Hello, I’m Joe. I have recently come into the fold of Christianity. I am learning to be a philosopher by trade, and I want the world views of others to come into account when I talk with people. Though I am not an atheist now, I was up until recently. I want to learn from people who may be my senior and see what the world is like for an adult atheist in the world. Thank you.
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Okay what do you want to know? :)
Anything you’re willing to tell me! Whether that is a personal story of how atheism came to be for you, why it guides your life, or just what thought process differences you may see. I am here to learn. Thank you for replying.
Well you've already made a common mistake in thinking that atheism is anything more than lack of belief in gods. It has no guides, it has no agendas, it has no thought processes. It begins and ends with 'does not believe in gods'. I am an atheist for much the same reason you don't believe in leprechauns or fairies as you see no evidence for their existence.
The word atheist literally means 'does not believe in gods' and while there is no word specifically for not believing in things like leprechauns presumably if there were we'd almost all be 'a-leprechaunists' or something.
Ok, I can see your point in your statement. Atheist, meaning “without god” is quite a simple concept in just that brief point. You said of atheism “It begins and ends with 'does not believe in gods',” so if that is atheism’s alpha and omega, why are there so many books, speeches, proofs, defenses etc.? There must be something more.
Personally never read a book on atheism, maybe they are about individual deconversion stories or something??
Search me?
They seem to be more proofs than anything. Think of Dawkins’ “The God Delusion” for example. They are to atheists what Aquinas’ “Five proofs” are to Christians. They seem to act as a final straw in an argument.
Never read it, the book sounds like a critique or counter argument.
I doubt it's a proof because it's impossible to prove a negative. Doubt Dawkins would waste time trying to prove a negative, have you read this book? What's it about?
I would agree that the book is more of a counter argument. I use the word “proof” as a set of cohesive statements that form a logically correct argument, and you are right, it is just as impossible to prove a positive with regards to religion as it is a negative. That is simply the nature of this debate. That is also why I am here, to learn whatever I can. So thank you for that, as it did highlight an error in my usage.
Prove a negative? Technically, it is so improbable we just call it negative. However, I guarantee I can give a good shot.
How about this? Got this idea from Viced Rhino. At least watch his Channel Promo, it is hilarious, and fucking honest, unlike Absolutists.
Proverbs {6:16-19} These six things does the LORD hate: yes, seven are an abomination unto him: 1) a proud look, 2) a lying tongue, 3) hands that shed innocent blood, 4) a heart that devises wicked imaginations, 5) feet that be swift in running to mischief, 6) a false witness that speaks lies, 7) and he that sows discord among brethren.
1) Well, this is the one that is not in the Bible anywhere. I concede that God may not have “a proud look.” However, with persons like William Lane Craig, the Master of Filicide, overemphasizing his non-existent qualities, he probably does have a “proud look” now.
2) A Lying Tongue. Unfortunately, the entire Bible is a lie. But, specifically, try these:
A) 1 Kings {22:23} Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all your prophets, and the LORD has spoken evil concerning you.
B) 2 Chronicles {18:22} Now therefore, behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of your prophets, and the LORD has spoken evil against you. Interesting how the same sentence, word-for-word, is in two different places...
C) Jeremiah {4:10} Then I said, Lord GOD! surely you have greatly deceived the people and Jerusalem, saying, You shall have peace; whereas the sword reaches into the soul.
D) Jeremiah {20:7} O LORD, you have deceived me, and I was deceived: you are stronger than I, and have prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocks me.
E) Ezekiel {14:9} And if the prophet is deceived when he has spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel. First, he lies to the person, then says he will destroy him for lying.
F) 2 Thessalonians {2:11} And for this cause, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie. And this definitely applies to ALL Christians.
3) Hands that shed innocent blood. Boy, where in the Bible won’t you find this?
A) Genesis {7:21-22} And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth, and every man: all in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
B) Exodus {11:5} And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sits upon his throne, even the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts. God, the filicidal maniac.
C) 1 Samuel {15:3} Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
4) Heart that devises wicked imaginations. Again, where in the Bible is this not?
A) The whole entire books of both Exodus and Joshua (and others I ain't listing) = animal sacrifices, blood offerings, burnt offerings, human sacrifices, genocides, ethnic cleansings, rapes, enslavement, etc., etc., etc. Nothing but pure horror and evil.
5) Feet that are swift in running to mischief.
A) Psalms {2:12} Kiss the Son, unless he is angry, and you perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little.
B) Isaiah {45:7} I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
6) A false witness that speaks lies.
Hell, see #2 above...
7) He that sows discord among brethren, and some cannibalism.
A) Leviticus {26:28-29} Then I will walk contrary to you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And you shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall you eat.
B) Deuteronomy {28:53} And you shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and of your daughters, which the LORD your God has given you, in the siege, and in the straightness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee.
C) Matthew {10:34-38} Do not think that I have come to send peace on the Earth: I have come not to send peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man’s foes shall be the ones of his own household. He that loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that takes not his cross, and follows after me, is not worthy of me. And I find anyone unworthy if I am to love them more than mine own father and mother, mine own wife, and mine own children.
Thus, God is everything he hates and despises. Thus, God does not exist. And all this from a God who claims to be nothing but love. Yeah, right.
And even if this does not prove God does not exist, it does prove God is the most psychopathic and sociopathic monster ever to haunt humanity. And since you cannot have a God of pure love who is also a psychopathic and sociopathic monster, proof it does not exist.
rmfr
@Joe: Think of Dawkins’ “The God Delusion” for example.
"God Delusion" isn't about atheism. It's about religion and its history and role in the world. For an atheist, atheism isn't a puzzle at all. It's a default position of non-belief in something that is unproven and unprovable. No. The real puzzle for an atheist IMHO is religion. The question that we're always asking is how can sane, sensible adults believe this balderdash.
Atheism is the absence or lack of belief in A deity or deities.
An atheist therefore is someone who lacks belief in a deity or deities.
However just like people who don't collect stamps are not stamp collectors, this is not a term that defines them, but a term that addresses their position on a single claim.
The reason I don't believe a deity exists, as has been stated by others, is the same reason people normally disbelieve claims, there's not sufficient or objective evidence to support it.
A more salient question is why you think there is, what evidence have you seen that a deity exists?
In a world with no religion there would be no such books, speeches, defenses, ect. There is no 'proof' of atheism just as there is no 'proof' of 'a-leprechaunism'. It's not a position that requires proof as it is not a claim or a belief, it is a lack of belief, or non-acceptance of a claim.
You claim 'There is a god' and an atheist says 'I don't believe it'. A common misconception, there being a 8+ page thread by a person who couldn't accept it is that if you don't believe in a god then you "must" believe there is no god. This is wrong, as atheists do not say 'there is no god' but 'I do not believe in them'. There exists no evidence as of yet presented to indicate a god so therefore I don't believe in them.
The reason you see books, speeches, defenses, ect is because religion makes those necessary. A common meme on the internet for atheists is being an atheist means spending 90% of your time explaining things people should have learned in school and 10% of your time explaining what an atheist is.
Some atheists such as myself see many religions as harmful. While an atheist is not required to speak out against a religion they see as harmful, many atheists do. An example being Richard Dawkins if you want to use him is that he pointed out that some religions were never violent, some used to be violent, and some still are violent. Him being an atheist does not change the fact that he's correct about those things nor is him being an atheist what motivates him to say these facts but the fact that there is violence either past or present.
If Atheism is correct. Then what's death?
"If Atheism is correct. Then what's death?"
That's a bizarre non-sequitur, like asking "if stamp collecting is correct what's an appendectomy"?
Death is a clinical term, and it has nothing whatsoever to with atheism. What a bizarre question. How many physical brains can you demonstrate evidence to show survived their own death? How many humans can evidence that exist without a living physical brain?
Ok, I can see your point in your statement. Atheist, meaning “without god” is quite a simple concept in just that brief point. You said of atheism “It begins and ends with 'does not believe in gods',” so if that is atheism’s alpha and omega, why are there so many books, speeches, proofs, defenses etc.? There must be something more.
The world is the same for atheists and non atheists.
If you just want to know how people came to be atheists I would search the bazillion atheist testimonial threads on the internet.
I totally agree. I have read some of them, and I understood what I read, and I have been in your shoes. But I am curious about what I must have missed. If there is a righ5 and wrong, why is it possible for minds to change?
Why is it possible for minds to change???
Is that a serious question?
Minds are are clearly capable of change, how is that not self explanatory?
It is serious, and not meant tongue in cheek, but what “flips the switch” if you will? Is it science, or philosophy, tragedy, personal gain?
Could be any of those things or other reasons or just feels.
You would have to ask a specific atheist.
Most here have told their story, I guess someone might repeat it for you if you asked them directly.
"It is serious, and not meant tongue in cheek, but what “flips the switch” if you will? Is it science, or philosophy, tragedy, personal gain?"
Why do you normally disbelieve claims? I imagine atheists are the same, but they don't single a deity or deities out for special pleading. Why do you believe any deities exists?
Hey Joe........Just wanted to say "hey Joe" to someone for years, thanx.
I am more so Gnostic than Atheist - I believe in Universal Energy, rather than a all powerful singular deity.
I was baptized a Catholic, but found too many flaws and contradictions within the texts, things like:
I am the One True God - I am Alpha and Omega, Omnipotent and for ever. YET his commandments is " thou shall have no other gods before me, for I am a jealous God". How can the Alpha-Omega of All be jealous of anything he created? Therefore that alone makes me doubt the Christianised version of Universal Energy. Also if he is all seeing, why did he give us free will, then punish us for not choosing "his ways". Baffles me, honestly. Why did he make Lilith first ( Torah), then made Adam, and then made Eve as Lilith was not interested in Adam. Herm, again, that is not the action of a singular all, rather a creator with flaws and mistakes. OR he did it on purpose, caused us to be children of Incest ( Adam & Eve, two males, who did the males have sex with if not Eve ?). Add to that the ideas that religion stops individual growth as one must remain "within the fences of faith", and there are some of my reasons to be anti religion, but pro spiritual perceptions. GNOSTIC means if I experience personal eventys, I can choose to place import unto them. But I do not preach, or try to convince others, it is a inner self knowledge, and my foundation is still on Experiences, not just " I believe so I'll be an ostrich about facts". I am curious, which church are you drawn to, how do you explain the complex contradictions within the texts, and what event showed you that to you "God" exists and is real in your perception.? ( Asking neutrally, as any faith is merely perceptions we place upon this experience of life.)
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@Orignal Post /Joe
Sure, talk away, most atheist, myself included, that frequent these boards like talking and debating ;)
Conversation starter:
I, at fortunately: a young age, realized to get ahead in life, you weigh available solid information like evidence, and make the best decision you can based on the information available. The information that there is no god, and most certainly that there is no god like the organized religions depict is extremely compelling. After spending many hours looking, discussing and researching, the whole "there is no god" is something I feel extremely confident in that is the correct assumption. Everything I have read and learned on the subject supports the conclusion that there is no god.
Knowing there is no god confers some large advantages, like knowing you have only one short life, so live in the present, enjoy life instead of sitting around and trying to follow some "rules" to get into heaven.
@OP
Hello Joe, I am Richard (or Rick, or Ricky, or Rich, or Ritchie) — I'll answer to any of those five.
Well, I ain't gonna hold that against you.
My Fourth Commandment: You shall respect the right of ALL persons to believe whatsoever they wish to believe; even if contradictory to your beliefs. You may discuss beliefs; however, forcing your beliefs onto others is condemnable.
Although I may disagree with your beliefs, I respect your right to have them. Although I may respect your right to have whatsoever beliefs you wish to have does not mean I respect those beliefs.
Basically, I respect your right to have your beliefs, but that does not mean I have to respect the beliefs themselves. It also does not mean I am going to force anything I hold dear onto you. For me, that is just wrong. Let people believe whatsoever they wish to believe, respect their right to have those believes, but you do not have to agree with those beliefs.
Thus, ask whatever questions you want. I shall endeavor to answer in a civil manner.
At least you seem to be starting with an open mind (willingness to learn). That is a trait most Christians do not have. I am glad to see that.
As I said, your right is to believe whatsoever you wish to believe.
Again, I congratulate you on your willingness to learn. It is so refreshing to see that in a Christian.
What makes you think you can talk to us? Just kidding. Of course you can talk to any Atheist you wish. I for one am allows willing to discuss my philosophies and knowledge. However, I must warn you that there are some Atheists who do not deserve to be called human. There are some atheists (Terminal Dogma for one) who are completely irrational and, what is that adage?, "off their rocker."
You are most welcome.
And from a later response...
I am sending this response in a PM (provided your forum names match). It is a much too long story. I do not feel it is appropriate to fill several pages of text into one post.
Last, but hardly the least.
Well Come! I hope you feel welcome and hang around.
rmfr
@Arakish Re: "I must warn you that there are some Atheists who do not deserve to be called human."
Hey! I heard that, you overgrown bush! Just because I'm a Person of Alloy doesn't mean I don't have feelings....*sob sob sniff*... Have I not arms and legs and hydraulic pumps? Do I not require fuel and lubrication to sustain me? If you strike me, do I not dent? If you puncture me, do I not leak oil?....*wiping tears from eyes*.... Oh, the humanity!
@Joe
Hey, Joe! (Where ya goin' with that gun in your hand?) Sorry. Couldn't resist. lol. Anyway, welcome to the AR. A bit pressed for time at the moment, but just wanted to say "Howdy" real quick and let you know I'd be happy to chat with you. I always enjoy a good discussion. If you think of any questions for me, ask away. I'll get back with you as soon as I can. Meanwhile, look around the site a bit and make yourself at home. It can be a fun place here.
Tin-Man:
Guess I should have clarified better. What I meant was that some do not deserve to be included within the human family. You, regardless of all your dents, bangs, oil, lubes, leaks, fuel, and occassional lost parts and mechanical failures (;-P), I include within the human family simply because you are "human and humane" in your behavior and humanity. Much like this tree can also be included.
What I was referring to was the opposite end of the spectrum from the William Lane Craig's. WLC is definitely one I would not call a human being. I do not know what I would call him, but he ain't human. My pet cat has more humanity than that low-life thing. See, I cannot even call him a human any more, rather calling him a "thing." Hell, the wicked and evil Hath'arnd in my novel have more humanity. And they ain't even human.
rmfr
Hi Joe: Your question seems to be a simple one. Why are there so many books and argument about this "Atheism thing?" It really isn't much of a mystery.
For over 6000 year the religions of the West have been attempting to prove the existence of God or Gods. There are thousands of arguments for the existence of god. When you see "Atheist arguments" as you call them, you are not seeing arguments by atheists to disprove the existence of god or gods. What you are seeing is responses to Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.... "APOLOGETICS." (Justifications for the existence of God.)
If you really want to get a benefit from you inquiry on this site, you might try starting a thread about what you believe and why. Being new to Christianity you might share what it is that attracted you. What is the best reason for believing in a God and why your god and not one of the other 50,000 gods being asserted as true today. Even the Christian faith has over 30.000 different interpretations of God. Which one do you think is real and why?
Cog!!! There you are! Was gettin' worried about you. Apparently you don't check your Inbox very often.
Final Exams and a Summer session starting keep me busy with grading and organizing/ Yes. I have not checked my mail. I will do it now.
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