but I do not believe in the Bible
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Oh.
yea............. makes debating people a little more confusing on my end
so you believe in the most evil character imaginable because the church says so?
Just so you know, everything you think to know about Jesus come directly or indirectly from the bible.
So if you do not believe (at least in part) in the bible you cannot call yourself a christian.
Look, I came to my faith through mathematics. So you're going to have to speak my language or it will just be bar-bar to me :)
First off, I'm gonna want you to define your terms. Then I want you to take emotion out of the equation and simply ask, is this a reasonable universe? Based on math, and I suppose the ugly stepchild of science)
To address your specific concerns
I believe, as many jews do, that the old testament was written in a time that was real shitty. Tribes fought for stupid reasons and murdered maliciously. Many people, justify crimes against humanity by attributing them to something else, such as "God". I believe that happened many times in the Old Testament
Now I have already heard the apologetical counterargument that if God is God, why would he allow this. Well, I claim he is not the God that is portrayed in popular media. All things have limitations and cannot be anything other than themselves (that is what THe Question taught me - "In whatever dimension 'Luthor is Luthor'" :).
So then goes the argument, if God is not what popular culture claims he is, what is he then? I don't know the guy, don't know if he she it exists, so don't ask me. But as an exercise, imagine an alien race of unlimited power sees that the Jews are dieing in concentration camps in WWII. What should they do? Should they reverse time so it never happened? If so, what would that cause to the rest of the universe?
I go to a church but I have never believed anything anyone at any church has ever said to me
I said I don't believe IN the bible. Believing in something is faith language for putting absolute faith in something
I hope that clears some things up. Feel free to add more comments. I'm always up for a round of fisticuffs :)
This doesn't make any sense to me. I understand how you could come to the conclusion that there is a higher power, be it the God of the Bible, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but what makes you a Christian if you do not believe that the God of the Bible exists?
Or, if you do believe he exists, then why do you claim the Bible is false?
If you think he is not as the Bible portrays him, what makes you a Christian and not a different religion or a deist?
Please do explain.
"but what makes you a Christian if you do not believe that the God of the Bible exists?"
Lots of Christians do not believe in God. This guy was an atheist theologian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Tillich
Here is an article on Christian atheism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_atheism
Atheists for Jesus:
http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com
The chrisian atheist:
http://www.lifechurch.tv/watch/christian-atheist/
And so on.
If you don't know god and you can't give me a description of him. Then how do you rule out any description of him. why can't I say god is Satan. I will tell you a little story ok. There is this small town out in the middle of nowhere. there are about 100 people in this town. One person is named Sam and no one can give a description of Sam. No one knows their face, age, height, voice, or even gender. Sam could be responsible for any number of things. Why can't I say Sam is the town rapist and murderer.
Fun fact: you describe yourself as agnostic. Your self description falls under the definition of agnostic theist. You believe chances are there is a god but you don't claim to KNOW one exists. You see thick headed "KNOWING" is gnosticism. Saying you don't KNOW means you are not gnostic agnostic.
Christian: One who believes in Christ
Look, I came to my faith through mathematics. So you're going to have to speak my language or it will just be bar-bar to me :)
First off, I'm gonna want you to define your terms. Then I want you to take emotion out of the equation and simply ask, is this a reasonable universe? Based on math, and I suppose the ugly stepchild of science)
To address your specific concerns
I believe, as many jews do, that the old testament was written in a time that was real shitty. Tribes fought for stupid reasons and murdered maliciously. Many people, justify crimes against humanity by attributing them to something else, such as "God". I believe that happened many times in the Old Testament
Now I have already heard the apologetical counterargument that if God is God, why would he allow this. Well, I claim he is not the God that is portrayed in popular media. All things have limitations and cannot be anything other than themselves (that is what THe Question taught me - "In whatever dimension 'Luthor is Luthor'" :).
So then goes the argument, if God is not what popular culture claims he is, what is he then? I don't know the guy, don't know if he she it exists, so don't ask me. But as an exercise, imagine an alien race of unlimited power sees that the Jews are dieing in concentration camps in WWII. What should they do? Should they reverse time so it never happened? If so, what would that cause to the rest of the universe?
I go to a church but I have never believed anything anyone at any church has ever said to me
I said I don't believe IN the bible. Believing in something is faith language for putting absolute faith in something
I hope that clears some things up. Feel free to add more comments. I'm always up for a round of fisticuffs :)
sorry about the double post. the forum, for whatever reason, isn't letting me delete the content I post
Mathematics has nothing to do with faith, as far as I know. It's a mechanism, that's all, a tool.
You don't explain that point.
well I had to take a leap of faith with my understanding of the universe. Cosmologists talk constantly about mathematical structure on a cosmic scale. Some things, such as the golden mean, are just eerie. This makes me think something beyond our capacity to understand is underpinning the universe. Call it God, or whatever.
The argument that whatever we don't understand must be god's doing is deeply flawed. If you go back to the 17C, we understood very little about anything, so we could have said that it was all god's doing. But now we understand a very great deal so we were wrong. At some point we will work out exactly how everything works and then there will be nowhere for god to hide.
Nutmeg,
"If you go back to the 17C, we understood very little about anything, so we could have said that it was all god's doing. But now we understand a very great deal so we were wrong. At some point we will work out exactly how everything works and then there will be nowhere for god to hide."
It is all God's doing. God created all the natural processes. So studying natural processes is studying God's work. Science isn't about if God exists or not, science is about studying how God's natural processes work. God created evolutionary processes, so that theory enlightens us on how her created species.
Supposing there was a huge building and you studied the building to determine how the engineers achieved the final product. After you finished all your study of the building, does that mean the engineers never existed and have nowhere to hide?
Is mathematics an open system, or a closed system?
Is the universe open or closed?
"Is mathematics an open system, or a closed system?"
Neither. An abstract is not a thermodynamic system.
"Is the universe open or closed?"
Evidence seems to indicate that it is most likely closed.
""Is mathematics an open system, or a closed system?""
"Neither. An abstract is not a thermodynamic system."
You don't know much of anything about mathematics. If you want to duel in mathematics, I will get out all my torture devices and we can have some fun :)
"'Is the universe open or closed?""
"Evidence seems to indicate that it is most likely closed."
It appears that way. But how is that relevant to the issue at hand?
"You don't know much of anything about mathematics."
Why do you say that?
"If you want to duel in mathematics, I will get out all my torture devices and we can have some fun :)"
You are welcome to.
"It appears that way. But how is that relevant to the issue at hand?"
He asked, I answered.
""If you want to duel in mathematics, I will get out all my torture devices and we can have some fun :)""
"You are welcome to."
Alright, here is a basic one.
Construct an equalateral triangle with nothing but a compass, a sharpened pencil, a piece of paper and a straight edge (no markings for length).
Okay, I start by drawing a line, I then use my compass on lets say point A, and use the compass to draw an arc above the line. I then set the compass on the part where my arc intersect the line I drew, and use it to make an arc that marks the arc I already have drawn. Then I connect Point A with the intersect of my arcs and have all(ABC) necessary points for a triangle. Or, considering that my compass doubles as a protractor, I could simply use it to mark 60 degrees and skip the rest of it.
Depends on which way you would prefer.
This, however, does nothing to demonstrate that math is an open or closed thermodynamic system susceptible to entropy. Somehow, when you challenged me on this point, I thought you would be demonstrating how I was wrong...
"Okay, I start by drawing a line, I then use my compass on lets say point A, and use the compass to draw an arc above the line. I then set the compass on the part where my arc intersect the line I drew, and use it to make an arc that marks the arc I already have drawn. Then I connect Point A with the intersect of my arcs and have all(ABC) necessary points for a triangle. Or, considering that my compass doubles as a protractor, I could simply use it to mark 60 degrees and skip the rest of it.
Depends on which way you would prefer."
Good job. If my picture is correct, that only makes an isosoles triangle. Also, I forgot to clarify that the compass also has no markings. Now can you prove this is an equialateral triangle rigorously
"This, however, does nothing to demonstrate that math is an open or closed thermodynamic system susceptible to entropy. Somehow, when you challenged me on this point, I thought you would be demonstrating how I was wrong..."
I wasn't the one who challenged you. But I guess I will. Math is a construct. It is not real. Therefore, ithings such as thermodynamics and entropy do not apply to it. Whether Math itself is a closed or open system, I have not gotten that far in my studies (I assume it is closed, but it would probably take me decades to prove it)
Cheers :)
"Okay, I start by drawing a line, I then use my compass on lets say point A, and use the compass to draw an arc above the line. I then set the compass on the part where my arc intersect the line I drew, and use it to make an arc that marks the arc I already have drawn. Then I connect Point A with the intersect of my arcs and have all(ABC) necessary points for a triangle. Or, considering that my compass doubles as a protractor, I could simply use it to mark 60 degrees and skip the rest of it.
Depends on which way you would prefer."
Good job. If my picture is correct, that only makes an isosoles triangle. Also, I forgot to clarify that the compass also has no markings. Now can you prove this is an equialateral triangle rigorously?
"This, however, does nothing to demonstrate that math is an open or closed thermodynamic system susceptible to entropy. Somehow, when you challenged me on this point, I thought you would be demonstrating how I was wrong..."
I wasn't the one who challenged you. But I guess I will. Math is a construct. It is not real. Therefore, ithings such as thermodynamics and entropy do not apply to it. Whether Math itself is a closed or open system, I have not gotten that far in my studies (I assume it is closed, but it would probably take me decades to prove it)
Cheers :)
"Good job. If my picture is correct, that only makes an isosoles triangle."
If all angles inside of a triangle are 60 degrees, what kind of triangle is it?
"Also, I forgot to clarify that the compass also has no markings."
Okay, but then I probably wouldn't buy it. It wouldn't be very useful in my line of work.
"I wasn't the one who challenged you. But I guess I will."
Um, I challenged Apollo. I didn't challenge you. You actually DID challenge me by saying that I didn't understand math.
"Math is a construct. It is not real. Therefore, ithings such as thermodynamics and entropy do not apply to it."
Exactly what I told Apollo, isn't it. So why would you then tell me that I didn't understand math as if I was wrong.
"Whether Math itself is a closed or open system, I have not gotten that far in my studies (I assume it is closed, but it would probably take me decades to prove it)
Cheers :)"
I'm not sure the ideas of open or closed really apply to abstract concepts, even if it applies to what they are applied to. Though I suppose one could argue that language seems subject to entropy, lol.
The origimal geometers from greece used compasses that did not have markings, at least for their pure mathematuical endeavors. Other than that, I concede the race to you, because:
A) you have more energy
B)I'm tired
C)You haven't read Euclid's elements
"The origimal geometers from greece used compasses that did not have markings, at least for their pure mathematuical endeavors."
True, but to be fair, neither of them where expected to make mock-ups of current projects in a matter of hours for approval by anally retentive people good at physics and terrible at geometry, either. Not all jobs can be as platonically purist as the ancient Greeks...
"Other than that, I concede the race to you, because:
A) you have more energy"
I doubt it, I couldn't bring myself to sprint if I was on fire...
"B)I'm tired"
I know that feeling well, you should endeavor to get some rest soon, you won't be good to anybody exhausted.
"C)You haven't read Euclid's elements"
I probably did at some point, but given that I HAVE to read over a hundred novella-sized proposals a year, I have no recollection of it.
why do some atheists on this forum feel the need to actively insult people who disagree with them. I am here to talk about issues, not get in a mudslinging fight where the loudest and the meanest win
If you somehow managed to read an insult into my reply to you, then you have insulted yourself, as my insults were mainly directed at the supervisors who have to approve the aforementioned projects. I am not sure if you think I insulted you, but I didn't, and I didn't honestly believe that you would take it that way.
I inferred insults, but if no insults were intended, I must retract my statement
Cheers :)
Have a good one.
Vincent Paul Tran
Seriously why do you define yourself as a christian then?
What is a christian in your own mind?
Since a christian means a follower of Christ.
And a Christ is only mentioned in the bible and some other heretical text.
What does mathematics have to do with you being a christian?
Eg
Which criteria makes you a christian and not a Muslim/Hindu/Atheist?
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