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WWII.
It was a war that had to be fought. Especially the European Theatre.
Not one damned war in the Bible had to be fought. They were all dictated by a tyrannical dictator that is jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving, control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
rmfr
Edit: Sorry. I apologize. I did such a quick copy and paste, I forgot to attribute most of this post to Richard Dawkins. Sorry about that.
And I would agree with you on WW2.
Well, if you were right that not one damned war fought in the Bible had to be fought, then you’d be right, it was immoral. What if your assumption was wrong, however? What if the Canaanites were in fact doing something morally reprehensible and was simply not mentioned in the Bible? Could that be a possibility?
Be a possibility? Hell NO! Because the writers of the Bible would have made damned sure to include those reprehensible acts just so they could more easily defend their actions.
Any war in my book is reprehensible. Have you ever seen what it does to the land, the people? Did you know there are still whole towns that have not been rebuilt since World War Two? And how long ago was that? Let's see, it ended in 1945; it is now 2018, carry the..., ALMOST ¾ of a century! And you can still see those wasted towns and fields today. Hell, you can still visit and see the aftermath of The Great Tunguska Explosion. And it happened 110 years ago. Even though new forest has grown back, you can still see the old forest splayed out from a central point. My wife and I visited there in 1988 on its 80th anniversary.
The Tunguska event was an explosion that occurred at 60 degrees 55' N (60.917°N) 101 degrees 57' E (101.95°E), near the Podkamennaya (Under Rock) Tunguska River, in what is now Evenk Autonomous Okrug, at 7:17 AM on June 30, 1908. The event is sometimes referred to as the great Siberian explosion (Science Daily).
rmfr
Edit: Current Google Earth Pro image capture of the Tunguska Site: https://i.imgur.com/USVjo14.jpg
I'm sorry but didn't you just say that WW2 was a war that had to be fought? And now you're saying that any war is reprehensible?
I mean, I get it. War is a horrible horrible thing. But as good people of this world, we have a duty to protect it from the dangerous people of this world and sometimes (not all the time) war is the only option that's able to do that.
I'm still trying to find common ground with you on war in general. I thought we had already established that some wars have to be fought.
I cannot understand how you Absolutists just cannot comprehend anything.
Yes, ALL war is reprehensible. Just because I view ALL wars as reprehensible does not mean I do not have enough compassion and comprehension to know that some wars must be fought. As said WWII was a war that had to be fought, especially to end the threat of Hitler and the Third Reich. If we had not stopped the Nazis, what would the world be like today? Would the Nazis had been the first to invent nuclear warheads? And would they have bombarded the world into submission? Thankfully, we do not have to worry about such.
In all the wars since the end of WWII, not a damned one them had to be fought. Yes, 911 was a horrific attack on the US. And the US just had to do something about it. However, is revenge a good reason to invade another sovereign nation?
The only true threat the world now suffers is in the hands of the Absolutists. The only true enemy of humanity today is religion. Actually, religion has been humanity's worst enemy since its very first inception probably about 150,000 years ago. Perhaps even further back in history.
Today, it is us Rationalists who have risen up to stand against the foolishness, the retarded beliefs, the imaginative figments, the fantastical lies that is religion. Religion holds no truth. Religion is incapable of truth.
Enough. I am going to start to rant...
rmfr
JoC,
Good interpretation means resisting the urge to inject speculation. Archaeologists know that the early Hebrews were little more than another variety of the Canaanites and, allowing for the biased nature of the ancient author, these wars look very much like the typical wars of Bronze Age peoples in the Middle East. Finding a moral thread in them, given their vicious nature, would be a real challenge!
@JoC, if your own side is carrying out genocide on all living things, you would never be justified to go to war, in my view.
So the most morally reprehensible thing you find in the Bible is the flood? Something that apart from religious belief is just a natural phenomenon that may or may not have happened ... is morally reprehensible?
Wait, did you just say the flood described in the bible was a natural event? And may not have happened? No wrathful god at all? Which version of the bible did you get that from?
@Logic Re: A questionable flood
Dammit! You beat me to it! I caught that from JoC, too, but I was tied up with another post. It is incredibly amusing to me how he is suddenly playing the "both sides of the fence" game. What I also loved is the comment he made about (paraphrasing a bit here), "But what if god did certain horrible things for very good reasons we don't know about that are not stated in the bible?" I almost got whiplash doing a double-take on that one! LOL
You're paraphrasing is actually quite off, my friend. Can we respect my wishes though and focus on just the one topic brought up before the flood was brought up? I believe you brought up the war against the Canaanites?
FYI: We have been focusing on one topic. The repugnance of the Bible and the God in it.
rmfr
I know you were directing this to someone else, but like a public conversation...
Hell NO!
The most reprehensible thing I find in the Bible is the Bible.
rmfr
Like my point earlier in this thread, you say that and I respect that. But you've got to admit that if you had to rank all the reprehensible things in the Bible, there's got to be that one that's a cut above the rest. That one that's just obviously wrong that even Jews and Christians would agree with you. Which is why I chose to respond to Tinman's suggestion that the war that God commanded the Israelites to go against the Canaanites would be the winner.
That particular story was the one that would either make or break my Christianity - I bought a book which claimed to answer the Bible's difficult passages and told myself that if that story wasn't answered to my satisfaction, I would surely leave Christianity. When I did read the book, it did answer my concerns to my satisfaction as well as so many others. As a result, I'm still very much a Christian.
So, if you're simply going to say that, "The most reprehensible thing I find in the Bible is the Bible," I'm sorry but we cannot find common ground on this topic.
As I said. I gave you the true answer. Maybe reword it?
The entire Bible is the most reprehensible thing in the Bible. The entire Bible is the one that is a cut above all other stories in the Bible. What is it you are incapable of understanding?
Furthermore, even though we are discussing the Bible, what I have said also goes for ALL other religious texts.
Since you are an Absolutist, you shall never be able to figure that out since all Absolutists always follow the Great Command (Reasonable Faith: Christian Truth and Apologetics by William Lane Craig, 1994):
This alone tells me that all Absolutists have deluded themselves with their fantastical imaginations. And until that delusion can be broken, you shall forever be blinded to the True Truth of Reality.
rmfr
"if you had to rank all the reprehensible things in the Bible, there's got to be that one that's a cut above the rest."
Given how sadistic and cruel the deity of the bible is that's a tall order. I'm not sure how I could morally rank things like genocide, ethnic cleansing, rapine, and sex trafficking prisoners of war, and of course slavery, all of which are enthusiastically endorsed by that deity. Then there are the direct actions of that deity of course. Genocide needs no categorising in any moral sense as far as I can see, especially when conducted by an angry vengeful deity on it's hapless creation, and that deity is being touted as perfectly merciful.
However the sadistic and barbaric torture and murder of a new born baby is as good an example of immoral barbarity as anyone could wish for. In the bible that deity is said to have been so angered by king David's adulterous affair and murder of the husband of his amorous intentions, that he (deity) smites the illegitimate baby conceived by that affair, and that the baby as a result is gravely ill for 7 days before it eventually succumbs and dies.
One assumes a diety for which anything is possible could have dispatched either of the adulterers, or at least have made the babies death painless and instantaneous. The fact it is claimed to have done neither, shows a warped sadistically malevolent set of "morals" by any objective standard.
I find the argument from evil, and suffering in particular very compelling when used against the notion of a benevolent deity, but that story is a slam dunk as it can't be rationalised away with guff about a fallen world, because it is evil and suffering caused directly by the deity in question, complete with mens rea.
"So, if you're simply going to say that, "The most reprehensible thing I find in the Bible is the Bible," I'm sorry but we cannot find common ground on this topic."
Do you think torture is ever morally acceptable? How about torture that never ends? How about torture that never ends after you die, because you failed to notice which deity of the thousands imagined was real? You should bear in mind it took "gentle Jesus meek and mild" to come up with this barbaric notion.
Re: Sheldon - "In the bible that deity is said to have been so angered by king David's adulterous affair and murder of the husband of his amorous intentions, that he (deity) smites the illegitimate baby conceived by that affair, and that the baby as a result is gravely ill for 7 days before it eventually succumbs and dies."
Step aside, JoC! I'll handle this one for you. Since Sheldon keeps bringing this up, it seems apparent he has been having difficulty in understanding your explanations to it. Goodness knows you tried and have given it a grand effort. For whatever reason(s), though, poor Sheldon simply cannot grasp the lesson to be learned from that story. Therefore, if you don't mind, I would like to try to explain the importance of this particular story to him in a manner he might be able to understand. I know many theists love using the parent/child analogy when describing the relationship between god and humans. It naturally allows people to more easily relate to the lesson(s) being taught. Also, the stories from the bible are about ancient people and cultures that are vastly different from modern day society. Well, as may be expected, most people of today might find it difficult to relate to some of the stories. With that in mind, I would like to explain the King David story to Sheldon using the parent/child analogy with something of a "modern-day" upgrade....
Okay, Sheldon, please pay attention. Remember, this is for your own good....
Pretend you have a son. Naturally, you love your little boy and care about him more than anything else in life. And let's say for your son's fifth birthday you get him a cute and cuddly puppy, because he has been asking you for one for several weeks. Of course, he is absolutely thrilled with his gift, and over the course of two or three months the boy and the puppy develop a special bond. That puppy is your son's new best friend, and he loves that puppy more than anything.
So, late one afternoon your son sneaks into the kitchen to snag a cookie or two out of the cookie jar for him and his pup. You happen to walk into the kitchen at just the right moment and catch him "with his hand in the cookie jar." And because he is startled by your unexpected appearance, he removes his hand from the jar quickly, such that it causes the cookie jar to fall to the floor and break. And... you.... are...ANGRY! One, because he knows it is a very strict rule that he is not to have any cookies before supper. And, two, because that was a very expensive cookie jar. Well, obviously, your son definitely deserves to be punished for disobeying your rules and for damaging something expensive through his carelessness.
Therefore, you immediately head outside and get the puppy and start beating it severely in front of your son. Then you throw the puppy in a closet and slam the door, while your son stands there crying and begging you to not hurt the puppy anymore. But for the next few days, you go to the closet two or three times a day to beat the puppy, and you make your son watch as you do so. And your son is constantly begging and pleading with you all day every day to stop hurting the puppy. Your son even begs you to spank or ground or punish HIM in any way you choose instead of you beating his puppy. Nevertheless, being the wise and loving parent that you are, you absolutely LOVE your son, and you know it is your responsibility to teach your son a very valuable lesson he will never forget. After about seven days, the puppy finally dies.
Now, by golly, if THAT is not a sound a proper lesson in the consequences of not following the rules, then I don't know what is. I can pretty much guarantee you that the ungrateful little brat will definitely think twice before ever trying to sneak a cookie before supper again. Thus endeth the lesson... (Umph!....*gag*....*hand over mouth really quick*... Oh, excuse me. Just threw up in my mouth a little bit.)
Okay, JoC, there you go. Just between you and me, if Sheldon is unable to wrap his mind around that concept this time, then I'm afraid you may just have to consider him a lost cause. Cheer up, though, ol' buddy. It wasn't because you didn't try, at least. Besides, you can always comfort yourself with the knowledge there are thousands of others out there who happily accept that story as a most uplifting and inspirational example of god's love and mercy.
No, the most morally reprehensible thing I find in the bible is the promised torture of non-Christians.
The Flood was also morally reprehensible, and the god of the bible claimed it was morally just.
@JoC Re: "Okay. So can we look into context as to where this came from?"
BINGO! I nailed it! Even when I was typing that post I was saying to myself that the very first excuse/"defense" to come up would be, "CONTEXT!" lmao...... Dang, I must be some sort of prophet. Oh, speaking of "context", just a little something of a trivia side note here. Has anybody ever noticed what happens when you break down the word?... Con (deceiving/negative).... Text (words/message). Things that make you go, "Hmmmmm...." Anyway, just a little something that popped into my head last night. But I digress...
So, allow me to repeat, I am not a "bible scholar", not by any stretch of the imagination. And to be perfectly honest, that example I gave was totally random. I simply Googled "God orders mass killings in the bible", and the story from 1 Samuel 15 is the first thing that popped up. Meaning I did not choose that particular story for any particular reason. Like I said, it is simply one of many dozens of such stories in the bible where god does - and orders others to do - some ridiculously bad shit. Basically, I was just being lazy and didn't really bother looking for any other stories. Too bad, in a way, because the story I used isn't even one of the best. I mean, after reviewing it a bit, technically, it could be said that god himself did not directly give the order to Saul. Instead, he actually relayed it through Samuel. Although, when you think about it, that actually makes things even worse in some ways....*scratching chin*... Eh, nevertheless... *waving hand in dismissal*....
Re; "Is there any reason that would justify waging war on another nation? This idea of a "just war"."
For starters, allow me to say that I truly hate wars. I have been deployed to combat zones three times during my time in the military, and I have seen up close and personal exactly what war does to a country and its people. To put it mildly, it is totally devastating. That being said, I also recognize that there are times/reasons when war is necessary. However, wars in general are beside the point I was trying to make, as you obviously missed. (Probably you overlooked it on purpose, but I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt for the moment.) If you recall, you had made the statement, "Simply recording something doesn't mean it was taught as correct." The fact the example I used just happened to be about war is quite irrelevant, as I could have used any number of other stories that were not related to war to illustrate the same point. So, as you said, let's try not to stray too far off, shall we?
Re; "Would it be justified for one nation to wage war on another for morally abhorrent things being perpetrated by another nation? Examples would be slavery, genocide, or infanticide."
Oh, man! Not joking, I almost fell out of my chair laughing so hard when I first read that. THAT is a good one! *chuckle* Wow oh wow.... Times like these I really wish I was better at pulling up bible verse links and such to post. Uh, hold on a sec....
...*calling out to AR site*... Hey! Anybody here able to post a compiled list of bible verses where god condones slavery and where he commits - and orders others to commit - genocide and infanticide? I know it's been done on here a few times before, but I don't remember which threads. Thanks, everybody! Oh! And it does not have to be ALL of them, of course. Wouldn't want to unnecessarily take up an entire page on this thread with only that....... *we now return to our original post still in progress*....
Pardon that... Uh, so where was I?... Oh, yes, would it be justified to wage war to combat such things as slavery, genocide, and infanticide? You are damn skippy it would be justified, in my personal opinion. Where do I sign up? And if I may make a suggestion, I think we should all use iron chariots during our attacks, because it is shown in the bible that god cannot defeat them. So, just out of curiosity, are you like some sort of higher leader in the war against god, or are you just maybe a recruiter?
@ Tin Man
You mean someting like this bro'?
Slavemonger: Slave
Leviticus 25:44–46
Exodus 21:20–21
Judges 1:28,30,35
Exodus 20:9–10
Exodus 21:26–27
Exodus 21:2–11
Exodus 20:17
Not forgetting good old :Leviticus 19:20-22
and Child Murder? Oohhh...
Infanticidal - the act of killing an infant; the practice of killing newborn infants; a person who kills infants.
Isaiah 13:18
Hosea 13:16
1 Samuel 15:2–3
1 Samuel 22:19
Psalm 137:8–9
Isaiah 13:11–18
Numbers 31:17
Jeremiah 13:14
Deuteronomy 13:6–11
Jeremiah 19:3–9
Deuteronomy 28:53
Deuteronomy 3:3–6
Deuteronomy 2:31–34
Hosea 9:11–16
Ezekiel 9:4–6
2 Kings 2:23–24
Exodus 12:29
Leviticus 26:21–22
2 Samuel 12:13–18
I wont go into the verses that show "god's" misogyny, or all the plagues he slapped around, or all the genocides he ordered or foreskins he requested, but if you want them....OH...and all in perfect "context" *falls about laughing at the old "context" chestnut* Bloody Hell Joc I would have thought you had been slapped hard enough on these forums not try that BS on us...LMFAO....
@Old Man
Si! Exactly like that! Gracias, mi Amigo!
@ Tin Man
Bless your clanking buttons, I didn't compile all these but here's the genocide aka ethnic cleansing verses, where our old YHWH gets a stiffy over killing/expelling/murdering other peoples he dont like. There's A LOT (see what I did there?) of these...
Samuel 15:3
Deuteronomy 7:1–2
Deuteronomy 12:2–3
Numbers 33:50–53
Exodus 34:11–13
Exodus 23:23–24,33
Deuteronomy 7:21–25
Nehemiah 13:1–3
Numbers 21:2–3
Joshua 11:21–22
Numbers 31:9–10
Jeremiah 49:2
Joshua 8:28
Deuteronomy 13:12–16
Ezekiel 6:13–14
Leviticus 26:30–31
Judges 2:2
2 Chronicles 14:2–5
2 Chronicles 34:1–7
Isaiah 34:5–7
Lamentations 2:17–22
Exodus 32:27–29
2 Chronicles 28:9
Deuteronomy 17:12
Exodus 21:15
Leviticus 20:10
2 Chronicles 15:13
Leviticus 21:9
Deuteronomy 18:20
Numbers 1:51
Exodus 22:20
Leviticus 26:21–22
Deuteronomy 22:20–21
Leviticus 24:13–16
2 Kings 19:35
Esther 9:5–6
Deuteronomy 13:12–16
Esther 9:13–17
1 Kings 18:39–40
Jeremiah 50:18–27
Ezekiel 35:7–8
Ezekiel 9:4–6
Hosea 13:4–9
Ezekiel 5:11–16
Numbers 25:4–5
Jeremiah 51:20–23
By the time you have read all of these you should be as sick to your stomach as I was...but oh, wait its all in the fucking "context" right? Surprised it isn't a metaphor or an allegory or whatever the buzzword is for excusing such crimes against humanity. .
As Redd said in that prison movie:
"Ain't that the God Damned truth."
And you are right Old Man, even with all the decades I have had to harden my stomach, the Bible and the Qu'ran are the only books I cannot read without getting so nauseated... Glad I have that prescription for ondansetron (a potent anti-nausea medicine). Especially when I got to look up a verse or two to slap a theist with.
rmfr
Thanks for this old man. However, as I've stated earlier in this thread, it might be prudent for us to pick just one - the one thing that cuts above every other reprehensible thing in the Bible and we can have a conversation from there. My thinking being, if the worst thing can be proven to not be so reprehensible, maybe you could be wrong about everything else. Is that a fair assumption to go by?
So again, pick one and we can take it from there.
@JoC Re: "....it might be prudent for us to pick just one - the one thing that cuts above every other reprehensible thing in the Bible and we can have a conversation from there."
Hmmmm.... Okay, soooo..... Call me crazy, but I cannot help but think that sounds pretty much exactly like this....
*standing over an open septic tank*.... Hey, Old Man! Jump down into that septic tank and look around until you find what you think is the absolute nastiest and worst smelling turd in there. Then bring it up and we can disect it and determine if it is really as bad as it seems. And if it is not all that bad, then it must mean we are wrong about how nasty and smelly all the other turds are.
And here I thought that was what I was saying, in what 11 words...
However, I love your analogy much better. Thanks for that good laugh.
rmfr
And as I said earlier:
The entire Bible is the most reprehensible thing in the Bible.
rmfr
The Bible is not in the Bible; rather, the Bible is the Bible, just as the set of all counting numbers is the set of all counting numbers and does not contain itself.
@Calhais Re: "The Bible is not in the Bible; rather, the Bible is the Bible..."
Semantics, dude. Okay, if it makes you feel any better, how about this? "The bible is the most reprehensible thing ABOUT the bible." There. Better?....*rolling eyes*....
Hope you don't mind, Arakish. Once again it seems to be the forest and trees.
@ Tin-Man
Actually, maybe it is just my tree.
rmfr
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