The Illusion of Human Intelligence

50 posts / 0 new

Tue, 12/11/2018 - 10:46

The_Chameleon

These predictive algorithms and prebaked calculation systems, which are the product of evolutionary processes, kick in automatically in response to sensory stimuli. The end result of this processing is sent to our motor cortex to be acted upon but before it gets there it is perceived as a conscious decision. This perception however assumes that a conscious choice was the initiator of these processes, not an after effect. If the step of conscious awareness was skipped then would we behave any differently apart from not having a sense of mindfulness?

In other words, could it be that what we have is highly evolved instincts masquerading as free will?

Tue, 12/11/2018 - 11:11

#33

Meepwned

Perhaps we do only have

Perhaps we do only have highly evolved instincts masquerading as free will. Now, where can we reasonably stuff a god into that?

OH OOH OOOH OH! I know! Nowhere.

Tue, 12/11/2018 - 11:15

(Reply to #33) #34

Blue Grey Brain

Perhaps we do only have

Perhaps we do only have highly evolved instincts masquerading as free will. Now, where can we reasonably stuff a god into that?

OH OOH OOOH OH! I know! Nowhere.

Agreed..

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 04:38

(Reply to #34) #35

The_Chameleon

You consider yourself an

You consider yourself an intelligent person capable of making intelligent choices. When you look back at your proudest intellectual or artistic accomplishments, you consider them to have been the product of choices made by free will. If in fact they were the end product of natural processes happening on a subconscious level then how "natural" can these processes be? If what you considered to be "intelligence" when you attributed it to your conscious self was in fact the product of evolutionary processes happening in the background and not anything you consciously initiated then these processes, collectively, must therefore be the intelligence, not you. Hmm... intelligent forces acting in the background to control human behavior, acting outside of the realm of human will. Sounds pretty godlike to me.

If you were not consciously aware of the choices these processes made for you and intuitively laid claim to then you would manifest the intelligent will of these processes purely on instinct without any sense of mindfulness about them. If you're not pulling your own strings (as you admit may be the case) then who is?

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 05:02

#36

arakish

Extrapolator: "If you're not

Extrapolator: "If you're not pulling your own strings (as you admit may be the case) then who is?

No one. I ain't got any strings. My decisions are mine alone derived from evidence.

"natural selection will ultimately bring about whatever, of necessity, needs to exist."

Please provide objective hard empirical evidence that anything "needs to exist."

rmfr

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 05:46

(Reply to #36) #37

The_Chameleon

"Perhaps we do only have

"Perhaps we do only have highly evolved instincts masquerading as free will. Now, where can we reasonably stuff a god into that?"

If your free will is simply an illusion of conscious self-determination generated only after background processes have made your choices on your behalf, then whatever you thought about "your" intelligence is true for those processes and not you because there is no you in the self-deterministic sense. You're in the proverbial passenger seat of your own life and even what you think as you look out the window is chosen for you without your prior knowledge or consent. It just seems like you're in control. Your ego, your sense of self is built on a lie.

Now to the attempt at misdirection, I'll bite. For something to be wet a liquid "out of necessity, needs to exist".

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 06:29

(Reply to #37) #38

arakish

@ Extrapolator

And what the hell does this woo woo have to do with my request for OBJECTIVE HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE for the "needs to exist?"

And what the hell does someone else's quote have to do with replying to my request:

"Perhaps we do only have highly evolved instincts masquerading as free will. Now, where can we reasonably stuff a god into that?"

And your bullshit woo woo has not disproven this:

Extrapolator: "If you're not pulling your own strings (as you admit may be the case) then who is?

Arakish: No one. I ain't got any strings. My decisions are mine alone derived from evidence.

rmfr

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 05:07

#39

Randomhero1982

The naturalistic view of the

The naturalistic view of the universe is that all things came to be as a result of natural laws at work

Nope, Naturalism is the philosophical belief that everything arises from natural properties and causes, and supernatural or spiritual explanations are excluded or discounted.

As of yet, there is nothing within the cosmos that doesn't follow a natural causal link.

And still, i challenge anyone to evidence a supernatural causal link from a natural phenomena.

According to this view, there is no need for a creator god

It is not that there is no need for a god, it is that there is no causal link from any naturally occurring phenomena that can provide a shred of evidence.

natural selection will ultimately bring about whatever, of necessity, needs to exist

This really just isolates the debate to what happens on Earth, Naturalism is all encompassing.. including the entirety of the cosmos.

It configured the solar system as needed to support life on Earth

Nope, natural selection is just the differential survival and reproduction of individuals due to differences in phenotype.

....

And the rest descend into a mishmash of bollocks...

Nice read though.

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 06:53

(Reply to #39) #40

The_Chameleon

"And the rest descend into a

"And the rest descend into a mishmash of bollocks...

Nice read though."

Skipping over the main point doesn't invalidate it. I've made a logical, fact based argument suggesting that human free will may in fact be an illusion. If this is true then what we characterize as human intelligence results from processes that happen apart from and prior to the invalid perception of human will. The evolutionary processes that programmed and drive our now highly "evolved" instincts are in fact the true sources of this intelligence and therefore these evolutionary processes are cannot be considered "natural".

Cogito, ergo sum. I think, therefore I am. But if all my thinking is done ahead of time by subconscious evolutionary processes, then am I really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4Oyi1T-HmU

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 07:17

(Reply to #40) #41

Randomhero1982

Well considering your opening

Well considering your opening gambit incorrectly described naturalism and the naturalistic world view... coupled with the wrongly held belief that natural selection configured the solar system as needed to support life on Earth... and given that the work of Libet, Soon and Haynes hasn't been proven(it may be the case as you put it, but it may not be the case in regards to the after effects of subconscious....etc....) that underpins your argument isn't scientifically proven...

Its hardly fact based...

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 07:12

#42

arakish

@ Extrapolator

Experiments by Libet, Soon, Haynes and others have demonstrated that what is perceived by an individual as free will may well be an after effect of a subconscious decision having already been made. If indeed this is the case, then it would reasonably follow that free will is an illusion, as is all that is born of conscious choice. Your sense of personal identity and conscious awareness, and your intelligence are also therefore illusions. All of these things are the product of natural laws acting upon atoms in your brain. The illusion of consciousness is tricking itself into believing it actually exists when in fact it does not.

100% hearsay. Not admissible as evidence. Links please.

To go still further, one can assume that since natural laws acting on chemicals and energies ultimately resulted not only in the formation of human beings, but also directly predetermined every choice they have collectively ever made through the history of mankind. That which by human standards has met the criteria for intelligence when we applied it to ourselves, actually belongs to the collective product of natural selection driven by natural laws. Every scientific revelation, every great work of art, every book and song ever written and monument ever built was predetermined by natural laws at work. Yes, the collective sum of all natural law is an intelligence unto itself. I call this entity The Puppetmaster. He is the naturalistic god. And your will, intelligence, conscious awareness, and sense of personal identity (collectively what some might call your "soul") belong to him. You may rebel against this idea, or you may accept it, depending on which choice The Puppetmaster has predetermined for you.

And this describes ONLY how we got to be where we are currently. It says nothing about how we think or how our thoughts are already predetermined. We still think for ourselves. We make choices based solely upon evidence of our environmental surroundings and needs. Some do it for their wants also.

However, you have NOT supplied a logical, fact based argument suggesting that human free will may in fact be an illusion. Where are the facts? Where is the evidence?

The Five Razors are applied:
Again, the Five Razors:

Sagan's Razor: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Hitchens's Razor: What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Arakish's Razor: NO EVIDENCE = NO EXISTENCE.
Xenoview's Razor: Objective claims requires objective evidence.
Tin-Man's Butter Knife: Any ridiculous nonsense presented will be countered with opposing ridiculous nonsense of an equal or greater amount.

Cognostic's Shovel: When someone starts slinging bullshit at you, get a shovel and sling it back.

rmfr

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 07:18

(Reply to #42) #43

Randomhero1982

Randomheros Razor, "if it's

Randomheros Razor, "if it's not evidenced, it's bollocks."

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 08:52

(Reply to #43) #44

arakish

@ Random

Well, I guess it becomes The Six Razors. I am adding that one. Hope you don't mind.

rmfr

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 14:06

(Reply to #44) #45

Randomhero1982

By all means chap!

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 07:54

#46

The_Chameleon

"Recently, we demonstrated

"Recently, we demonstrated using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) that the outcome of free decisions can be decoded from brain activity several seconds before reaching conscious awareness."

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0021612

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 08:15

(Reply to #46) #47

Randomhero1982

And you think that test

And you think that test demonstrates an experiment of true free choice?

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 08:57

(Reply to #47) #48

arakish

Random: "And you think that

Random: "And you think that test demonstrates an experiment of true free choice?"

Works for me. Just because they can see it before it becomes conscious aware only proves free will. The mind has already made the decision from environmental and contingent evidence.

rmfr

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 14:02

#49

The_Chameleon

"Works for me. Just because

"Works for me. Just because they can see it before it becomes conscious aware only proves free will. The mind has already made the decision from environmental and contingent evidence."

How do you figure? The unconscious mind is acting deterministically in direct response to input and deciding a course of action without prompting or guidance from the conscious mind. This is the opposite of free will whereby processing of information is initiated by the conscious mind. So if your choices are generated deterministically without your conscious awareness or willful, then your will is not conscious and not free, but rather bound to the deterministic algorithms that evolutionary processes have generated. You see yourself as an agent of reason when in fact you are an agent of instinct (albeit highly evolved instinct). You choose nothing consciously because all choices are made unconsciously. You (your conscious sense of self) are not the master of your own mind, evolutionary processes occurring in the background without your conscious knowledge or consent are.

Fri, 12/14/2018 - 19:01

(Reply to #49) #50

arakish

And yet it is still all part

And yet it is still all part of the conscious mind. Your conscious mind has environmental and contingential evidence input, then your mind makes a decision based on your conscious mind. Free will.

I know I have free will regardless of how much bullshit you dump, I have Cognostic's Shovel to throw it back. Also, don't make me get Tin-Man in here with his Butter Knife.

rmfr

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