside his home in Istanbul.
Yahya Hassan (born 1995), Danish poet of Palestinian background who has attracted attention and stirred debate about Islam's place in Denmark based on poetry he wrote which was critical of Islam.
Ehsan Jami (born 1985), Iranian-Dutch socialist politician.
Fariborz Shamshiri, one of the authors of the Rotten Gods website and an Iranian blogger.
Christians
Christians of Mideastern background
See also: Christianity in the Middle East
Robert Spencer, Melkite Catholic author who has written on Islamic terrorism and jihad
This subsection does not include converts to Christianity from Islam, who are instead listed in the subsection "Former Muslims". There is a large diaspora of Middle Eastern Christians in the West, some of whom have fled persecution in their homelands. In fact, most Middle Easterners in the United States come from Christian families.[37] Most belong to specific ethnoreligious—rather than simply religious—groups, as religion and ethnicity are largely intertwined in the Middle East.
Robert Spencer (born 1962, a Melkite), American author and blogger best known for his criticism of Islam and research into Islamic terrorism and jihad.
Brigitte Gabriel (born 1964, a Maronite Catholic), survivor of the sectarian Civil War in Lebanon (1975–1990), lived in Israel some time before moving to the United States, where she is an author, activist, and journalist. Gabriel founded the American Congress for Truth and ACT! for America.
Nakoula Basseley Nakoula (born 1957, Copt) is an Egyptian-born US resident best known as a key figure in the production of the Innocence of Muslims,[38] an anti-Islamic video which was blamed by the Obama Administration for the 2012 Benghazi attack, an accusation that has been disputed by some and termed deliberately deceitful by others.[39][40]
Zakaria Botros (born 1934 a Copt), Egyptian priest who has worked in Australia and is best known for his critiques of the Qur'an and other books of Islam. Al-Qaeda has put a $60 million bounty on his head.[41][42][43]
Raymond Ibrahim (born 1973, a Copt), born in the United States to Egyptian immigrants, is an American research librarian, translator, author, and columnist. His focus is Arabic history and language,[44] and current events.
Walid Shoebat An ex-Muslim, former PLO terrorist, and a Christian Zionist.[45][46]
Christians of non-Mideastern background
Baptist minister Jerry Falwell criticised Muhammad
Pat Robertson, expresses the view that "Islam wants to take over the world and is not a religion of peace", and that radical Muslims are "satanic", and that Osama Bin Laden was a "true follower of Muhammad".[47]
Jerry Falwell, another American conservative Baptist minister, characterized Muhammad as being a 'terrorist'.[48]
Franklin Graham, described Islam as an 'evil and wicked religion' and suggested that those who believed Islam to be "wonderful" should "go and live under the Taliban somewhere".[49]
R. Albert Mohler, Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, who described the Islamic theology as false and destructive and believes that Muslims are motivated by demonic power.[50]
Brigitte Bardot (born 1934), French former actress, singer, and fashion model, who later became an animal rights activist. During the 1990s, she generated controversy by criticising immigration and Islam in France, and has been fined five times for inciting racial hatred.
Pim Fortuyn (1948–2002), Roman Catholic, was a Dutch politician, sociologist, and founder of the Pim Fortuyn List party who provoked controversy with his stated views about multiculturalism, immigration, and Islam.
Ann Coulter (born 1961), American conservative social and political commentator, writer, syndicated columnist, and lawyer.
Steven Emerson, American journalist, author, and pundit on national security, terrorism, and Islamic extremism.
Frank Gaffney, founder and president of the Center for Security Policy, columnist at The Washington Times, Big Peace, and Townhall, and radio host on Secure Freedom Radio.
Srđa Trifković (born 1954), Serbian-American writer on international affairs and foreign affairs editor for the paleoconservative magazine Chronicles.
Bruce Bawer (born 1956), American writer who has been a resident of Norway since 1999. He is a literary, film, and cultural critic and poet who has also written about gay rights, Christianity, and Islam.
Kathy Shaidle (born 1964), Roman Catholic, is a Canadian author, columnist, poet and blogger.
Terry Jones (born 1951), pastor of Dove World Outreach Center, a small nondenominational Christian church. He first gained public attention in 2010 for his plan to burn Qur'ans on the ninth anniversary of the September 11 attacks.
Tommy Robinson, founded and led the English Defence League.
Anders Behring Breivik (born 1979), Norwegian perpetrator of the 2011 Norway attacks, sought to emulate the terrorist techniques of al-Qaeda[51] and has confessed that a motive for the crime was his intent to popularise his extensive manifesto, which deals with an array of social, political, and historical issues, partly written by him and partly cited from other authors. He has been emphatic in his description of himself as a "cultural Christian",[52][53] albeit strongly secular and hardly a believer.[52][53][54]
Zionists and observant Jews
Pamela Geller is a Jewish writer and critic of Islam
Pamela Geller (born 1958), American conservative author, blogger, commentator, and political activist.[55][56] She is Jewish and has described herself as "a proud, fierce Zionist".[57] Her blog is Atlas Shrugs, the title of which is eponymous with an Ayn Rand novel.[55][58] She is a co-founder of SIOA with Robert Spencer, along with whom she is one of the best-known critics of Islam in the United States today.
Daniel Pipes (born 1949), son of Jewish immigrants from Nazi-occupied Poland, is an American historian, writer, and political commentator. He is the president of the Middle East Forum.
Bat Ye'or (born 1933), Egyptian-British writer and political commentator. She is from a Sephardi family, whom she was displaced with by the Suez War of 1956. Bat Ye'or has authored a fair number of works on the subject and coined the political neologism "Eurabia".
David Horowitz, American writer and policy advocate, founder and current president of the David Horowitz Freedom Center, founder of Students for Academic Freedom.[59][60]
Geert Wilders, Dutch politician and non-Jewish Zionist of agnostic views, wrote the short film Fitna and has campaigned to ban the Qu'ran in the Netherlands because it conflicts with the Dutch laws and calls for violence in general.[61]
Benny Morris, Israeli historian who views the Israel-Palestinian conflict as a facet of a global clash of civilizations between Islamic fundamentalism and the Western World, saying that "There is a deep problem in Islam. It's a world whose values are different. A world in which human life doesn't have the same value as it does in the West, in which freedom, democracy, openness and creativity are alien."[62]
Phyllis Chesler (born 1940), American writer, psychotherapist, and professor emerita of psychology and women's studies. In more recent years, Chesler has written several works on such subjects as antisemitism, Islam, and honour killings. Also, she has discussed the failure of organised Western feminism to address Islamic oppression of women due to the former's alliance with leftist currents.
David Yerushalmi, Orthodox Jew, is an American lawyer and a political activist who has been called the driving law behind the anti-sharia movement in his country.[63]
Debbie Schlussel (born 1969), Orthodox Jew of Polish pedigree, is an American-born attorney, film critic, conservative political commentator, and a blogger.
Henryk Broder (born 1946), Polish-German journalist, author, and TV personality.
Members of Indian religions, including Buddhism
Indian religions, also known as the Dharmic religions, include Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, and Sikhism. This subsection does not include converts from Islam, who are instead listed in the subsection "Former Muslims". See also the List of converts to Hinduism from Islam.
V. S. Naipaul (born 1932), Nobel prize-winning, Trinidadian-born British novelist of Hindu heritage, who claims that Islam has had a "calamitous effect on converted peoples", destroying their ancestral culture and history.[64]
Ole Nydahl (born 1941), also known as Lama Ole, is a Danish Lama and a convert to the Karma Kagyu school of Tibetan Buddhism.
Ashin Wirathu (born 1968), Burmese Buddhist monk, and the spiritual leader of the anti-Islamic movement in Burma.
Sita Ram Goel (1921–2003), Indian activist, writer, and publisher who was critical of both Muslim and Christian influence over India. He had Marxist leanings during the 1940s but later became an outspoken anti-communist. A one-time atheist, he became an observant Hindu and in his latter career adhered to Hindu nationalism.
Ram Swarup (1920–1998), independent Hindu thinker and prolific author. His works took a critical stance against Christianity, Islam and Communism.
Nirad C. Chaudhuri (1897–1999), British writer and man of letters born in Kishoreganj, then part of Bengal in British India. He was sympathetic to the right-wing Hindu nationalist movement.
Arvind Ghosh, Indian-born American scholar, writer, and publisher of Hindu affiliation and Bengali origins.
Western irreligionists
Atheist comedian Pat Condell criticises Islam in his YouTube videos
For irreligious former Muslims, see the above subsection "Former Muslims".
Theo van Gogh (1957–2004), relative of the world-famous painter Vincent van Gogh, was a Dutch film director who collaborated with Ayaan Hirsi Ali to produce the short film Submission (2004) and was assassinated the same year by Mohammed Bouyeri, a Moroccan-Dutch Muslim.
Michel Onfray, French philosopher and atheist. Onfray attacks Islam and other monotheistic religions, speaking of "Muslim fascism" that has risen with the Islamic Revolution in Iran, and considers Islamic teachings to be "structurally archaic".[65]
Douglas Murray, British neoconservative writer and commentator.
Oriana Fallaci, Italian journalist and novelist, wrote three short books after the events of September 11, 2001, advancing the argument that the "Western world is in danger of being engulfed by radical Islam".[66]
Christopher Hitchens, British-American author and journalist.
Sam Harris, in The End of Faith, argues that Muslim extremism is simply a consequence of taking the Qur'an literally, and is skeptical that moderate Islam is possible.[67]
Richard Dawkins, biologist, author, public intellectual.[68]
Koenraad Elst (born 1959), Belgian orientalist and Indologist known primarily for his writings in support for the Out of India linguistic theory. He was born to Flemish Catholic parent but[69] is an adherent of secular humanism, which may or may not be considered a religion.
Jennifer McCreight (born 1987), American blogger, atheist, sceptic, and feminist who devised the 2010 Boobquake event in response to news reports that Iran's Hojatoleslam Kazem Seddiqi had blamed women who dress immodestly for causing earthquakes.
Pat Condell, comedian and YouTube video blogger, who records videos about Islam and its alleged harmful effects particularly on British society.[70]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_critics_of_Islam
Or watch a video if you can't read...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rh34Xsq7D_A
Hitchslaps against Islam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMraxhd9Z9Q
Islam in Europe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyjamZvjuUQ
Should Americans Fear Islam - Debate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyjamZvjuUQ
All these replies and still 0 answers to the main question. Let me try repeating it for a 5th time and see what happens.
If Islam is so bad, why aren’t all these “atrocities” that the lazy, ignorant and arrogant haters here bring up ever brought up by Scientists and scholars in a professional and educated debate against a Muslim scholar?
@ cog,
It seems you don’t know what DEBATE means since everything you copy pasted talks about writers and critics and even a comedian. Good job, bro
To everyone that posted. Thank you for only proving my point even further. Hopefully, someone will eventually come along and actually answer the question that has been repeated 5 times at this point.
@Searching for truth you have been satisfactorily answered.
Can you tell us if there is any act so atrocious that it is universally "bad"? Because in Islam, even torture, killing, and lying are considered acceptable. It seems that the only act that Islam regards as "atrocious" is disbelief in Allah, because even lying by claiming to disbelieve in Allah is permitted.
If this is so, how can you claim to be objectively moral? And if there are no universally "atrocious" acts, then why are you asking us to prove that professional and educated Scientists and scholars have ever up brought up Islam's atrocities in a debate with a Muslim "scholar"?
Ultimately, the fact is, if a person says that Islam is atrocious, you will say they are not professional and educated.
And if Islamic dogma is true, if a person was to try and engage Allah in a professional and educated debate about Islam's atrocities, Allah would just torture them.
"Let me try repeating it for a 5th time and see what happens. If Islam is so bad, why aren’t all these “atrocities” ever brought up by Scientists and scholars in a professional and educated debate against a Muslim scholar?
http://www.atheistrepublic.com/forums/debate-room/false-fabricated-unsub...
Wrong again - You want a debate with a Mullah so entrenched in his or her ----- oops! Sorry about that! No frigging women allowed, So entrenched in belief as to sound like you? What's the point. It would be like arguing religion with the Fred Phelps
@LogicForTW
“even with all of us trying to help you out with finding the truth,” Well, a great start would be answer to the question that has been asked 5 times at this point.
“Everything I learned from theist that visit these boards and argue their side” I can’t speak for all theists but, where is the argument in my post/question? I asked a simple question, no one is answering. Hard to help someone when you ignore their request for information that could help them.
“I learned a while back that it is unlikely anyone that thinks strongly enough of their own religion to come to an atheist board and argue their points, are not going to have their minds changed or have "the wall" taken down, no matter how much reasoning, fact or logic is used.” Well, since no answer has been provided to the question, why would “the wall” come down? Try answering the question and let’s see what happens.
“People do not change their faiths by arguing about it with strangers on the internet” I am not arguing, just looking for a different point of view.
Oh shit! Can you actually confirm whether or not you believe that people who have a different view to you should be tortured, as Islamic dogma says?
@Searching for truth
So your question is:
Maybe it has not been answered because you say: "lazy, ignorant, arrogant haters" (you are saying we are lazy, ignorant and arrogant haters,) and then ask us to do your work for you by finding a debate between "professional and educated" scientist and scholar against a Muslim Scholar.
So, insult all of us, then tell us to look up debates for you, that you can easily by your own opinion shoot down if we even did bother to do so. That looks more like flame bait and an attack on most all atheist regulars here then a genuine question, which could be more along the lines of: hey you guys: do you know of any good professional debates between a scientist and a muslim scholar that explores topics that are frequently brought up here?
Of which I would respond:
Sure, No problem, here: I did a 2 second google search for you, you should be able to find relevant links from there.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS740US740&ei=eXlbW9uhLoOHjw...
You stated in your original post of this thread:
That looks an awful lot like an argument to me, "prove me wrong or further strengthen my current view"
Answered the question, what happens now? (I am not holding my breath for your wall to come down.)
Looks an awful like arguing to me... if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...
If you were just looking for a different point of view, I imagine there would be a lot less attacking and defensiveness on your part.
@Searching for truth
I did read your post, but replied in a way that was basically a trap. I do not have to read your koran in depth, I just study those who profess to follow that document.
You state that you are a follower of those dogma, one of love, peace, humility,and forbearance. But the content of your original post says it all, and actually demolishes your argument. Your post has hate and anger sprinkled liberally throughout it.
You claim to follow the loving and peaceful interpretation of the koran, yet based on your posts you are one bad week away from strapping on a suicide vest.
First, you don't have to be a scientist or a scholar to debate atrocities,, whether it is in the koran, the bible, or any literary work. Then,when people don't agree with the koran, you resort to ad hominem attacks. Lastly, even if it is not brought up by these people, would the purported atrocities disappear?
All these replies and still 0 answers
https://youtu.be/uSwJuOPG4FI
And I've answered twice before, same old lying theists who ask questions then ignore the answers and pretend they haven't had them. How long before you deny this answers the question, without actually explaining why obviously.
"Objective Morality" = Torture <> Total Hate
This is the ---- (FINGERS IN EARS) "La la la la la la la la la la - I can't hear you" Fallacy.
I have not seen it used since the third grade but there it is big as life.
To be fair in terms of the ability to debate that he's demonstrated on here so far, he's actually pushing the outside of the envelope, bless him.
So apparently
Searching for truth
hasn't read it.I pointed this out weeks ago in fairness. Even if he did read it, does anyone believe he could muster a shred of objective reasoning? I'm reminded of Breezy's "the bible condemns slavery" propaganda campaign. In the end you just had to laugh, and pity anyone that deluded.
I can't begin to imagine what it must be like to have to filter every aspect of reality through a single belief that they are never able to doubt, let alone challenge objectively. I have heard it asked many times, but have never heard an honest answer from any theists or religious apologist, but what would make them disbelieve the claim a deity exists? Sadly the significance of their belief being unfalsifiable doesn't seem to register with theists.
I set the same standard for belief in deities as all else, that sufficient objective evidence be demonstrated to support the claim. So far no one has been able to demonstrate any. Most seem unable to understand what objective even means when the questions is asked.
@Searching for reaffirmed bias
For a hypothesis to be legitimate, it should be clear, precise, and falsifiable. Your failure is entirely of your own creation. I would suggest that you do not determine what is true based purely on what you wish to be true.
Search for Truth needs to admit that he is really an atheist who is having us on. No one but Cog's alter ego can be this nuts.
@Sapporo
“I would suggest that you do not determine what is true based purely on what you wish to be true.” I did not determine anything to be true, I simply asked a question that no one has answered yet. I am not replying to any questions asked or anything else posted until I get an answer. Given the argumentative and reactive nature of everyone that has posted so far, I thought at least 1 person would have been able to provide an answer. Does the answer actually scare people that much that no one is even willing to take a shot? My initial post was copiously clear in what I was asking, not a single reply has yet to address. Typical atheist moves, bounce around the main question, answer my question with more questions to simply muddy the waters then reach you own unjustified conclusion to whatever the heck you guys are even talking about. Why is answering this question so hard? Even the monkey’s lazy attempt at copy paste was miserable as it did not even come close to addressing the question.
Attempt number 6
If Islam is so bad, why aren’t all these “atrocities” that the lazy, ignorant and arrogant haters here bring up ever brought up by Scientists and scholars in a professional and educated debate against a Muslim scholar?
"I simply asked a question that no one has answered yet. "
Liar, 3 times already, now 4.
https://youtu.be/uSwJuOPG4FI
Lawrence Krauss vs Hamza Tzortzis. So let we explain: Lawrence Krauss in a scientist, a physicist and Hamza Tzortzis is a muslim apologist. They are... discussing i guess ? (did not view the video itself, it is 23:37 pm), so it answers the OP
If @Searching for truth could prove the False, fabricated and unsubstantiated claims for Islam, by his logic, we can assume he would have done so.
He has remained silent, which tells us all we already knew. By his own admission, he hasn't even read the qur'an, and yet acts like he is some Muslim "scholar".
Pages