I'm a new member here but I'm not new to atheism.
I live in Australia which is mostly an egalitarian society and I find it very difficult to relate to the problems that a lot of North American atheists seem to have with "coming out" as atheists. Religion is not an all consuming social event here and atheism, while not the default position, is far widely accepted as a legitimate position.
One of the growing problems that we have here in Australia and probably worldwide, is the growing acceptance of Islam as a viable lifestyle. Islam just seems to creep up on a society. It starts with us making minor allowances such as prayer rooms at airports for taxi drivers which seems quite logical at the time as a very large majority of Australian Taxi Drivers are muslim and they need to pray so often etc. Then it's face coverings for women in law courts and drivers licences and then halal verification of food and then we move to having all pork products taken off the menu at restaurants because muslims find it offensive and it just seems to advance from there. Suddenly we find that the 98% of non muslims are changing our life style because the 2% are more vocal, more aggressive and more threatening.
Somehow a large percentage of the non muslim public are convinced that raising these sort of objections is racist and any objections become " not cool" and out of step. This encourages further excesses by muslim leaders into changing societies status quo which can result over time into the islamification of a whole society.
I am very interested to hear your views, am I a racist? are my opinions extreme? or are you also watching the slow creeping islamification of your country?
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In Britain the islamification is happening pretty much the same but people are not freaking out too much as situation still appears to be under control.........there are quite organisations working towards deislamification as well peacefully..........moreover it is medias fault how much voice to give to whom?...........On the other hand the government have been taking quite drastiv measures on immigration and I personally feel that there will be less foreigners settling down in the coming decade......but that is because UK is overfilled by the EU and Non EU immigration in the last decade as far as I know Australia is still looking for skilled people so immigration is still open for skilled people. As there is no discrimination in the immigration process, cursing it won't do any good.
I have never been to Australia but only have seen such news on the internet so i will not pass judgement on how it exactly is in Australia...........but I would suggest that if you support the secular muslims or the muslims up for reforming islam if you have any and other humanist groups raising issues relating to human rights then it may help bringing the situation under control.
In Britain we have organisations like Quillium and British Humanist Association that keep pulling the legs of sharia or islamization or islamism on different issues.
Greeting K-B........
Are you a/ racist .....
or b/ holding extreme opinions.....
no idea ....
You have not mentioned any race in particular......
You seem to be falling into a fallacy , (common among muslims actually ) ...islam is just a religion....it ain't a race.
Arguably you may call it a "tradition" or even a "culture"... but race....? no.
If you say bloody Philippinoes or bloody Pakistanis.....then yup thats racist....but bloody muslims ? whatever else it may be...it aint racist.
As to the list of problems you see associated with Islam....
I do have to wonder just how much of a problem they can actually be ................. being only 2.9 % of the population.
Just for comparison the small island nation of Aruba (off the north coast of Venezuela ) currently has 5% of its population made up of Muslims ..
Don't get me wrong ,Im not any sort of apologist for islam.....its just that I don't see Aus as particularly afflicted by the depredations of the sons of the prophet.
As an Atheist I would be more concerned with Australia's Catholic population (currently standing at around 27.8%)....
Catholics ,admittedly are less spectacularly anti social , not too many explosions ,or violence ... (not counting Ireland over the last 400 years)
However they have managed to outrage the entire civilised world with their criminal activities ,
Can I ask ,where do you get the details of these terrible Muslim plots and incursions from ? Would it be the Murdoch press ,perhaps ?
Watchman
Of course you're right about the racism, I was adopting the position of the pro-islam groups, mainly as sarcasm. You're also correct about what I have described as not being a major problem in Australia. This is mainly because the current Australian Government has completely stopped the illegal arrival of boatloads of muslims. I am trying to alert my fellow placid, laid back Australians to the major problems that European countries are now facing. Great Britain, France and The Scandinavian Countries in particular.
We are also fully aware of the disgraceful behaviour of the Catholic Clergy and The Government has set up a Royal Commission into the activities of churches and other organisations regarding child abuse. This has almost finished and it looks like they will be recommending about 600 criminal charges against organisations and individuals regarding their failure to act when they had knowledge of their members behaviour in this matter.
As for living in a free society I think that Islam is the greatest detriment to this cause and we should all be activating to rid our countries of this corrosive and vicious religion.
killerbee-So your a racist-Get over it. I am also a bigot. I hate Christians, Catholics, Protestants, Calvinists, Lutherans, Hindus, Sunni Muslims and the other kind, Jehavoh Witness, Mormons, Scientologists --did I leave anybody out--oh yeah Jews too. Maybe I don't hate them all the same though.. Scientologists I hate the most then Moslems then born again Protestants and so on. I hate sour milk, rotten eggs, doody diapers, the flu, old celery, Joel Osteen(I really hate Joel Osteen), . I hate lots of things but I hate religion and Joel Osteen more than my other hates. Yes I am a God bigot and proud of it. Do I need therapy.
"It starts with us making minor allowances such as prayer rooms at airports for taxi drivers which seems quite logical at the time as a very large majority of Australian Taxi Drivers are muslim and they need to pray so often etc."
Whelp, that is the first mistake. I call it the tyranny of the shrill minority, wherein if you give in to even one of their demands, they get the strange idea that they are owed greater concessions.
"Then it's face coverings for women in law courts and drivers licences and then halal verification of food and then we move to having all pork products taken off the menu at restaurants because muslims find it offensive and it just seems to advance from there."
Indeed, and remember, slippery slope is only a fallacy when the asserted effects do NOT logically follow from the premises. Slippery slope isn't always a fallacy, and is often a good way to describe the chain effects of certain choices.
"Suddenly we find that the 98% of non muslims are changing our life style because the 2% are more vocal, more aggressive and more threatening."
Yep, and until that 98% wise up and fight back, they will continue being pushed around by the shrill minority.
"Somehow a large percentage of the non muslim public are convinced that raising these sort of objections is racist and any objections become " not cool" and out of step."
Indeed, despite Islam not being a race, and objections against any other religion being more than supported or tolerated.
"This encourages further excesses by muslim leaders into changing societies status quo which can result over time into the islamification of a whole society."
Sounds correct.
"I am very interested to hear your views, am I a racist?"
No more than I am for not wanting to live in a theocratic society.
"are my opinions extreme?"
I think not.
"or are you also watching the slow creeping islamification of your country?"
I live in the United States, Texas to be specific. Probably the ONLY positive in living in such a racist and Christian majority place is that it is virtually resistant to even worse theocracies.
Hey Killerbee,
I don't agree with what you are saying, firstly; Muslims don’t drink beer, so we can assume that the pubs wont need to take pork off their menus, also pork is the main type of meat eaten by Chinese people and Han-Chinese vastly outnumber Muslims, even where I live and I live within walking distance of Lakemba, Sydneys "Muslim capital". Further more, I don't see what it has to do with you if Muslim taxi drivers want to pray at the airport, I would honestly be surprised if that inconvenienced a single second from your life, compared to all the businesses that must close on Christian holidays right now.
Killerbee, I think you really need to take a step back here and remember who's side your own, and that there are more than 2 sides in this debate. We as Australians are far more likely to have the Christian majority impose their way of life on us than we are to have the 1% of Muslims living in the country. Lots of this anti-Islamic propaganda is something of a sweet-poison, as atheists we are obviously against Islam, yet the people distributing this hate are often Christian-Right-wingers, who probably see you as a Left-wing Communist by virtue of your atheism.
As atheists we really need to define ourselves with what we stand for, a secular government, transparency in government, technology, anti-censorship, individual rights, education and science, and not define ourselves by what we stand against; such as Islam or Christianity.
So if you find yourself being forced to give opinions directly on or against a particular religion, try to get the ball back in your court with statements like "I'm an atheist, I stand for science/education/secularism/etc". There are plenty of conservative governments (such as Turkey and others) that pander to the poor little Christians and Muslims who get "offended" by things.
Daz welcome to the forum
"As atheists we really need to define ourselves with what we stand for, a secular government, transparency in government, technology, anti-censorship, individual rights, education and science, and not define ourselves by what we stand against; such as Islam or Christianity."
Yea completely agree
"So if you find yourself being forced to give opinions directly on or against a particular religion, try to get the ball back in your court with statements like "I'm an atheist, I stand for science/education/secularism/etc"."
I disagree, YOU INDEED MUST express your opinion on the matter else there is no progress and think that they are doing the right thing.
THUS we are not just atheists, we are atheists who care.
One of the things we care about is that Islam, like Christianity abuses children.
It legalizes and promotes the idea that child indoctrination is OK.
That indoctrination is a good thing.
Most of us are not just atheists but also anti-theist, against what theism stands for.
The brainwashing of the innocent.
We should push forward the idea that children should not be forced into a religion by their parents but be thought a religion only after reaching some age. Say 18
When they are mature enough to understand what they are being thought.
So yes Christianity and Islam are doing something that borders on rape and most of us do not want it in our country.
This does not mean that you would kick all Muslim or Christian out of the country but everything has to have a beginning, and it starts with a complaint and speaking out load about it.
Just like burning witches, slavery and gay marriage were changed so will indoctrination, by first speaking out loud about it.
It did not ban Christians or Muslims from the country, it just made their religion bow on it's knees to reason and justice.
If you are silent it means you are OK with it.
Daz.
It's orright mate. My wife taught me how to multi task. I can be in favour of science and be against Islam, Christianity and ALL religious belief all at the same time while having a beer.
By the way, I think you will find that the muslim population is closer to 3% than 1%
Hey Jeff, Killerbee.
First of all I just want to point out that I am 100% against the spread of Islam, I'm certainly not silent and there are people out there who have called me a racist or decided to not associate with me because of my opinions on Islam.
I also painted this picture ( http://daz-01.deviantart.com/art/Terrorist-Islam-Je-Suis-Charlie-511442909 ) as part of a draw Mohammed protest for the Charlie Hebdo shootings.
I am also not in denial about how bad the behaviour of the Muslim population is, I remember reading an article from an Australian police officer talking about how when they raided some drug dealing Lebanese family's house, mum, dad, grandma, the kids etc all attacked the police and started spitting on them, they play the system to their advantage, lie through the skin of their teeth, harrass and cut people off in traffic. Muslims are quite literally the worst group of people in the world to go by any single name. There are "normal" Muslims, but they are a troubled community, just like the Aboriginal community is a troubled community, though we have no reason to be charitable to the Muslims.
So let me clarify my point, recently in Australia we have had a group calling itself "Reclaim Australia", protest against the so-called Islamification of Australia and I decided not to attend their protests because the figureheads of that movement are Christians, and that group like so many "anti-Islamic" groups aims to counter Islam by forcing Christianity on people.
Many times when I have been in an argument about Islam and people have argued against me by justifying Islam as a religion by contrasting it to the Bible, one (non-muslim) idiot said to me that it was not so bad that Mohammed was a Pedophile, because it was suggested that the (virgin?) Mary was only 13 when she gave birth to Jesus.
" We should push forward the idea that children should not be forced into a religion by their parents but be thought a religion only after reaching some age. Say 18
When they are mature enough to understand what they are being thought. "
I think a good education in itself is all we really need, between science and an understanding of the vast cultural history of the world should be enough to wake any healthy mind to the truth, although I have also entertained such ideas of bringing religion to a halt with physical force, however it implies the idea that the government would have dangerous and far-reaching power into peoples lives.
What I really want is for atheists to have a greater political presence in and of themselves, including our own rallies/protests and political parties. I don't want our protests against Islam to empower Christian conservatives.
I agree with most of your points.
"I think a good education in itself is all we really need"
The problem is that brainwashing always wins over education for kids.
Especially if it is coming from their parents.
Simply because the kids are not mature to understand the concept of critical thinking at that age.
While it is much easier to obey and follow orders especially if they been doing that from birth.
Forcing children to accept some false things as facts which do not have any base in reason like "GOD IS LOVE" is the problem.
Then children build their reality around that and no amount of reason will change their mind for a long time.
Only the very rebellious and critical thinkers can get out of it without help.
That is what brainwashing is all about.
I am sorry education does not help, else every single graduate would not be a christian/Muslim would he?
The truth is that brainwashing works and religion uses it to manipulate the people.
If we keep ignoring this problem, more people will suffer as a consequence.
More children will get raped by priests that get away with it etc...