These are the questions I asked:
"1.What are your general views on homosexuality, in terms of is it seen as a negative disposition?
2.Is it a sin?
(Side question: what is sin?)
3.If so, is it something that'll cause us to go to hell if we continue?
4.If not, what quotes do you have from the bible to support this?
5.Does believing in Jesus mean that the sin is okay?(if it's a sin)
6.What are some of the questions others have asked about homosexuality and what was your response to them?
Thank you"
And these are his answers:
"1. The best way I’ve seen same-sex attraction and homosexuality described from a Christian perspective is as a desire for something good (whether it be companionship, romantic relationship, sexual pleasure, someone who understands, or something else) that’s being sought after in a way contrary to the means God has provided for us to get those things. In that respect, it’s not too different from the other things people do that are contrary to God’s will.
2. The word ‘sin’ is used in different ways in the Bible - it could be a general attitude or it could be specific actions. Most broadly and generally sin is living our own way rather than living God’s way. The Bible makes a distinction between being tempted to sin (which is not inherently wrong, because even Jesus faced this) and actually sinning (which Jesus never did.) Being attracted to someone of the same sex isn’t a sin, and is better classed as temptation, but acting on that attraction through homosexual sex is.
As an aside, there are a few people in our church who I either know or suspect have this temptation and, because they are Christians, struggle against indulging it.
3. If a person goes to hell, it will be because they did not recognise they were a sinner and did not receive God’s offer of forgiveness through Jesus dying in their place (e.g., John 3:36.) This is where the difference between general and specific definitions of ‘sin’ come in - a person does not go to hell because of a specific sin, but because of a general attitude of antagonism or ignorance toward God and not wanting to be forgiven of that.
The best analogy I have for this is that general sin (rejecting/ignoring God) is the disease, and our specific sins are the symptoms of the disease. What kills you isn’t the symptoms - and it’s incorrect to say that they do - the source of the symptoms is the real thing that needs dealing with.
Once a person has received God’s forgiveness through Jesus, though, in God’s eyes they’re clean, though the past effects of their old life might remain. e.g., I speak to a lot of Christian guys who, despite being Christians, keep struggling with pornography. As much as I encourage them to resist the temptation to engage in it, I also remind them that anything they’ve done has been wiped clean by Jesus.
4. Look at Romans 1:18-32 to see that it’s the general attitude of ignorance and rejection of God which is the source of specific ‘sins,' including homosexual sex.
Check out Romans 3:21-26 to see that being righteous (right with God) is a matter of God’s action through Jesus alone, and not us improving ourselves.
Luke 17:3-4 sets a pattern for us forgiving others who sin repeatedly that must be patterned on the way God forgives us.
I can provide more if you want specific sources for the things I’ve said here.
5. Depends on the question being asked. ‘Is it okay’ can mean ‘Should I do it?’ in which case the answer is no (e.g., Romans 6:1-4 and following) - if you recognise something is contrary to God’s will for your life, you shouldn’t do it. But ‘is it okay’ can also mean, ‘will God forgive me if I do it and come back to God in repentance?’ the answer is absolutely yes because of Jesus. This is something about Christianity that particularly appeals to me - it’s realistic about the strength of temptation and refuses to call evil good, but offers acceptance and forgiveness for everyone, no matter how many times they fall.
6. The political question about marriage is a bit of a hotbed issue - People in my church are generally convinced that the Bible disapproves of homosexual sex but the question of whether we should make laws about it is an altogether different issue. This is another huge can of worms that I can go into on another email if you want.
The other questions that are common are the practical ones - ’Should I say anything to my gay friend?’ ‘Should I take part in movements like wearing purple to work?’ For the former, I generally advise not making their sexuality the main issue, because as I said, it’s not - it’s that attitude of rebellion against God. As for taking part in corporate movements, it’s a matter of understanding exactly and precisely what the purpose of these gestures is, and then making a decision about that.
Hope that helps a bit."
I was wondering if I missed any questions I should ask on the matter? What follow up/opinions would you have? And what questions, other than homosexuality, do you recommend asking to understand the christian point of view? Thanks :)
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Wow, that pastor is a greasy as a drunk pig wallowing in vaseline. He really did not answer anything but gave generalized views from the perspective of his church and parish.
I suggest you try to get his personal views instead of this generalized non-committal. My suggestions would be...
1) What do you think personally, independent of the church, on homosexuality?
2) Do you personally believe they should go to hell?
3) If you personally had such 'temptations", what would you do?
4) Do you agree that some passages of the bible should be ignored, such as Deuteronomy 21:18-21 about stoning children to death? If so, why make that exemption but not about homosexuality?
5) Do you believe that conversion therapy is effective or even moral?
6) If Hitler came back to God in repentance, does that mean he is in heaven?
Obviously these are answers representative of his church and parish, that's why he's a pastor, because he represents his church and parish. The answers are also representative of what I have been taught, obviously, since I'm a Christian and theres bound to be overlap.
The answers were not generalised and non-committal, they were pretty straightforward. His personal beliefs (which I doubt differ much) shouldn't matter since they don't represent anything.
Of course his opinions matter, he is the leader of a congregation.
John, you are playing the same game most religious types do, failing to take ownership of their thoughts and actions, and evading hard questions. Blame the devil, sin, or someone else, because I'm god's special snowflake.
Ownership of what thoughts and actions? For starters people tend to choose the denomination that fits their thoughts and actions, so there's no reason to suspect his answer does not represent his views. And if you are suspecting hypocrisy I don't see how you would be affected by it unless you are part of his congregation.
In summary, I don't think you know what you want to ask.
I want to know if the pastor can think for himself or is he just a mindless robot who regurgitates what the Vatican tells him what to say?
Do you not want a person who offers relevant and very important advice to be one who can actually think?
Perhaps thats the problem, he's a pastor not a priest. I was raised to bring my Bible to church every week and double check what the pastor was saying. There's nothing that protestants love more than defying authority, which you can't do if you're not thinking for yourself.
I view the role of the pastor to be shepherd-like in nature. Their job is to tend for the sheep. As such I'm more interested in how they apply their teachings, not the nuances of what they believe.
I love it when the religious people talk about the: shepard and SHEEP!
At least in a strange twisted way but in small way everyone involved is being honest.
Bleat bleat... SHHEEEEEeeeeeEEEP!
I don't get it, why would anyone call themselves sheep? Everyone knows the relationship between shepherd and sheep when we are talking the animals right? If the sheep are real lucky they will just have their "fur" harvested once in a while, less lucky if they are also used for milk or just straight up food. Sure the shepherd tends to his flock of sheep, but not typically out of compassion and best possible well being of their sheep, but only so they will "produce" more and have less losses.
Although the rare male that got to breed had it pretty damn good, at least until on the large industrial farms it is all done artificially instead. (Wow that has gotta suck!)
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@ Breezy
Careful John, you are straying in Mithraic territory there. There are quite a few scholars of the early roman church (on which your sect is based) who trace a solid connection between the rise of Christianity and the adoption then annexation of many existing faiths and rituals. Remember "paul" was very instrumental in Romanising the christian faith which included a lot of "sheep" symbolism from the cult of Mithra which was widespread throughout the Empire.. He, according to some, was born in a strongly Mithraic area.... The job completed by Constantine who decreed Jesus birthday be on the 25th December...coincidental with that of Mithra...The whole christian thing about sheep seems to be based on one verse in John...which we know was written by several individuals over a long period in a Roman dominated culure...but the whole thing about sheeps and shepherds and "lambs of god" didn't get completely mainstream until one of the popes in the 7th century CE(from memory) introduced it into the liturgy.
You might well be confronting your jesus on judgement day with him saying "WTF bro? What is all this shit about sheep, I much prefer goats, to hell with ya."
Who cares?
ʝօɦn 6IX ɮʀɛɛʐy,
"Who cares?"
Psalm 142:4 (GNT) = "When I look beside me, I see that there is no one to help me, no one to protect me. No one cares for me."
Old man shouts ...,
"You might well be confronting your jesus on judgement day with him saying "WTF bro? What is all this shit about sheep, I much prefer goats, to hell with ya.""
The 10th Commandment = "Do not boil a young goat in its mother's milk." Exodus 34:26.
Sheep
I rest my case.
@ David
Yup, Breezy don't like study it puts his amazing scholastic achievements to shade....
Of course his beliefs would align with the church's. After all, they're the ones that tell him how to think and feel and what opinions he should have.
Oh wow thanks :) I'll definitely ask those questions
Ask him why there are so many homosexuals in the bible...
King David
Ruth
The Gay Roman Guard
The little naked boy running from Jesus's bedchamber on the night of his arrest.
How many other Gay people are in the bible.
Sodom and Gamora was not destroyed for sexual misconduct. The Bible says specifically their sins were greed and not caring for the poor.
Miss AUS,
Here is my take on the LGBTQ thing:
Love is Love, regardless. Male = Female = HUMAN, regardless.
That pastor is no different than all the Religious Absolutists I have heard. In fact, he would be right at home in the Baptist Bible Belt section of North Carolina where I grew up. And here is a good question to ask him.
Since God and Jesus always condoned slavery, yet it was us lowly humans who abolished slavery, does that not mean that human morality is actually greater than God's morality? And stipulate s/he CANNOT use the "it was the context of the times" argument.
That is one question I always asked and got me an ass-whooping from the Pastor when I was a kid.
rmfr
Aw that's such a good question, no wonder the pastor was mad. Thank you :)
arakish,
"Since God and Jesus always condoned slavery, yet it was us lowly humans who abolished slavery, does that not mean that human morality is actually greater than God's morality? And stipulate s/he CANNOT use the "it was the context of the times" argument."
That is a weak question to ask a Bible thumper because, as you said, God and Jesus condoned slavery. And since they approved of it people sinned when they abolished slavery. According to the fairy tale people sin when they go against Jealous's expressed desires.
If slavery is abolished how can Isaiah 14:1-2 (CSB) be fulfilled? = "For the Lord will have compassion on Jacob and will choose Israel again. He will settle them on their own land. The resident alien will join them and be united with the house of Jacob. 2 The nations will escort Israel and bring it to its homeland. Then the house of Israel will possess them as male and female slaves in the Lord’s land. They will make captives of their captors and will rule over their oppressors."
You want to get people to freely admit that a behavior is wrong. Then once that happens you hit them with the question of why do they support a religion that requires such wrong behavior.
AUS-LGBT,
The answers you get depend on the way you phrase your questions.
If a person is a Christian who believes in the biblical fairy tale then the answers are obvious. Homosexuality is cited as a form of sexual immorality. Sexual immoral people won't get into the golden cube = Revelation 22:15 (CJB) = "Outside are the homosexuals, those involved with the occult and with drugs, the sexually immoral, murderers, idol-worshippers, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Remember the thousand carat diamond =
1 John 3:9 (KJV) = "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."
Does the Bible really say that all people who "sin" go to hell? Even Jesus went to hell. According to the fairy tale when you die you end up in the sea, death, or hell. But on Judgment Day everyone is resurrected, judged, and death and hell are tossed into the lake of fire along with the "bad" souls. So it seems that hell and the lake of fire are two very different things.
edit -typo
@AUS-LGBT
Well, I give him credit for trying! Obviously from my background (as far as my family is concerned), Judaism has a different take on these things than Christianity. Still, it was an interesting read. Ask him more and see what he says. I'd love to hear his thoughts on what the rabbis did :)
@AUS-LGBT
Well, I give him credit for trying! Obviously from my background (as far as my family is concerned), Judaism has a different take on these things than Christianity. Still, it was an interesting read. Ask him more and see what he says. I'd love to hear his thoughts on what the rabbis did :)
Sorry for posting that twice!
@AUS-LGBT & thread.
From a more macro point of view, ya gotta laugh at the whole setup this pastor/religion does:
Step 1: Sin is bad don't do it, follow "god's" commands.
Step 2: If you have sinned that is okay jesus died for our sins, just atone for the sins. (Most all of us have "sinned" at least a little.)
Step 3: But if you do not believe in god and do not go to church talk to religious leaders etc etc you are effed.
End result: Go to church every week, talk to religious leaders and keep announcing your faith in their particular god idea and all will be fine, even if you have sinned horribly. Only "real" punishment is if you do not believe in their particular sky fairy you get effed over after you die. Back to the whole: all your actual tangible results will happen after you die, conveniently an area that there cannot possibly be any actual evidence of.
How incredibly convenient is this little "loop" for the guy that passes out the collection plates at the church eh? I have said it before and I will say it again, organized religion is mankind's oldest and most refined con. So old and refined and passed down through generations even most of the people taking part in the con do not even realize they are doing a con.
All of which can be dismissed studying proper rebuttals to pascal's wager, (also why studied apologist never use that argument anymore.)
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Same sex is not meant to be. Mean arent supposed to sleep with men and women, women. Thats why sex toys were invented but it does more harm then good. God wouldnt say it is a sin if it was actually good for you.
Nice Josh - I didn't think it was possible to pack that much ignorance into a couple of poorly constructed sentences, but ships-ahoy, you've done it.
I got a good laugh from your response, until I realized there is actually a possibility you are not trolling and you are dead serious. Then I weep a little for the state of humanity.
Also, good luck finding a strait up, (pun intended?) non contradictory answer to "same sex is a sin" in which ever version of holy book you use. Seriously tell us which book of lies you believe in and someone here will within minutes show that "holy book" contradict itself and/or remain vague on the subject.
Also no one claims sex, (same sex or not) is actually "good for you." Sure feels good though!
Edit: also how I never noticed this before? "holy book" -holey book-. A book full of huge gaping logic/reasoning/basic common sense HOLES! What an apt name, gonna start calling them holey books!
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▮ Useful list on forum usage. A.R. Member since 2016. ▮
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@joshua
What objective evidence do you have that god is real?
Oh please, please be satire... Oh, for the sake of my faith in humanity, please, pretty please be satire... LOL, looks like Aus-LGBT’s trap has been sprung!
1. “Same sex is not meant to be.” I’m incredibly sick of refuting stupid arguments like this. For the last time, if that were the case, then how come studies have shown that homosexuality actually IS natural, as some members of many species have been observed mating with animals of the same sex. Oh, and get this through your thick head:people are BORN WITH A FIXED SEXUAL ORIENTATION.. Don’t believe me? Well, I’m heterosexual, and I’ll tell you this: No amount of me trying to convince myself that I like boys will actually make me gay. Why don’t you just flip the little straight-to-gay switch in your head, and show us all how it’s a “choice”?
2. “God wouldn’t say it was a sin if it was actually good for you.” Well first of all, your Wholly Buybull also says that there are no atheists “that doeth good.” Oh, you mean like how that immoral atheist Bill Gates donates millions to charity each year, thus already making a larger impact than millions of “thoughts and prayers”? And also, here are some other things that are “bad” according to the Buybull:
-Wearing clothing made from multiple fabrics (RIP literally everyone)
-Masturbation (RIP almost everyone; most people do it at least once in their lifetimes, sometimes without even realizing it)
-Eating pig meat (there goes bacon!)
-Playing with a pig’s skin (there goes football!)
-Working on Sundays (that homework ain’t gonna finish itself)
-Befriending or respecting non-believers
-And countless other victimless crimes your god doesn’t want us to do
And here are some things that are “permissible” in the Buybull:
-Selling your daughters for livestock
-PURE GOLD: Owning slaves (this is never condemned, so going by your logic, it’s “actually good for you”.)
-Stoning children to death for disobedience
-Stoning people to death for criticizing your religion
-Gouging out an eye if you gaze at someone
-And much, much more.
Re: Josh - "Same sex is not meant to be. Mean arent supposed to sleep with men and women, women. Thats why sex toys were invented but it does more harm then good. God wouldnt say it is a sin if it was actually good for you."
...*sniff-sniff*... *face scrunched in disgust*... Did somebody fart?... *gag*....
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