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arakish, how can you call anything good or evil without a moral lawgiver? In order for evil to be a coherent concept God must exist. Otherwise all of your ranting is mere opinion.
AJ777 "arakish, how can you call anything good or evil without a moral lawgiver?"
Read one of the many answers you have already been given and simply ignored to go on endlessly and inanely asking the same stupid fucking question.
Troll.
"In order for evil to be a coherent concept God must exist."
Rubbish, evil is a word humans created to describe certain behaviours. Are you really claiming that without a deity you wouldn't know that raping and murdering a child was wrong? Again all I can hope is you never succumb to reason and lose your delusional belief in a deity.
"all of your ranting is mere opinion."
As is yours of course, though paradoxically your histrionics is based on irrational hokum,, rather than any objective evidence, despite your risible hubris.
How can an objective moral standard be obtained through belief in a deity you can demonstrate no objective evidence for?
I challenge you to demonstrate what you consider to be the best piece of objective evidence there is for a deity?
AJ777: how can you call anything good or evil without a moral lawgiver?
The "moral lawgiver" has always been the family and community, which are the products of our evolution as social primates. Ever heard of the "wisdom of the crowd"?
Morality and society evolve in a changing world. Religions try to freeze that evolution by applying a veneer of supernatural transcendence to the values of a particular society at a particular time. Invariably the results are horrific.
The morality of society and family is not perfect, but it's far more humane than religious laws.
@ AJ777
I can call anything good or evil because I am mine own moral lawgiver. Morality is entirely subjective. You still have yet to provide any OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that Morality is objective.
First, you must provide OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that your Sky Faerie even exists. Remember what the true definition of atheism is? Here is an example.
You: "In order for evil to be a coherent concept God must exist."
Me: "I do not believe you. Please provide OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE else your claim is entirely preposterous and shall be summarily dismissed."
As Sheldon has commented, your grasp of the English language is showing me that English is NOT your primary language. You do not even know what "atheism" or "morality" even means. Even in First Grade I knew what morality meant. Why do fail in knowing what it is at your age?
Ranting? Looks like someone forgot the tale of the pan and the kettle. You asked a question. I answered it. If you want to call my answers ranting, then again you still fail to understand English. What country are you located? Mauritania?
And yes, my take on Morality is entirely subjective to me. Thus, yes, my mere opinion. However, I guarantee that are thousands of people who would agree to my definition of morality for every one person who agree with your definition.
Also that is typical of a Religious Absolutist. They come up against a person whose intelligence far surpasses their own. A person who using pure rationality and logic can completely and utterly destroy your preposterous and fallacious claims. And then they have no recourse but ad hominem fallacies.
Also, here is my Morality:
My Ten Commandments of Humanity
And these ten are more relevant than any ten thousand you could come up with from your Sky Faerie.
rmfr
Sheldon, go read a book if you are truly interested in the evidence for God. I’m curious what would convince you God exists, or what would be the best evidence for you?
You are the believer. The burden of proof is on you.
So you can't offer a single piece of evidence for your beliefs and assertion at all? Quelle surprise...
"Full of sound and fury, but signifying nothing" might have been written with your verbiage in mind.
"go read a book if you are truly interested in the evidence for God"
Why don't you, you're the one who claims a deity exists, but then when asked for your best piece of objective evidence can't produce a single word, priceless.
@ AJ777
I just read a book...by David Weber, it had absolutely no evidence for a god or gods in it...rattling good yarn though.
AJ777: "Sheldon, go read a book if you are truly interested in the evidence for God. I’m curious what would convince you God exists, or what would be the best evidence for you?"
Although directed at Sheldon, I am also going to answer this and do so before anybody else's replies.
Why don't you go and read a book?
Scientists/Atheists read many books and still feel they have a lot to learn.
Religious Absolutists barely read one book and feel they know everything.
As Cognostic once said, “Someone once asked me if I read the bible, I said sure. Then I asked, “Have you read anything else?” ”
And I guarantee Sheldon is very much like me. But for me, the only evidence I would consider is OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that I can then take into several labs and give it 1001 tests to prove its veracity. Otherwise, anything you could supply as evidence is likely to be preposterous and fallacious without any tests. That is want Religious Absolutists are taught.
The confirmation bias of where you simply repudiate anything that stands against your beliefs, even if it irrefutably counters those beliefs. You only affirm those things that you think you can rationalize from your indoctrination process to make sense for your position. Religious Absolutists are trained to react to ideas, and to reject them no matter what they are told, presented, and/or taught. They are taught to never question their beliefs. Militantly trained to maintain and preserve the faith. And, due to this designed abusive training and indoctrination process, they shall do so with apologetics, beguiling dialectical semantics, distorted and perverted data, emotional whiny-ass pleas, and sometimes divinely-inspired violence. Worst of all, their conditioning is so ingrained that most never question why they need to defend their belief at all. Using rationality and logic, this means it is nothing more than playing “make-believe,” and it is not even a sincere belief most of the time. It is a delusion called, “Let’s play pretend.”
What you need to do is to remove those god glasses, unplug, and look at reality.
rmfr
PS — Now to read what others replied.
@aj777
What objective evidence do you have a god exist? Not subjective evidence from your mind.
I apply xenoview's razor to your claims that a god exist.
Xenoview's razor
Objective claims requires objective evidence
Or what kind of evidence?
How many times must this be repeated?
ONLY OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE.
See? Your grasp on English is non-existent.
rmfr
So, you’re only willing to accept evidence that can be observed inside the universe or natural world to discover if something exists outside the universe or supernatural world. That is a category error.
@AJ777
"So, you’re only willing to accept evidence that can be observed inside the universe or natural world to discover if something exists outside the universe or supernatural world. That is a category error."
Actually, postulating something supernatural or outside the universe is a fail in itself. It is by definition untestable.
Please provide OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE that anything can exist outside of the real universe. Just by making that statement is a logical fallacy. You really need to do more reading than that one obsolete, irrelevant, barbaric, savage, offensive, and unsubstantiated, immoral Bronze and Iron Age religious text. The Bible is irrelevant in today's society. Your version of "morality" is irrelevant in toady's society. All religion is irrelevant.
As science progresses, religion will forever continue sinking into darker and smaller pockets until it is nothing more than a pest like a cockroach.
rmfr
@AJ777
Uh no. That is basic common sense everyone should have and it is rather scary you do not have it, and seemingly steadfastly refuse to think that it is even a problem. Stuff that exist outside the universe or only in the supernatural should be of zero concern to you.
As soon as you start accepting things without real world evidence you open yourself to a whole host of problems, like falling for the con that is religion. Cool thing is, you can beat this con real easy, just start demanding real world evidence, like you do for (hopefully) just about everything else in life.
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▮ Please include @LogicFTW in responses directed to me. ▮
▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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"only willing to accept evidence that can be observed inside the universe or natural world "
Hilarious, can you demonstrate objective evidence there is anything else?
What evidence would you accept that invisible unicorns exist that are undetectable in any objective way?
Do you people even read the stuff you right?
@aj777
Objective evidence that exist outside the mind.
Sheldon I don’t think you’re interested in evidence based on past conversations.
AJ77: All you have done is waggle your fingers over the keyboard in complete nonsense. You have provided NOTHING AT ALL supporting ANYTHING AT ALL you have inanely asserted with NO EVIDENCE AT ALL.
EVIDENCE: 1.
the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
You have been called on your bullshit assertions numerous times and instead of supporting your "OPINION" you ignore posts and try to intellectualize your opinions without regard for EVIDENCE. You would not know something evidence related if it jumped up and bit off your nose.
"Sheldon I don’t think you’re interested in evidence based on past conversations."
I don't think you are able to think, based on your posts.
You run away every time your asked for evidence, so do please do stop pretending as we're too familiar with theistic hubris evaporating into evasive obfuscation like you have just done when they are called on to demonstrate this evidence they keep claiming exists.
I challenge you again to demonstrate what you consider to be the best piece of objective evidence you think exists for your deity.
"He stood rooted to the spot, and speechless, and moved mindlessly from one foot to another, as if he had a hundred each of those appendages, and was determined to try each one in turn"
I'm not holding my breath.
Cognistic, what kind of evidence would you accept?
@ AJ777
Why don't you just give us what you got?
Your verbose meandering around something that should be simple, if not blindingly obvious is causing the suspicion that you have nothing at all....
First, you need to define what you are trying to prove.
EVIDENCE: Use the damn dictionary. I realize you have never attempted to present an argument from a position of factual evidence before. It's not your fault your educations is lacking. This happens a lot to people involved in religions. There is only "evidence." The "evidence" is true and it supports the claim you are making or the "evidence" is poor and does not support the claim you are making. So far, you are doing a dismal job of supporting anything. Perhaps if we go back to square one and use our dictionaries.
EVIDENCE: 1.
The available body of FACTS or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.
FACT: 1. thing that is known or proved to be true.
2. The truth about events as opposed to interpretation. (Objective, valid, verifiable, repeatable, facts.)
So he's offered fuck all after all that posturing, is anyone remotely surprised? Every time you ask a theist to demonstrate some evidence the silence is deafening.
First time he has addressed me Sheldon. Perhaps he thinks he will have better luck with his nonsense on this court. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !!!!
The cosmological argument is an example of evidence for a creator I’m sure you are familiar with.
1. Whatever begins to exist has a cause of its beginning.
2. The universe began to exist.
3. Therefore, the universe has a cause of its beginning.
https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-natu...
That argument holds only if one accepts the first premise. I, for one, do not. I reject it as evidence since it cannot be demonstrated to be true.
1. That is not falsifiable. It is true in an isolated system that effects have causes, but that tells you nothing about the origin of the system.
2. You cannot prove that the universe began to exist: you can only refer to an earliest known event.
3. That is not falsifiable.
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