Intelligent Design
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Log in or create an account to join the discussions on the Atheist Republic forums.
@Algebe Re: RSI
Oh, duh! Sorry, I had a blonde moment. (Wait, I AM blonde. Aw, hell, never mind.) Anyway, yeah, it's like when my right wrist gets sore and stiff when I do too much-.... Er-uh... you know, too much.... Ummmm..... Uh, too much WRITING. Yeah, when I do too much writing.
@Lance ref irreducible complexity.
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexity
This is also another argument from ignorance fallacy, as not having an explanation for something doesn't validate unevidenced creationist myths, using unexplained magic.
Go to the talkroigins site Lance, and learn some basic facts please, it's very tedious to give you this information and then watch you ignore it while you trot out all the same old creationist propaganda and rhetoric.
From https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn13663-evolution-myths-the-bacteri...
"Think of a stone archway: hundreds of years after the event, how do you prove how it was built? It might not be possible to prove that the builders used wooden scaffolding to support the arch when it was built, but this does not mean they levitated the stone blocks into place."
@Lance: flagellar motors? Seriously? Go do a Google Search. ID has been to court over 20 times with the same BS argument. It has not won a single case. Evolution explains flagella.
There was a time when the flagella motor did not need to function. It evolved into a flagella motor. All parts have evolved into their current function, thus supporting the idea of evolution.
You are just demonstrably wrong.
This is not a biology forum. Please go and peddle your bullshit in a biology forum. Atheists do not believe in gods. For the sake of argument, let's assume you are completely correct. Evolution is a complete bust. It is fake. 100% fake. That does absolutely nothing for your assertion of a creator. Nothing. You are still left with a burden of proof.
If we assume for the moment that both statements are true (I'm skeptical), that still wouldn't logically rule out natural selection. Notice that your 2nd sentence doesn't quite match up with the first (motor function v.s. advantageous for survival). You would need to at least repair those premises to come to the conclusion I think you want to come to.
There is a population in Africa which is at risk from a recessive disease BUT it enables them to be resistant from a disease I forgot what the name was.
The point is that there are advantageous, neutral and "bad" mutations but even the "badness" on one can be offset by external factors
@Talyyn: Sickle cell anemia is inherited in an autosomal recessive pattern. People who have it are immune to malaria. Just one of those things I have picked up over the years.
@Cognostic
Thank you Cog, I found that by looking shortly after.
@Lance
Here two links for you
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6150079/
https://researchnews.plos.org/2018/06/07/malaria-leaving-its-mark/
Those
And a more general pdf here:
https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-8674(16)31307-1.pdf
@Talyyn
"There is a population in Africa which is at risk from a recessive disease BUT it enables them to be resistant from a disease I forgot what the name was.
The point is that there are advantageous, neutral and "bad" mutations but even the "badness" on one can be offset by external factors"
You might be referring to sickle cell anemia. Sickle cell anemia protects one against malaria.
Even though sickle cell anemia can be a debilitating condition, it is better, from an evolutionary standpoint, than malaria since it assures survival until reproductive age.
Exactly! This is something that is commonly not understood by the Creationists we see here. Many have argued that mutations are either strictly bad or good; and that just isn't borne out by reality.
They construct a cartoon version of a scientific theory, then attack it for being cartoony. It's basically a fancy strawman.
@lance
First you have to prove there is an intelligent designer. So you are going to need some objective evidence that can be tested by anyone, and get the same results.
@xenoview
Even if a "designer" were proven to exist... I think Mister Lance here is doing a textbook example of anthropomorphism.
1. It implies a human-like intelligence.
2. It implies a human-like sentience.
3. It implies a sentience. Period
There is a novel named Blindsight where we encounter aliens and these beings are intelligent without being self-aware. Another canard they threw at us is when they say that god is outside the Universe... How human-like in cognition such a being would be like?
All their arguments are self-defeating.
Oh, someone has brought up the bacterial flagellum. Whoopee. Time for this ...
THE BACTERIAL FLAGELLUM REVISITED
The bacterial flagellum was erected, wholly wrongly it has to be added, by Michael Behe, as the supposed "poster child" for "irreducible complexity". Unfortunately for Behe, his attempt to erect "irreducible complexity" as a purported "problem" for evolution merely demonstrated that he hadn't done his homework. First of all, the concept wasn't his to begin with - it was, in fact, alighted upon way back in 1918 by an evolutionary biologist, and was erected not as a "problem" for evolutionary biology, but as a natural outcome of evolutionary processes. The biologist in question was Hermann Joseph Müller, and the paper in which he first expounded upon the concept was this:
Genetic Variability, Twin Hybrids and Constant Hybrids in a Case of Balanced Lethal Factors by Hermann Joseph Müller, Genetics, 3(5): 422-499 (1918)
The requisite quote can be found starting near the bottom of page 464 of that paper, and moving on to page 465, where it reads as follows:
[quote="Hermann Joseph Müller, 1918"]Most present-day animals are the result of a long process of evolution, in which at least thousands of mutations must have taken place. Each new mutant in turn must have derived its survival value from the effect upon which it produced upon the 'reaction system' that had been brought into being by the many previously formed factors in cooperation; thus, a complicated machine was gradually built up whose effective working was dependent upon the interlocking action of very numerous different elementary parts or factors, and many of the characters and factors which, when new, were originally merely an asset finally became necessary because other necessary characters and factors had subsequently become changed so as to be dependent upon the former. It must result, in consequence, that a dropping out of, or even a slight change in any one of these parts is very likely to disturb fatally the whole machinery.[/quote]
So, Müller alighted upon so-called "irreducibly complex" systems in 1918. He and other evolutionary biologists placed this on a rigorous footing by the 1930s, before Behe was even born. Behe's canard has been KNOWN to be a canard for over six decades. The mechanism by which so-called "irreducibly complex" structures arise is known as the Müllerian Two Step, which is described succinctly as follows:
[1] Add a component;
[2] Make it necessary.
Müller and other contemporaries placed this on a rigorous footing by the 1930s. Therefore Behe's "irreducible complexity" nonsense was known to be a canard by actual biologists the moment he aired it in public.
Of course, Behe's failure to perform the requisite literature search, and realise that this problem had, in essence, been solved back in 1918, merely set a precedent that he was to revisit during the Dover Trial, where he asserted that evolutionary biology not only had no answer to the "problems" purportedly posed by the vertebrate blood clotting cascade, but that evolutionary biology never would find any answers. His rashness in uttering this was sharply exposed, when the cross examining counsel presented Behe with no less than fifty-eight peer reviewed scientific papers, and nine university textbooks, containing the very material Behe had claimed would never exist.
Likewise, his arguments with respect to the bacterial flagellum revealed that he had not bothered performing even the most perfunctory of literature searches. Not least because scientists were publishing papers containing research unravelling the secrets of the bacterial flagellum several years before it was erected as a purported "poster child" for "intelligent design". However, it appears that the situation is now even worse for the "cdesign proponentsists" with regard to the bacterial flagellum.
Those nice people over at TalkRational pointed me to a very interesting blog. Namely the blog of Mark Pallen, who was co-author with Nick Matzke of at least one peer reviewed paper in Nature on the bacterial flagellum (and indeed probably wrote more - I just happen to be aware of the one I have saved to my hard drive). That paper is the following one:
From The Origin Of Species To The Origin Of Bacterial Flagella by Mark J. Pallen & Nicholas J. Matzke, Nature Reviews Microbiology, 4(10): 784-790 (October 2006).
I shall return to this paper shortly, but first, a little preamble is needed.
For those unfamiliar with the background, Nick Matzke was the author of an interesting article, namely this one, which hypothesised that the various proteins that are found in the bacterial flagellum would be found to be homologous with other proteins belonging to other metabolic systems, and that as a consequence, the bacterial flagellum would eventually be found to be the result of co-opting existing, earlier systems and re-using them for another purpose - a classic evolutionary process. Needless to say, a lot of noise was emitted by the ID brigade to the effect that Matzke's ideas were "speculation", and the rest of it, but, the point here is that Matzke made testable predictions in his article, and in doing so provided evolutionary biologists with real substance that they could pursue in the laboratory. The following quote from the abstract of Matzke's original paper is apposite:
Now, note that specific predictions were made with respect to the homologies involved, namely that homologies would be found between flagellar proteins and those of the Type 3 Secretory System, plus an enzyme called F1F0-ATP synthetase. I'll leave the latter enzyme aside for a moment, but return to it because this one turns out to play an important role. Stay tuned for the fun revelations!
Now, first of all, the paper from Nature Reviews Microbiology I cited above by Matzke & Pallen itself dispenses wholesale with the idea of the bacterial flagellum being "irreducibly complex", because, lo and behold, there are bacteria with flagella that are missing numerous components. From that paper, I copy the following details with respect to the presence or absence of specific flagellar proteins in various bacteria possessing flagella:
FlgA (P ring) - Absent from Gram-Positive bacteria
FlgBCFG (Rod) - universal
FlgD (Hook) - universal
FlgE (Hook) - universal
FlgH (L Ring) - Absent from Gram-Positive bacteria
FlgI (P Ring) - Absent from Gram-Positive bacteria
FlgJ (Rod) - FlgJ Rod N-terminal domain absent from some systems
FlgK (Hook-Filament Junction) - universal
FlgL (Hook-Filament Junction) - universal
FlgM (Cytoplasm & Exterior) - Absent from Caulobacter
FlgN (Cytoplasm) - Undetectable in some systems
FlhA (T3SS apparatus) - universal
FlhB (T3SS apparatus) - universal
FlhDC (Cytoplasm) - Absent from many systems
FlhE (Unknown) - Mutant retains full motility
FliA (Cytoplasm) - Absent from Caulobacter
FliB (Cytoplasm) - Absent from Escherichia coli
FliC (Filament) - universal
FliD (Filament) - Absent from Caulobacter
FliE (Rod/Basal Body) - universal
FliF (T3SS apparatus) - universal
FliG (Peripheral) - universal
FliH (T3SS apparatus) - Mutant retains some motility
FliI (T3SS apparatus) - universal
FliJ (Cytoplasm) - Undetectable in some systems
FliK (Hook/Basal Body) - universal
FliL (Basal body) - Mutant retains full motility
FliM (T3SS apparatus) - universal
FliN (T3SS apparatus) - universal
FliO (T3SS apparatus) - Undetectable in some systems
FliP (T3SS apparatus) - universal
FliQ (T3SS apparatus) - universal
FliR (T3SS apparatus) - universal
FliS (Cytoplasm) - Absent from Caulobacter
FliT (Cytoplasm) - Absent from many systems
FliZ (Cytoplasm) - Absent from many systems
MotA (Inner membrane) - universal
MotB (Inner membrane) - universal
So, the mere fact that there are in existence bacteria with missing proteins from the above list whose flagella still function rather makes a mockery of the "irreducible complexity" assertion to begin with. But, this is only part of the story. The same paper continues with the following:
The paper continues with:
Now, as a slight tangential diversion, which along the way provides yet more evidence for evolutionary hypotheses, one avenue of attack being considered with respect to the development of the bacterial flagellum is the reconstruction of earlier, more ancient versions of the proteins responsible for the construction of this structure. Precedents already exist with respect to the reconstruction of ancient genes, and the following four papers are examples thereof:
Crystal Structure Of An Ancient Protein: Evolution By Conformational Epistasis by Eric A. Ortlund, Jamie T. Bridgham, Matthew R. Redinbo and Joseph W. Thornton, Science, 317: 1544-1548 (14 September 2007)
Resurrecting Ancient Genes: Experimental Analysis Of Extinct Molecules by Joseph W. Thornton, Nature Reviews: Genetics, 5: 366-375 (5 May 2004)
Resurrection Of DNA Function In Vivo From An Extinct Genome by Andrew J. Pask, Richard R. Behringer and Marilyn B. Renfree, PLoS One, 3(5): e2240 (online version, May 2008)
The Past As The Key To The Present: Resurrection Of Ancient Proteins From Eosinophils by Steven A. Benner, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA., 99(8): 4760-4761 (16 April 2002)
From the paper by Pask et al above, we have:
So scientists are already resurrecting ancient proteins and testing their functionality in model organisms. Indeed, one of the results in the scientific literature comes courtesy of this paper:
Resurrecting The Ancestral Steroid Receptor: Ancient Origin Of Oestrogen Signalling by J.W. Thornton, E. Need and D. Crews, Science, 301: 1714-1717 (2003)
in which the scientists determined that the modern receptors for steroid hormones in modern organisms are traceable to an ancestral receptor dating back 600 million years, and reconstructed the ancestral steroid receptor in the laboratory to determine that it worked.
So, given that precedents already exist for the successful reconstruction of ancient proteins and the genes coding for them, this avenue of attack is likely to prove highly instructive with respect to the bacterial flagellum. Indeed, Pallen & Matzke make this very observation in their paper:
However, let us move on to the more recent developments.
Now, back in 2006, Pallen & Matzke listed some known homologies, and once again, I reproduce their results from the table in the paper:
FlgA (P ring) - CpaB
FlgBCFG (Rod) - FlgBCEFGK
FlgD (Hook) - none specified
FlgE (Hook) - FlgBCEFGK
FlgH (L Ring) - none yet known
FlgI (P Ring) - none yet known
FlgJ (Rod) - none yet known
FlgK (Hook-Filament Junction) - FlgBCEFGK
FlgL (Hook-Filament Junction) - FliC
FlgM (Cytoplasm & Exterior) - none yet known
FlgN (Cytoplasm) - none yet known
FlhA (T3SS apparatus) - LcrD/YscV
FlhB (T3SS apparatus) - YscU
FlhDC (Cytoplasm) - Other activators
FlhE (Unknown) - none specified
FliA (Cytoplasm) - RpoD, RpoH, RpoS
FliB (Cytoplasm) - none specified
FliC (Filament) - FlgL, EspA
FliD (Filament) - none yet known
FliE (Rod/Basal Body) - none yet known
FliF (T3SS apparatus) - YscJ
FliG (Peripheral) - MgtE
FliH (T3SS apparatus) - YscL, AtpFH
FliI (T3SS apparatus) - YscN, AtpD, Rho
FliJ (Cytoplasm) - YscO
FliK (Hook/Basal Body) - YscI
FliL (Basal body) - none yet known
FliM (T3SS apparatus) - FliN, YscQ
FliN (T3SS apparatus) - FliM, YscQ
FliO (T3SS apparatus) - none
FliP (T3SS apparatus) - YscR
FliQ (T3SS apparatus) - YscS
FliR (T3SS apparatus) - YscT
FliS (Cytoplasm) - none yet known
FliT (Cytoplasm) - none yet known
FliZ (Cytoplasm) - none yet known
MotA (Inner membrane) - ExbB, TolQ
MotB (Inner membrane) - ExbD, TolR, OmpA
Now, as Pallen states in his blog entry as linked above, out of this list of proteins, only two were listed as being both essential to all bacterial flagella AND possessing no known homologues in 2006. Those proteins were FliE and FlgD. From the 2006 update of Matzke's original 2003 paper, we read:
At least, this was the situation back in 2006. However, science moves on!
First, take a look at this site, which is the site devoted to ATP synthase. Now, one of the homologies that Matzke originally hypothesised was that at least one of the flagellar proteins would prove to be homologous to proteins in the ATP synthase group, in particular the awkwardly named F1F0-ATP synthetase. Now it turns out that ATP synthases are themselves complex entities, and indeed F1-ATPase rotates on an axis as it performs its synthesis! However, as this paper:
Axle-Less F1-ATPase Rotates In The Correct Direction by Shou Furuike, Mohammad Delawar Hossain, Yasushi Maki, Kengo Adachi, Toshiharu Suzuki, Ayako Kohori, Hiroyasu Itoh, Masasuke Yoshida and Kazuhiko Kinosita, Jr., Science, 319: 955-958 (No. 5865, 15 February 2008)
reveals very succinctly, dismantling this structure so that it no longer has an axle to rotate about does not stop it from functioning! Here's the abstract:
Another blow to "irreducible complexity" (Hermann Müller would doubtless have smiled wryly over this!), but this isn't all. Returning to Pallen's blog, we find this:
So, the FliI protein appeared on the face of it to be essential, because knocking out the gene for FliI synthesis destroyed flagellar biosynthesis. But, and here's the part that really throws the spanner into "irreducible complexity" as espoused by Behe, if you knock out the gene coding for FliI, but in addition knock out the gene for FliH, flagellar biosynthesis returns! This rather buggers up "irreducible complexity" in a spectacular manner.
Yet even this is not the whole story. Believe it or not, there is more! Returning to Pallen's blog, we read:
Incidentally, the paper covering the homology between FliI and the alpha and beta subunits of the F-type ATPase is this paper:
Salmonella typhimurium Mutants Defective In Flagellar Filament Regrowth And Sequence Similarity Of FliI to F[sub]0[/sub]F[sub]1[/sub], Vacuolar, And Archaebacterial ATPase Subunits by Alfried P. Vogler, Michio Homma, Vera M. Irikura and Robert M. McNab, Journal of Bacteriology, 173(11): 3564-3572 (June 1991) [Full paper downloadable from here]
so this homology had actually been known even before Behe made his assertions about "irreducible complexity", something he would have known if he had bothered to perform a basic literature search. After all, he has institutional access, whereas I don't currently, yet I was able to find this paper once pointed in the right direction. This paper also covers the knocking out of the gene for FliI and the effect on flagellar biosynthesis.
More pertinently, the following paper:
Evolutionary Links Between FliH/YscL-Like Proteins From Bacterial Type III Secretion Systems And Second-Stalk Components Of The F[sub]0[/sub]F[sub]1[/sub] And Vacuolar ATPases by Mark J. Pallen, Christopher M. Bailey and Scott A. Beatson, Protein Science, 15: 935-941 (2006) [Full paper downloadable from here]
is the one containing the confirmation by Pallen of one of Matzke's predictions as cited above. Another homology was confirmed courtesy of this paper:
Structural Similarity Between The Flagellar Type III ATPase FliI And F[sub]1[/sub]-ATPase Subunits by Katsumi Imada, Tohru Minamino, Aiko Tahara and Keiichi Namba, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the USA, 104(2): 485-490 [Full paper downloadable from here]
This paper:
Distinct Roles Of The FliI ATPase And Proton Motive Force In Bacterial Flagellar Protein Export by Tohru Minamino and Keiichi Namba, Nature, 451: 485-489 (24th January 2008) [Full paper downloadable from here]
is the paper that covers the knocking out of FliH and FliI resulting in restoration of flagellar biosynthesis.
So, now the only two proteins remaining to find homologies for are FliE and FlgD, and you can bet that this is being worked upon as I type this.
So, another massive nail in the coffin for ID is hammered home, and evolution wins yet again. I'll raise a glass of claret to that. :)
*raises glass of nearest available wine/booze/whatever*
Hear hear. Another ridiculous apologetic argument bites the dust utterly obliterated by the reality of things.
*turns up Queen*
@ Calli
Once again *boom* the distant sound of a theist's head exploding when their comfort blanket is taken away, laundered, shredded and knitted into a factual plain sheet.
Stealing.All.Of.This.
You are a fricking Gem, Calli. Thankyou. * Raises bottle of Marlborough Pinot Noir in salute*
The blog post about tree test ux was a real eye-opener for me when working on improving the navigation on the site. This testing method showed how important it is to properly structure information for users. With Tree Test, I was able to clearly see how users find the sections they need and where difficulties arise. This allowed me to make significant improvements to the structure of our site, making it more intuitive. The results of the testing also helped optimize the navigation, which positively affected the overall user experience.
Pages