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Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
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@ and science feels factual and cold.
Science is not cold and facts are amazing insights into our very nature. Find Douglas Adams discussing the Puddle Analogy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8mJr4c66bs He is the author of the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
You came from the universe. You are part of the universe. Every atom in your body came from the stars. You share atoms with the dinosaurs. You are a part of all that is. You are the material of the stars and of the earth and all the distant planets. The materials of your body seem to occur at the same infrequence throughout the universe. There is no reason to engage in anthropomorphism, or call anything alive or God. (Not without facts and evidence) But the fact is; You are Amazing and this life is Amazing and this world is Amazing, and the universe is Amazing and if you think you know the answer is God - You are a frigging IDIOT who is making assertions with no evidence at all.
Rather than "In an infinite universe, everything that can happen will happen." I think its more a case of "In an infinite universe, everything that can happen has the potential to happen.", meaning your well dressed monkey with the shameless birds could happen, if it hasn't already, but not necessarily will happen.
Our existence as a simian species living on this relative speck of dust in the universe not only had the potential to happen, we know by our experience, it did happen. However at very many points in time during our development, we could have been swept into oblivion by the many global extinctions that have occurred. It think it was Stephen J. Gould who said 'We made it by the very skin of our teeth."
And like you, Dragonfly, "I just don't understand how such a series of unlikely events could happen in even several billion years"...but isn't it all the more bloody wonderfully incredible, if you consider it was not "created" or "planned"?!
Wow, I'll have to think about this: "In an infinite universe, everything that can happen has the potential to happen." So if everything goes on endlessly (assuming monkeys and birds, etc. continue to exist), it wouldn't *have* to happen sooner or later?
Our existence IS bloody wonderful and incredible, but the new sensation of vulnerability due to no God holding things together is terrifying to me.
Your first sentence is all that is needed to say. There is a law of probability for unlikely events.
@Dragonfly: new sensation of vulnerability due to no God holding things together is terrifying to me.
When has god ever held anything together? I've never understood why people waste time praying during wars or natural disasters.
On the other hand, you can always rely on gravity, thermodynamics, the strong and weak nuclear forces, chemistry to hold things together and keep them predictable.
It's just taught as part of indoctrination, with verses that support that God is in control and will keep things together (Genesis 8:22, for example). It doesn't feel like wasting time when you're taught to believe there's a personal God listening and (sometimes) intervening.
As far as relying on gravity, thermodynamics, the strong and weak nuclear forces, chemistry, etc., to hold things together, what's to prevent a giant meteorite or some other calamity from occurring on Earth? I'm now so worried about the world and the continuation of life. I'm realizing just how much I used to pray and how it gave me a little sense of peace. I prayed when I went to drive anywhere, prayed for my parents to have a peaceful death when it's their time to die, prayed for safety, wellness, help with depression and anxiety and more. Again, if you've been heavily conditioned to believe there's literally a God listening to you, it doesn't feel like a waste of time. I think it's a coping mechanism to deal with the fears and uncertainties of life .
@Dragonfly: what's to prevent a giant meteorite or some other calamity from occurring on Earth?
Certainly not prayer.
Science, maybe. If we turn our minds to it, a fraction of the money wasted on military budgets right now could create a really effective collision early warning system and some means to deflect or destroy impactors. We could also terraform Mars and maybe moons of Jupiter and Saturn so we have places to retreat to if the Earth is threatened.
For these things to happen, we need to fight tooth and nail against the anti-science religious nuts who want creationism taught to kids instead of science.
Praying isn't coping. It's a drug that conditions you to welcome death as a transition to something better. We should be fighting for life with every breath, squeezing every drop of experience out of every instant of awareness. As Dylan Thomas wrote, "Rage, rage against the dying of the light."
Agreed.
Yes, I'm increasingly think the New Atheists have it right. We cannot be complacent about the effect religion is having on the world. It's creating conflict, inhibiting progress and causing often lifelong damage to people.
In Christian schools, we were given a VERY brief overview of the claims of evolution, and it was taught in a way to debunk it. The hoaxes and missing links were emphasized. Carbon dating was said to be so flawed that it was mistaken in dating discoveries by thousands of years. The earth was only something like 6,000 years old. The global flood really happened. Jonah was really in the whale and lived to tell about it. Everything, including their "science," was explained in a way to support their conclusions rather than to truly search for truth. It's scary and sad as we have thousands (or more) students throughout the world who are not going into the sciences when they might be the very people to help shape the future.
"Prayer isn't coping. It's a drug that conditions you to welcome death as a transition to something better." This is exactly the definition of a coping mechanism. And when I said prayer is a coping mechanism, I meant religion in general. Throughout history, humans with anxieties/fears about our existence, purpose, suffering and death wanted some way to cope with all of that, so they created the delusion of God and religion with all of its practices, including prayer. Coping mechanisms don't have to be legitimate or work for them to be coping mechanisms.
@ I think it's a coping mechanism to deal with the fears and uncertainties of life .
I agree. But why fear them when you can be Amazed by them. And why Pray when every study ever done on prayer shows no better than chance effects. Nothing Fails Like Prayer.
@ "what's to prevent a giant meteorite or some other calamity from occurring on Earth?"
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ...... *Tears in my eyes* NOT GOD and that is for sure. When has God ever done anything? Disease, mass starvation, tsunamis, floods, fires. hurricanes, rapes. murders, flesh eating virus, deformity, suffering old age, and death from above with threats of hell fire and brimstone just for asking a question. You thing a meteorite or come other calamity is going to be stopped by the god you worshiped. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha .......
No, I don't think it is. Due to my indoctrination, I thought it was. Hence, the feeling of vulnerability now that I realize that God doesn't exist.
Please don't ridicule me. I was raised in fundamentalism by parents who graduated from a well-known religious university in South Carolina. My ex-husband was a grad of that same university. I went to Christian schools and eventually went to a well-known Christian college in Florida. I've been through "hell" trying to work my way out of this mental prison and into some rational belief, and it's been a very difficult road. It's still extremely difficult as I'm having some psychological problems (grief, depression, anxiety, etc.) due to losing my belief. I'm doing the best I can. Please help me, not ridicule me.
@Dragonfly
It kind of sounds like withdrawal from a nasty drug, a drug you've been fed for 50 years. I can't even imagine.
That's pretty much how it feels.
@Nyar Re: "It kind of sounds like withdrawal from a nasty drug, a drug you've been fed for 50 years. I can't even imagine."
Yeah, that is a fairly accurate comparison. Trying to break away from that fear of hell and constantly second-guessing yourself about whether or not you are "good enough" for God are definitely difficult habits to break. And my indoctrination was nowhere near as bad as what Dragonfly's was. I can definitely relate to the turmoil that must be going 'round-n-'round in her head lately. But I can only imagine how much worse it must be for her than it was for me. Even so, it seems she is handling it quite well so far. I detect a pretty strong warrior spirit in her, even if she does no realize it herself.
Dragonfly, you wrote, “I’m doing the best I can.”
You’re doing quite well. Trust yourself.
Thank you!
@Dragonfly
Hey there! Absolutely great seeing you around and asking questions. *big smile* You are on the right track. And, if it helps any, it sounds to me like you are doing great. That fear and depression you are feeling are both perfectly normal and understandable. Due to your long-term indoctrination, you now feel like you are on a tightrope without a safety net. And that sensation can be quite scary and discomforting. However, there will come a day when you will finally realize that safety net was never there in the first place. It was an illusion. You have always been walking without that net. And once you realize that, your stride will gain more and more confidence with each step you take.
Also, please try not to get too worked up about all the science stuff, especially when dealing with the higher quantum physics and cosmology mathematics. Personally, I happen to love math and science, and as such I do happen to understand SOME of the things that are discussed by a few of the higher intellectually -gifted members on here. But I'll be the first to admit they can totally lose me at times depending on the subject matter. No sweat, though. Because when it comes down to the brass tacks, none of that really has any bearing on the reason(s) I don't believe in any god(s). Sure, the science is definitely helpful (on top of being very interesting) in that respect, but it is not what brought me to atheism, nor does it help me maintain it. All the science does is simply help confirm and explain feelings I have had most of my life but was never able to fully articulate. Hope that makes sense.
Oh, and I hope you don't mind my saying so, but I'm fairly certain Cog was not trying to ridicule you. He wasn't laughing at you. He was laughing at the concept of a god doing anything to intervene in any type of natural (or other type) disaster. To be honest, I even got a good chuckle out of that. *grin* You see, nature is just nature. It simply does what it does. It doesn't plan, it doesn't think, it does not act on emotions or with any intent. It just IS. And if you are concerned about there being no god to stop a giant meteor from striking the Earth, then try asking yourself this simple question: If this god is all-knowing and all-powerful and all-kind-forgiving-benevolent yadda-yadda-yadda, then why should there EVER be any fear of such meteors in the first place? Seems to me those "killer meteors" shouldn't even exist for us to worry about them. Anyway, hope some of this helps. And, again, it is good seeing you here. Hang in there. It does get better over time.
Tin-Man,
Regarding needing a sense of a safety net, I'm wondering how to learn to cope without the crutch of god/religion. A loved one is in a horrific car crash or dies or whatever. I've always been an anxious person, and prayer and a sense that everything is going according to God's will has been a comforting delusion. Maybe I need to start a separate thread to learn how others cope with those stressful times. Sometimes I wonder if I am strong enough psychologically to let go of God, but knowing what I know now, it'd be very hard, if not impossible, to return to some kind of faith.
"Also, please try not to get too worked up about all the science stuff, especially when dealing with the higher quantum physics and cosmology mathematics. Personally, I happen to love math and science, and as such I do happen to understand SOME of the things that are discussed by a few of the higher intellectually -gifted members on here. But I'll be the first to admit they can totally lose me at times depending on the subject matter. No sweat, though. Because when it comes down to the brass tacks, none of that really has any bearing on the reason(s) I don't believe in any god(s). Sure, the science is definitely helpful (on top of being very interesting) in that respect, but it is not what brought me to atheism, nor does it help me maintain it. All the science does is simply help confirm and explain feelings I have had most of my life but was never able to fully articulate. Hope that makes sense."
You know, I've had those feelings my whole life. Unlike others who felt all secure in their standing with Jesus/God, I never did. It never seemed real enough to me. I was always working on trying to believe more and praying that verse "Lord I believe, please help me with my unbelief," but there was never help. For me, religion has never been a settling thing that brings about peace. It's always been believed and practiced out of fear. I really want to be 100% rid of it, and now! But I guess it's a process, and not a linear one, either.
@ Dragonfly
I really want to be 100% rid of it, and now! But I guess it's a process, and not a linear one, either.
Correct , it IS a process. It is as messy, I have observed, as a divorce, moving house or any other life changing event /process in your life. Some friends of mine have left their churches over the years and each has expressed the same insecurities as yourself. However you can live life free of lies and the dead hand of fear. Make secular friends, discuss your feelings here. Repeat to yourself every day "god probably does not exist so I shouldn't worry about it" Like moving out from your parents for the first time, its scary, you hit bumps, you will make mistakes but it is the FIRST time you have been an adult...now to start an adult life where YOU and any YOU are responsible for your own well being.
Have a great and godsless day...
"A loved one is in a horrific car crash or dies or whatever. I've always been an anxious person, and prayer and a sense that everything is going according to God's will has been a comforting delusion."
Prayer has been proven ineffective. Despite the fact millions knew of his failing health, and with many (tens of thousands) praying for him for many years, Billy Graham died.
Nothing above ridicules you? You simply have not learned to separate yourself from your religion yet. I said nothing at all about you. The post was about GOD and is ability to do anything at all. READ IT AGAIN. Your God is a complete asshole and you are more moral than him. Would you stop a child from starving? God wont. Would you stop a tornado from destroying the lives of thousands of people? God wont. Would you prevent disease? God wont. Will you stop murder and rape. God wont. - Will you keep priests from having sex with little boys, God doesn't. How is that any reflection on you at all. Certainly you are more intelligent and more caring than your god, who is known for ripping open the stomachs of pregnant women and tossing their unborn babies onto rocks. Can you justify such behavior? Can you justify it in any way at all? Your god can. Certainly you are better than him.
What is your problem? Why do you keep on referring to god as "your god?" I've stated that I'm in transition and leaning heavily toward atheism. Don't think I didn't see the post in which you said, "you are an IDIOT"--all caps and later (or admin did) deleted it. How about you stick to the question and actually try to help?
Our God then. It's the only one I knew growing up too. Ha ha ha ,,,, How about all Gods. It makes no difference to me. Sorry it is a sore spot for you. Apologies.
Still there is this "I'm someone in transition and leaning heavily toward atheism." Not Atheist, Still Theist but leaning towards Atheism." Hence.... GOD. LOL Certainly more yours than mine.
Still if you want to take offense where none is intended. Ignore all the rest and simply cherry pick the things I say. Not a problem for me.
Maybe you need to work on your delivery then, because the way you phrase things is in a very antagonistic manner. I really don't want to block you because I believe you probably have a lot of information to offer. I've also been assured by another that your attention to this thread means that you probably consider me worth helping, but honestly, you're beating me down to the point I'm in tears. I'm really struggling to try to rid myself of any issues left from heavy religious indoctrination/brainwashing. I really need help, not constant knocking for having believed or for having some shred of belief left in me. If you can't or won't help me, please stop posting in this thread. I'm feeling very unwelcome here because of your comments and am considering leaving, although I really need an atheist community, and one that says "we are atheists who gives a shit."
To everybody else who has helped, I appreciate it very much, and I'm thinking about your comments and recommendations and taking notes.
Ha ha ha ..... Perhaps you need a thicker skin? The way I phrase things has nothing to do with accusing you of attacking me when you have not intended to do so. The way I phrased things never made the inquiry "What's your problem?" The way I phrased things never insisted that "You needed to work on your delivery." Did I tell you that I was going to "Block you." No one here, including me has ever said anything to "Beat you down." You have a shred of belief left in you? Really? I hadn't noticed... (Sarcasm!) Let's tie a string around it and jerk it out! You feel like leaving because of my comments? You need to go back and read them again,. Not a single thing I have said to you is negative in any way., You have cherry picked certain expressions out of the posts, ignoring the main focus and content, just to harp on them. Go and find one of my posts that is negative. I CHALLENGE YOU TO FIND ONE. IT'S NOT THERE! You simply do not like a few expressions I have used and feel insulted by them, That says more about you than it does about me. As far as "HELPING" goes. Help shows up when you are ready for it. It is no one's job to help you. It's not my job to help you. It is your job to help yourself. No one on this site, including me, has been rude or disrespectful to you. NO ONE. Even taking offense at something I said, even if it is out of context, is fine. You are welcome to consider it rude. It was not intended that way. NO ONE is picking on you. No one is not supporting you. No one is bashing you.
YOU WILL NOT FIND A SINGLE POST FROM ANYONE THAT DOES THIS, NOT EVEN FROM ME.
I CHALLENGE YOU TO POINT ONE OUT OR SIMPLY BE AN ADULT AND APOLOGIZE FOR YOUR OWN NEGATIVITY.
@Dragonfly OP
Others have answered your original post well, but figured I would throw my 2 cents in and it may help, a slightly different take.
Why is there so much order and development in the universe?
Well that is a matter of perspective, I would say the universe is by and large 99+ percent highly disorganized and completely undeveloped. 99.9+ percent of the universe is just hydrogen and a few other base elements floating around near completely inert and very spread out. Imagine the most incredibly vast and lifeless desert, no plants no water, no life. Now in the the center of this vast endless desert, there is a single blade of grass growing. That is something close to the scale of the universe and life. Complexity in the universe, is the very rare exception to the rule to a whole lot of very simple unorganized mostly nothingness.
You could even go as far to say the vast majority of the universe is a highly organized, very uniform, mostly inert, and spread out, AKA non chaotic and organized in boring near nothingness. With the tiny rare islands of life being the disorganized chaos with forces of efficiency running amok that leads to the rise of life, and in the case of humans the rise of semi "intelligent" life.
The likelihood that you sat at your computer and typed is 100% it already happened. The likelihood such an event would repeat almost exactly the same way somewhere else is yes, near nil. We like to place "chance" on past events, but chance does not work that way, Chance is really only meant for future prediction, the chances the sun will rise from what we call the "east" tomorrow? Very very likely. The chance you will pick the random numbers of Tuesdays megamillions and be the sole winner of a 1.6 billion + USD jackpot? Near nil, to the point that pure efficiency wise it is a waste of effort to even consider it. (It is fun to fantasize for 2 bucks though!)
Your boyfriend does not know anymore then anyone else if the universe is infinite or not. Infinity may well truly be impossible and not exist except as a concept. However, following the concept of infinite space, that would mean absolutely everything is possible and has happened, right, this, very moment. In a true infinity scenario, there is another "earth" and another you that is exactly the same, except in that scenario, you step outside and the sole winning mega million 1.6 billion dollar jackpot winning ticket just floats out of the sky into your outstretched hand when you asked for it to happen.
So yes, in a true infinity scenario, right now there is a: "a monkey wearing glasses and riding a tricycle with a polkadot scarf around his neck and two yellow birds mating on the top of his head while he rides" happening right now, this very second. Anything you can imagine, no matter how crazy is happening right now. Even the various religious god ideas. (Does not make any of the various god ideas anymore real or relevant in your life then anything else in this infinity scenario where absolutely everything happens.)
To me infinity is another word for "everything" and just like we humans cannot hope to understand true nothingness, perhaps even more challenging would be to try to understand true "everything" with every possibility realized.
If the universe is not truly infinite, it technically changes nothing except our possible understanding of the universe in our heads, the universe, and our tiny tiny corner of it just IS.
Me personally I guess the universe is not truly infinite, a guess not made with any proof or logic, but simply because a non infinite universe is easier to understand and seems to be more useful in our own tiny corner of it, then to think the universe is infinite.
I hope the above helps at least a little bit, feel free to ask for clarification or more details or your own thoughts on this.
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▮ Please include @LogicFTW in responses directed to me. ▮
▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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@LogicFTW, thanks for your thoughts on this. A few comments:
"However, following the concept of infinite space, that would mean absolutely everything is possible and has happened, right, this, very moment."
No, as I said, anything that is *possible* will happen. That also means that ONLY the things that are possible will happen. Knowing which things are and are not possible is something that is always evolving as we learn and grow. Many things we once thought were impossible have become possible. However, things that are truly impossible will never happen. Anything that does not violate the physical laws of the universe is possible, and everything else is impossible. Our understanding of those physical laws is always evolving and growing.
"Anything you can imagine, no matter how crazy is happening right now. Even the various religious god ideas. (Does not make any of the various god ideas anymore real or relevant in your life then anything else in this infinity scenario where absolutely everything happens.)"
Only things that can happen will happen. The supernatural, by definition, violates the physical laws of the universe, so a god or gods cannot exist and a winning lotto ticket will not float down from the sky merely because I asked for it to. Saying that in an infinite universe, everything that can happen will happen does not mean that it all has to happen right now, either.
"To me infinity is another word for "everything"
Infinite does not imply that everything can happen. Infinite simply means that the extent of time or space is infinite. The supernatural cannot happen because by definition because it violates the natural laws of the universe. "Super" means beyond the natural, and beyond the natural means it violates the laws of the natural universe.
@Dragonfly
Sounds like you are catching on. Excellent. *thumbs up*
It is late, I will make a proper reply tomorrow.
Thank you for reading my post and you bring up good points I agree with.
Real quick I wanted to clarify:
Lots of people know and understand the following: "in infinite space: anything that can happen will happen."
A perhaps more accurate way to say it, but perhaps less poetical, is: In infinite space, every possible possibility that can occur, is occuring.
Infinite space is not constrained in size, so there is no need for the "will" part in the original well known saying/description. Due to no limitation in size, all things are happening, right now somewhere in the infinite space. It is not like: "Oh hey we will have an entirely identical universe except this 1 atom x here has swapped places with atom y here. Oh wait there is no room right now for this possibility but there will be room made later." In infinite space that does not happen, one does not run out of room. So in true "infinite space" all possibilities are occurring right now. You can't have something bigger than infinity, so infinite space means there is no time constraint on it.
I try not to think about it to much! And with no way to back up the idea of infinity due to zero evidence to be had either way, I just go with that space is not infinite before my brain explodes :)
It helps to remember that the concept of infinity is human made and is strictly theoretical, no way to prove true infinity in actual reality.
When I worked in a laboratory I had quite a bit of time to spare ... so I made a substance that, as far as I could establish, had never existed before I made it. I created a molecule that only by the application of intelligence could it come into existence. Some matter is created without the involvement of intelligence ... some requires intelligence for it to come into existence..
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