"Gawwd gave you free will, that's why there's evil!"

63 posts / 0 new
Last post
science's picture
How ridiculous!! How did the

How ridiculous!! How did the poor people starving to death, and dying of rampant disease in Somalia, Biafra, Bangladesh, Sierra Leone, etc. "rebel against God," especially the children!!!? The infants are "going to heaven?" Pardon me, but they would have been better off having had a chance to live their lives, just like you have, rather than have had to die horrible deaths before they even got started, and then had the "reward" of "going to heaven." If that's the case, then the theists would rather, or can't wait, to die!! Somehow, I think you theists would pass on that given the choice!! If God created perfection ( not by a LONG SHOT) then why are humans, which God created, NOT PERFECT? He "created them perfect, correct? So how is it possible for them to do, or think, any wrong? "Free will" you say? But they are PERFECT, RIGHT? So they should only have GODS' will, right? This is the preposturous excuse theists give for God allowing terrible things, despite having created everything "perfect." ( by the way, if God creates humans perfect, why are there babies born with horrendous birth defects, and diseases...did THEY sin, or "REBEL" against God? Did the parents? Why did God take it out on babies? So whatever is good, God created, but anything bad, God had nothing to do with...the almighty, who can do anything, and create any miracle, gets overpowered!! There are plenty of good people who DON'T believe, as is their choice...are they to be condemmed to damnation for eternity...that isn't a very loving God you have there!! So, HE is going to come back and "right the wrongs?" Keep waitin, pal!!! It never ceases to amaze me that the theist dosent' realize, or dosen't WANT to realize how ridiculous these statements are...LISTEN TO YOURSELVES!!! Please, come to your senses, OR God MAY rebel against YOU!!! ( OOOOH,SCARY!!!) By the way, " acts of God" (that humans have NOTHING TO DO WITH) have killed MANY, MANY more people since the begining of time than any human atrocity you can think of. When God wants to kill, for whatever his reason, ( "thou shalt not kill") he has allowed tens, and hundreds of thousands of people to be slaughtered with just ONE EVENT!!! I guess ALL those innocent people must have deserved to die in Gods eyes...or He would have "saved" them!!

science's picture
Update!!! God has done it

Update!!! God has done it again!!! In one of his "acts" of anger... earthquake in Nepal...death toll is only about 2200 now...it is climbing everyday!! I guess those poor people sinned , or somehow disobeyed God...so, by the thinking of some of the theists on this website...they must have deserved what they got...how utterly STUPID!!!

science's picture
Another update!! Death toll

Another update!! Death toll in Nepal now up to 3700 and counting...OH GOD, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE!!!

science's picture
Another update!!! Death toll

Another update!!! Death toll in Nepal up to 4400... 1.4 MILLION PEOPLE NEED FOOD!!! So let me ask the theists out there... who's FREE WILL was it that did this??? wAS THIS CAUSED BY HUMANS, TOO?? Was it that the ENTIRE country sinned, and got God mad?? Or, did God have NOTHING TO DO wioth this...even though this is an "Act of God" that humans had nothing to do with...or will the theists think of some appropriate excuse for NOT holding God responsible, even though he is the allmighty, the be all, end all, of the earth, creator of all things, and the universe, that can DO ANYTHING!!! Why dosen't God show His presence in a tragedy like this when there are MILLIONS of people involved, ( not asking for too much...only His presence for the BIG ONES!!) and HELP these poor people...so we can SEE FOR OURSELVES that the almighty DOES exist?! Hate to break it to you, but you'll NEVER see ANY DEVINE PRESENCE OF ANY KIND!! Like I mentioned in a previous post..."acts of God" like this have killed more people in His anger, than ANY OTHER HUMAN ATROCITY since the begining of time...yet no all loving God has ever shown it's presence... P.S: I thought God created a "perfect" world...so why the earthquakes? Or, was that the Devil? OOPS...God was overpowered again!!

science's picture
Current update!!! Death toll

Current update!!! Death toll in Nepal up to 6200...but it has been reported that the hospitals are holding up pretty well, and there has so far been no spread of disease. Typical theist response to this......THANK GOD!!!

science's picture
By the way...what about GODS'

By the way...what about GODS' DEVINE PLAN? Thats also nonsense that you hear for justifying terrible things..."well, God has a plan...its all in HIS plan." He's got SOME F-----G BLUEPRINT, let me tell you!! So, God created all good, anything bad was done by humans, who are supposed to be perfect because God created them, but somehow are not, but if something comes good from the bad, then surely God intervened...OH MY GOODNESS ( almost said God,haha) I know I am repetetive with this, but COMEON!! I just can't believe that peoeple can be sooooo gullible, blind, and ignorant!!

CyberLN's picture
So, I got cancer because I

So, I got cancer because I identify as atheist?

Ellie Harris's picture
Hello ilovequestions. Now for

Hello ilovequestions. Now for the sake of us having a decent debate I need to know which god you are saying humankind rebelled against and sends fetuses to heaven?

Ilovequestions's picture


The God of the Bible :)

Ellie Harris's picture
Then again your bible states

Then again your bible states that god judges. So what could billions of fetuses and infants have chosen to do, when they lack the very capability of choosing, that your god judges it appropriate to either punish them or not lift a finger to help?

Mitch's picture
Free will was given to us so

Free will was given to us so that we might choose to love god. Man's ills are as a result of his inherit sinfulness, or collusion with the devil (which he would have permitted into his house by being negligent in his duties to his faith).

Ergo, god is merciful and loving, and completely absolved of any responsibility to your pain. He's also your only chance for ever feeling any relief from said pain.

See how god makes himself everything. Your reasoning was doomed from the start.

Or perhaps not. Maybe the discussion offered you a chance to do what you love - to reason - and also to allow the faithful to embrace their belief anew, just as they love to do. We all go home satisfied, and none of us any more convinced either direction.

Ellie Harris's picture
Well let's just say your

Well let's just say your referring to the xtian god. According to Psalms, the 1st & 2nd Kings chapters of your bibles god knows the hearts of all born of mankind and judges, I repeat, judges them. So you're telling me that there is some action or sins that prenatal beings committed that were collusion with the devil and thus were rewarded by this merciful god with horrific deaths? Or are you saying that to mercy is creating without responsibility unless what you create obeys you in every way?

Mitch's picture
I trust the merciful

I trust the merciful judgement of the one, true god our lord, and can't presume to know his holy designs.

See how it's enough for me to defer to god in every conceivable scenario? I just resubmit to the power of god, and focus on him, as I do in all times of uncertainty. Actually, as I could do most of the time anyway.

You're convincing to me, personally. But then, you're preaching to the choir... so to speak. : )

Ellie Harris's picture
"I can't presume to know his

"I can't presume to know his holy designs"-
Then you by saying anything about sin, god's character, actions, or god's power you are pretending to know that which you cannot possibly know. End of discussion unless you intend to tell me more of what you're pretending to know about god...

Mitch's picture
I'd counter that I know some

I'd counter that I know some of what god expects of me, through that which is provided in the bible. There's some provision for knowing what is sinful, but more importantly, is the knowledge that we - as people - are sinful, no matter what. So because god is infallible, the error must lie with us. Always. What I couldn't know, are his designs, or plan.

goodspear's picture
His plan is a future and a

His plan is a future and a hope for all those who love Him. Jesus is preparing a place for us and Paul said he heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak when he went to paradise. We can always know that His ultimate plan is AWESOME! and my spirit is already there! because of Christ in me. You know like that expression, "I am with you in spirit" My heart is already where He is and you could know this for yourself, too. :-)

ThePragmatic's picture
This is not intended as an

This is not intended as an insult...

I'm glad for you that you are "happy".
But this kind of complete mindless drivel, shows a complete disconnection from reality. You talk to god/jesus and god/jesus talks to you. You "know" about gods plan and a lot of other "facts" that is completely unknowable.
This indoctrinated, mind washed behaviour is horrifying to see, and it actually makes me nauseous to read your blissfully ignorant posts.

science's picture
Forget it, Prag...we are

Forget it, Prag...we are dealing with a REAL space cadet!!!

ThePragmatic's picture
Your right. :)

Your right. :)

Jeff Vella Leone's picture
well said

well said

science's picture
If you are waitung to find

If you are waitung to find out the "ultimate plan," forget it... you will be waiting for at LEAST another 3-4 thousand years!!! There are so many Gods, and religions, who's to say which one is THE correct God?? This conversation got so crazy, I MUST bow out!!

Kataclismic's picture
I'm still working on focusing

I'm still working on focusing on something that doesn't exist. Thanks but I think I'll pass, seems like a huge waste of energy trying to focus on something that has not an essence which can be focused on. But then I use silly things like simple logic in my daily life and couldn't possibly have the magnificent vision you have Mitch.

Mitch's picture
First off, thank you for the

First off, thank you for the complement.

I guess what I'd like to say, is that confronting faith isn't always best done through rational argument. Sometime, appealing to the human can have more success.

Andrew McArthur's picture
You seem to see a fundamental

You seem to see a fundamental difference between human and rational. I prefer to be human and rational. I guess that explains my disbelief.

science's picture

RATIONAL THINKING, Andy? Oh no, we can't have that!! Common sense, logic, reality, PROVEN SCIENCE... head for the hills, we can't have people hearing that stuff!!!

Mitch's picture
There can be a difference,

There can be a difference, sure. In fact, there are many irrational humans, and often being human IS being irrational.

Many of humanities most heroic, compassionate deeds were irrational decisions when they were made.

n7natnat's picture
What did God do during that

What did God do during that eternity before he created everything? If God was all that existed back then, what disturbed the eternal equilibrium and compelled him to create? Was he bored? Was he lonely? God is supposed to be perfect. If something is perfect, it is complete--it needs nothing else. We humans engage in activities because we are pursuing that elusive perfection, because there is disequilibrium caused by a difference between what we are and what we want to be. If God is perfect, there can be no disequilibrium. There is nothing he needs, nothing he desires, and nothing he must or will do. A God who is perfect does nothing except exist. A perfect creator God is impossible.
But, for the sake of argument, let's continue. Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.
The Christians' objection to this argument involves freewill. They say that a being must have freewill to be happy. The omnibenevolent God did not wish to create robots, so he gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness. But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.
God is omniscient. When he created the universe, he saw the sufferings which humans would endure as a result of the sin of those original humans. He heard the screams of the damned. Surely he would have known that it would have been better for those humans to never have been born (in fact, the Bible says this very thing), and surely this all-compassionate deity would have foregone the creation of a universe destined to imperfection in which many of the humans were doomed to eternal suffering. A perfectly compassionate being who creates beings which he knows are doomed to suffer is impossible.

I would also like to ask for evidence for your claims that revolve around your theology: where is your proof that god created free will? Lots of philosophies and religions have free will in them and where they came from. What makes yours any different?

n7natnat's picture
Also, I would like to say I

Also, I would like to say I am glad you have faith. Why? Because faith is acknowledging you have no evidence for your claim, but you have hope in it. If you had evidence for god, you wouldn't need faith: it's redundant and unnecessary. Science doesn't have faith because it works off evidence and empirical evidence. You work off vague hopes and fears. Not grounded rationality when it comes to the intent of what is plausible and true. And I would like to say that if you bring up some stuff we don't know yet such as what caused the big bang, that isn't proof of god. Not knowing who killed John Doe doesn't mean elmo did it. You need evidence if you want to say it's god. Would you say someone off the street committed the murder with no evidence???? Does this seem like a rational way of thinking when it comes to the intent of truth? I would hope you would say no. I could be wrong and your dogmatism and stupidity could be farther than I originally thought. But I would like to leave this off with a quote: "Science doesn't know everything; religion doesn't know anything." Science so far is not omniscient, but religion works off faith/hope, not evidence. Thus, it knows "nothing".

Mitch's picture
n7 the contradictions in the

n7 the contradictions in the bible are legion. That's why faith is required. Faith is the acceptance of something as truth, even without evidence - and sometimes, in spite of evidence.

Ration holds no sway over that kind of devotion.

n7natnat's picture
You mean rational reasoning

You mean rational reasoning can't sway over dogmatism. Dogmatism is the "devil" at work ironically. It won't let you be free. Your stuck in a fantasy and can't experience reality to your full potential. And yes people can still be swayed. I was. So that last statement isn't quite valid.


Donating = Loving

Heart Icon

Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.

Or make a one-time donation in any amount.