I've finally found the explanation for those that know about god

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Kataclismic's picture
At your age, your diabetes is

At your age, your diabetes is a result of how you have lived. You have caused it. At fifteen I didn't cause it, it is a result of an immunodeficiency that I was born with. I stood in the Catholic church, asked god what he wanted me to do and received no response. I stood in the Methodist church, asked god what he wanted me to do and received no response. I stood in the Mormon church, asked god what he wanted me to do and received no response. I stood in the Jehovah's Witnesse's Kingdom Hall, asked god what he wanted me to do, and received no response.

So tell me Skeptical Christian, how do you know what god wants?

bigbill's picture
dear kata i know what god

dear kata i know what god wants its so simple just read the new testament meditate on the cross of jesus and his passion and suffering remember what he said i will never leave you or forsake you he is there so accept your cross pick up your cross and follow jesus.

Kataclismic's picture
Did you not read? I have

Did you not read? I have given myself to Jesus. I have gotten on my knees and prayed to your god, begged him even. I have already wasted a lot of the short life I have begging your god for a reprieve. It is just that, a waste of time.

Matthew 21:
"21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive."

Your bible is wrong, it is a story, useless to me and useless to you. Or worse than that it is just a lie. You come here and foist your religion onto us for what purpose? To support your own faith? I hope that works for you because it doesn't convince me of anything.

Your Jesus is such an important figure he didn't write a single thing with his own pen. It's very hard to convince me somebody existed at a time when writing was the new fad for organizing things, and yet... didn't write a single thing. This is evidence that such a person didn't exist. What you believe isn't worth the paper that scriptures are printed on.

I carry my cross because there is no Jesus.

chimp3's picture
@skepticalchristian : The

@skepticalchristian : The concept of being born in sin is one of the most immoral claims ever created in the human imagination. You should be ashamed of yourself for perpetuating this philosophical diarrhea.

watchman's picture
To the forum ...an apology in

To the forum ...an apology in advance....
What I am about to post is both very long...and very distressing.....
However in view of Skeptical Christians continued baiting of the forum I feel that it is due....


"there is a thing as original sin "
"turn from your evil ways to jesus christ".....

Oh dear...oh dear...oh dear.....such arrogance can only come from a catholic criminal.....

and I think I saw a post where you said you were proud to be a catholic.....

PROUD..?? Personally I'm surprised you dare to leave your house in daylight....

Proud of what...?

Lets see shall we.....

Priest child sex abuse.
Many instances ,world wide ,of child abuse committed by ,enabled by and covered up by members of Catholic Clergy over many years.
Belgium ,Germany, Austria ,Australia ,Ireland ,Spain ,Italy ,United States ,Netherlands ,Switzerland ,Malta.

Old news...? passed off as the acts of a minority.... lets look further....

Magdalein Homes for unmarried mothers .forced labour for the women after having their babies removed for adoption.
In most of these asylums, the inmates were required to undertake hard physical labour, including laundry and needle work. They also endured a daily regime that included long periods of prayer and enforced silence.

Father Hudson Homes , Children were placed in theses homes when their families could no longer take care of them but here they found only institutionalised cruelty and abuse inflicted on the child inmates over periods of years.

Vanished Babies.New born babies sold into adoptive families by Catholic Nuns.
Over 150.000 women are now speaking out in Australia to speak about how the catholic nuns forced them into giving up their babies in adoption - in other cases, women were just drugged in catholic hospitals when giving birth and told their babies were born stillborn. The Catholic nuns then SOLD these babies into adoption.

This organized crime scheme has been put in place in Spain as well (over 300,000 children were stolen by nuns


This happened also in Chile and Argentina...

Vatican support of Nazi Germany during WW2.
Vatican support of Fascist Ustashi regime during WW2.
Vatican exploitation of Hollocaust to kidnap Jewish children.
Vatican exploitation of Hollocaust to profit from gold from Ustashi concentration camps.
Vatican runs “ratlines” for escaping Nazi war criminals.

The Bishop of Tenerife provided an interesting explanation for the vast numbers of children raped by Catholic priests:
They asked for it.

In 2007, when the American Catholic Church was reeling from sex abuse scandals but not so much Europe, the Bishop of Tenerife, Bernardo Álvarez, made some interesting Christmas holiday comments.

In a Christmas Eve interview with La Opinión de Tenerife, Bishop Alvarez said that there are children who want to be abused:

“There are 13 year old adolescents who are under age and who are perfectly in agreement with, and what’s more wanting it, and if you are careless they will even provoke you.”

That’s right, the rapists aren’t the priests. It’s those seductive tempters and temptresses, fresh-faced whores all, bending over in front of priests, flaunting their taut, young, moist flesh, just begging to be used as the sexual playthings of perverted pedophiles (and hebephiles) who have sworn to their imaginary friend that they will be celibate for life.

It’s probably their plan to sue later and retire on the Catholic Cult’s ill-gotten loot. After all, so many seem to be doing it!

Former Roman Catholic priest Alexander Bede Walsh has been sentenced to 22 years for sexually abusing eight young boys for two decades.
Walsh, 58, of Church Lane, Abbots Bromley, carried out the attacks against boys aged between eight and 16 while working at children's homes and churches in Warwickshire, Staffordshire and Coventry between the 1975 and 1993.
Walsh 21 sexual offences after a 10-day-trail at Stoke on Trent Crown Court in February.
He was arrested in 2006 after two men from Coventry contacted the police to say they had been abused by Walsh. Further complaints from other victims arrived between 2088 and 2011.
The court heard how Walsh already had a previous conviction for possessing indecent images of children.
After Walsh's conviction, Staffordshire Police Detective Constable Tim Bailey said: "He is supposed to be a man of the cloth but he has shown no compassion, no integrity and no humanity.
"He has forced grown men to come to court and relive childhood experiences of sexual abuse".
A jury cleared Walsh of six other charges.


Underage sexual abuse victims were castrated in Dutch Roman Catholic psychiatric wards in the 1950s, according to the Rotterdam-based newspaper NRC Handelsblad.
Castration was performed on young men who were thought to be homosexual, but also as a means of punishing those who blew the whistle on abusers, the paper quotes sources as saying.
NRC discovered proof of the forced castration of one young man and strong evidence that at least ten other abuse victims were subjected to the removal of their testicles. The proof includes court documents, medical records, letters from lawyers and private correspondence.
According to the paper, the practice was reported in 2010 to the Deetman Commission which completed its investigation of sexual abuse in the Roman Catholic church last December. The commission, led by former cabinet minister Wim Deetman of the Christian Democrat party (CDA), made no mention of the castration of abuse victims in its final report.
NRC also writes that a prominent Dutch politician tried to secure a royal pardon for Catholic brothers convicted of sexual abuse at Harreveld, a former boarding school in the Netherlands. The politician was Vic Marijnen, who later became Dutch prime minister.
Marijnen was chairman of the Harreveld board of governors at the time when the abuses took place. He was also vice-chairman of the Netherlands' main Catholic child protection agency and leader of the Catholic People's Party (KVP), which later merged with Protestant groups to create the Christian Democrats.
In a reaction, the church-installed Deetman Commission says it did not publish any findings on the castration of abused minors in its final report because it had "too few leads for further investigation." The commission did not report on the actions of Vic Marijnen because "the case was unmistakeably tied to circumstances which could be traced back to an individual person." In its final report, the commission left most identities anonymous as a means of protecting individuals' privacy.


Serious abuses went on unreported for years in Dutch Roman Catholic homes for the mentally disabled. They included sex offences, castration, secret medical experiments and possibly murder. One Catholic brother was banished to Africa for doing unethical brain research. Radio Netherlands Worldwide tracked him down.
Until recent years, most abuses in Dutch institutional care were kept out of the public eye. One exception was a scandal in 1978 involving medical experiments at 'Huize Assisië’, a Roman Catholic boarding school for mentally handicapped boys in the southern town of Udenhout.

Brain x-rays
The home's medical doctor and a Catholic nurse known as Brother Dionysius performed spinal taps on approximately 180 patients, including minors. They injected fluid and air into the patients' brains in order to take x-rays of the cerebral cortex. These were used for brain research which was quietly being carried out. After the injections, the patients suffered nausea and headaches for days. Their parents were neither asked for permission nor notified of the procedures.

Sent to Africa
When former employees blew the whistle, the doctor was sacked and ordered to pay a fine. Brother Dionysius was sent to Tanzania by his congregation. The case was discussed in the Dutch parliament, where MPs complained that the health inspector had given private institutions such as Huize Assisië a free hand.

"Nothing untoward"
Radio Netherlands Worldwide has discovered that Brother Dionysius is still working as a hospital nurse in the Tanzanian village of Sengerema, near Lake Victoria. Speaking to RNW by telephone, the 76-year-old brother said he had done "nothing untoward".
"What we did was happening at other institutions too," he said. "As the x-ray technician, I was carrying out the doctor's orders. It was none of my business whether the parents knew. I was fired after the story got out, but that was just to put a stop to all the fuss."

Lurid secrets
It was a rare example of institutional abuse becoming public knowledge. More often than not, such cases are swept under the rug where they remain for decades. But lately, some lurid secrets have come out in the open.
In a Dutch TV investigation, a former head nurse at 'Huize Sint Joseph’, a Catholic home for mentally disabled boys, alleged that one of his predecessors had fatally poisoned at least 20 patients in the early 1950s. The story caused ripples well beyond Heel, the small southern Dutch village where the institution has stood proud since the 19th century.
Indecent assault

Aside from alleged multiple murders, the media have revealed that there was both sexual and physical abuse at Huize Sint Joseph. The latest news dug up by investigative reporters: a rector at the home was convicted of indecent assault of minors in 1967. Two nurses who reported him were sacked and ordered to remain silent. Following his conviction, the rector requested a pardon so he could remain employed at a vocational school where he held a job as a teacher of Child Protection. The judge refused and gave him a short prison sentence.

Several people who formerly lived in Huize Sint Joseph say the Catholic brothers often beat the children in their care and locked them up in solitary confinement. Historian Annemieke Klijn wrote about the violence in a book about the home. She described the many forms of restraint and coercion the brothers used, including "a perhaps somewhat unrestrained smack".

Grave faults
Dr Klijn describes Huize Sint Joseph as an institution where many religious men worked with great dedication, but where the quality of care had grave faults. This was partly due to overcrowding and a lack of well-trained personnel.
Like many Roman Catholic care facilities in its day, it suffered from a lack of funds. Catholic homes for the disabled also resisted outside attempts to impose training to professionalize the quality of care. It is not known how widespread similar abuses to those at Huize Sint Joseph were at other Catholic care institutions.

A practice which was fairly widespread but not widely publicized until recent years was the chemical castration of patients. One of the institutions where this took place was the Sint Willibrordus home, a Catholic facility for the mentally ill in the Dutch town of Heiloo, north of Amsterdam. Among those castrated were priests who had committed sexual offences and seminary students who were thought unable to keep their libido in check.

Inquiry doubtful
So far, there appears to be little interest in a wide-ranging inquiry into abuses in Roman Catholic care for the mentally disabled. Member of the Upper House and medical ethics expert Heleen Dupuis questions the need for an inquiry. Dr Dupuis, who chairs the main Dutch trade organisation for providers of care to the disabled, says anyone found guilty of abuse must be punished. But she prefers to emphasize how much Dutch care has improved since decades past when so many abuses took place. "Thank God we no longer live in those times," she says.

Do not take my word for any of the above...check them out for yourselves.....

See why Atheist activists are not only justified but very VERY necessary....
Apologies for the walls of text....

Still proud SkepChris...???

algebe's picture
Great research Watchman.

Great research Watchman.

A couple more countries for your list:
New Zealand

I remember the story about the Magdalene Laundries. The girls and women who were sent to those nuns suffered appalling abuse and were kept as slaves.

Sir Random's picture
Thank you for that watchman.

Thank you for that watchman. I sincerely think the forum needed a good slap from reality.

fostermom's picture
Hello people!!

Hello people!!

I just joined this debating site...so be patient with me as I find my way around!

This topic intrigues me, as it only refers to scientists that are believers. I know plenty of physicians, lawyers, professors, and mathematicians that are Christian. I am Christian, but I certainly am not going to complete with people of such intelligence. I was just wondering why scientists were singled out!

Have a beautiful evening, people!!

algebe's picture
Welcome wifeofawonderfulman.

Welcome wifeofawonderfulman.

You have the same name as my wife.

I think some of us here find it a little puzzling that a scientist could also have faith. Science is based on questioning, logic, testing, evidence. It begins with "I don't know." Faith seems to rule out questioning. It begins with "I cannot know."

fostermom's picture
Thanks for the welcome Algebe

Thanks for the welcome Algebe! I am positive the same name applies to your wife :-)

I am a nurse. I understand science, and the huge role it plays in our world. I however, fail to understand why a scientist can't be a Christian. I am under the belief that science does not disprove God, but rather enhances it. We know that the earth rotates around the sun, but it does not exclude the possibility that God set it all in motion.

Wishes for a beautiful evening with your wonderful wife!

algebe's picture
Well it's 11am here,

Well it's 11am here, wifeofawonderfulman, but we'll try to make it a good day and a beautiful evening.

Well the idea that god set everything in motion leads on to the question of when that happened. We've gone from an immobile Earth with the Sun and stars revolving above us, to a solar system with planets locked in orbits, to the Sun and planets coalescing out of primeval dust cloud. Then we saw the galaxy and learned that all of that elements that make up our world came from the explosive deaths of other stars. From the galaxy we saw beyond to an even bigger universe. By studying the motion of galaxies, we learned that everything was once together in the same point and exploded outward from the Big Bang. At which stage should we bring god into the equation? And why?

fostermom's picture
Algebe! So sorry about the

Algebe! So sorry about the time difference. I am so super excited to be here, that my enthusiasm doesn't take in to account such things as time differences.

Who is to say that God didn't start the whole thing going? It isn't as if God gave us the blueprints to how He accomplished everything. The more I know of science, the more it convinces me that God is its author. Everything was created from a big bang, but then the earth was the only planet that had just enough oxygen, just enough Co2, and just enough heat and light to sustain life? Where did this life come from anyway? I am very interested in knowing your thoughts on that!

We established the time, so continue to make your day grand! Me? It's lights out! :-)

algebe's picture

"then the earth was the only planet that had just enough oxygen, just enough Co2, and just enough heat and light to sustain life?"

I think the Earth's atmosphere as we know it was created by life in the form of bacteria living in the oceans. They lived on solar energy and CO2 and released oxygen as a waste product. Before that I believe the Earth had an atmosphere of CO2, water vapor and not much else. So the Earth shaped life and life shaped the Earth. As you say, we're at just the right distance from just the right star--what scientists call the "Goldilocks zone." If the Earth was positioned differently, say in the orbit of Mars or Venus, we wouldn't be here talking about it. I think that's called the "weak anthropic principle." The strong anthropic principle states that the universe is somehow compelled to be hospitable to intelligent observers. I take the view that in a vast universe with possibly trillions of rocky planets in Goldilocks zones, the odds are in favor of creatures like us evolving, given enough billions of years.

fostermom's picture
Hey Algebe!!

Hey Algebe!!

So, over a period of time, bacteria evolved to people? So, it is by chance that the Big bang happened, and by chance that we happened to be in this "Goldilocks zone?" It is also chance that bacteria grew in the water creating life forms (thousands of different kinds), and then came to shore creating plant life, and then animals and man? That is whole lot of things left up to chance. I can't even win the lottery!

algebe's picture

" I can't even win the lottery!"
LOL. I win the lottery all the time. Lot's of little prizes. Just enough to keep me buying, so I guess that's the idea. And I think evolution is like that. You get lots of little improvements, like a slightly longer claw or a sharper tooth, and once in a while some lucky species hits the jackpot and gets eyesight or an opposable thumb. But if you look at all the milions of extinct species in the fossil record, you can see that for every winner there's an awful lot of losers in the lottery of evolution. I wouldn't expect a guided, designed process to be that wasteful.

It's the same with all those planets. For every one like ours, there are billions that didn't win the life lottery. (Although if I were a planet I might see life as an embarassing fungal infection.)

fostermom's picture
Mr. Algebe!! I do hope you

Mr. Algebe!! I do hope you are well!

I never thought of wastefulness and evolution or creation in the same sentence. I can now check that off my list :-) Perhaps there is a misconception about evolution and how much evolving actually occurs. I mean cells can evolve. Bacteria can evolve (which is why we keep having to come up with newer antibiotics). Sure, sometimes a cow is born with 5 legs, but I don't think that's evolution, it is a genetic abnormality. It is much more difficult for me to believe that a chicken will be anything but a chicken, and fish will be anything but a fish, and people will be anything but people.

Sir Random's picture
I'm quite sure that fish,

I'm quite sure that fish, chickens, and people will all be quite different from today's norm a million years from now. Even more so a billion years. Don't expect things to remain as they are, simply because that is how you are used to seeing them.

algebe's picture
Hello wifeofawonderfulman

Hello wifeofawonderfulman

Well I think that cows and chickens are partly the result of selective breeding by humans, and in that sense they have been intelligently designed to suit our needs. The same goes for dogs, sheep, horses, etc. But next time you have a chicken, look at the bones. You might notice some similarities with another group of animals; the theropod dinosaurs. Their feathers, like our hair, appear to have evolved from reptilian scales (http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/06/human-hair-bird-feathers-came-rep...). So it looks like some of the dinos that survived the meteor ended up in KFC.

Five legs wouldn't give a cow much of an advantage. But there are also genetic changes that might give an aminal an advantage in finding food, such as a longer beak to get nectar out of flowers. That animal would prosper and have more chances to breed. And eventually you get a new species. Or perhaps you get an environmental change that favors certain varieties within a species, such as climate change giving an advantage to indviduals with thicker fur or better sweat glands. I don't think humans are exempt from evolutionary change, though we may be the only species to drive our own evolution. I'm not sure what will happen when genetic technology reaches the stage at which embryo DNA can be modified to make our descendants smarter and taller, etc.

Evolution is only wasteful if you think of it in terms of intelligent design. When I think about all the extinct species and evolutionary dead-ends, I'm reminded of Thomas Edison doing hundreds of experiments until he found the right design for a light bulb. I wouldn't expect a god to make that many wrong guesses.

Dave Matson's picture


Welcome to the forum!

Many scientists are indeed Christians and some of them are among the best refuters of creationist nonsense (such as a young earth, Adam & Eve, and anti-evolution propaganda). However, us hard-core atheists often suspect that religious scientists have simply retained their indoctrination as a child. Christians grow up defending Christianity and Muslims grow up defending Islam. Universal truth cannot have geographical boundaries! The human brain is funny in that those things we accept as a child seem to be retained in a special compartment that is highly immune to questioning.

Religion begins with major doctrines that are blindly accepted in tender youth (or at a very susceptible moment in one's life), and apologists pile up supporting evidence to secure the belief for the faithful. If scientists reasoned in such a manner, assuming the truth of pet ideas and only piling on favorable evidence, science would collapse! No trip to the Moon or rovers on Mars! Scientists work in the opposite direction. They begin with observational facts and build explanatory models, working towards the great ideas. They do their best to shoot down their own models, knowing that if an error gets by someone else will be all too happy to point it out in the scientific journals. Science works, so the natural question that an atheist might raise is why the scientific method is not used in religion? Apparently, it would drain any justification for the sacred beliefs, which could never be tolerated.

The principles of good reasoning do not point to God. See my thread "Science Gives God The Bump!" (08/07/2016 18:47). Many atheists find it odd that someone who can do good work in science, where reasoning is key, and yet hold a belief that appears to be the result of poor reasoning. To begin with, "God" is not an explanation. "God" is a story, one of many god stories. A story just paints the picture without proof. A story, of course, might still be true but it is not an explanation. An explanation moves from the known to the unknown. You begin with established principles and either build a credible explanatory model for a set of facts or, else, you show how something works by breaking it down into interacting parts. Good reasoning is built around scientific explanations, and reason has never made a decent case for God as many theologians will admit. Why would they admit this if easy proofs were on the shelf?

"Sure, sometimes a cow is born with 5 legs, but I don't think that's evolution, it is a genetic abnormality. It is much more difficult for me to believe that a chicken will be anything but a chicken, and fish will be anything but a fish, and people will be anything but people." --Wifeofawonderfulman

Wifeofawonderfulman, you are losing yourself in the bark of a tree and missing the forest! Look carefully at the fossil record. Look at comparative studies of DNA or even cytochrome C. Consider carefully the message of comparative anatomy. Ask yourself what the BEST meaning of vestigial organs are. Where do "genetic throwbacks" come from? Why are plants and animals distributed the way they are in the world? So many trees to look at and you are lost in the bark! The forest screams "evolution" in no uncertain terms. An inability to imagine how something might have evolved is not about to uproot these great trees! That you imagine rabbits must always have been rabbits is due to your limited understanding of evolution and most certainly will not uproot those great trees.

Saying that God created the Big Bang is merely a story--not an explanation. Credibility requires an explanation. A man who knows only 10 facts can find all kinds of reasons for believing in a pet idea, often with certainty. But a man who knows 100 facts is much more restrained and cautious. The man who knows a 1000 facts is humbled by how little he really knows! Before you rush in with your god-justification, you should ask yourself where you stand on this scale. Question authority, by all means, but understand that you will be wrong often. Religious certainty (or any certainty assumed unjustly) does not go well with a serious pursuit of truth. If you choose to follow the truth be prepared to give up your pet beliefs. You go where truth leads, not where you think it should go.

chimp3's picture
Francis Collins is a

Wife: Francis Collins is a scientist\ fundamentalist christian that directed the human genome project. He says that Christians that do not accept the fact of evolution do a disservice to both faith and the truth.

By the way, I am also a nurse. I do feel that many nurses are superstitious and this interferes with their ability to think critically. Practice makes perfect!

Addendum: I think since you are espousing your own ideas you might be worthy of creating an online identity that expresses your individual self separate from your yoke mate.

fostermom's picture
Francis!!! Hello, very nice

Francis!!! Hello, very nice to meet a fellow nurse! What do you mean when you say, superstitious? I want to make sure that I address your points correctly!

I am my own person, but I am also very privileged to be married to the most wonderful man! It is difficult to think of a name quickly, so I thought about what I loved....I love my husband! :-) Thanks for the suggestion!

chimp3's picture
By superstitious I mean a

By superstitious I mean a belief in ghosts, miraculous healing, or that deaths are organized in sets of three.

Kataclismic's picture
There was no one excluded

There was no one excluded from my thread, everyone who believes in a personal god and still understands enough geometry to realize we live on a spherical planet is subject to this scrutiny.

I find the name "wfeofawonderfulman" rather disheartening. Could you not come up with something to describe you? Are you defined by your 'wonderful' husband?

It's perfectly obvious why you must believe in a god, you can't even have your own opinion without a man around.

fostermom's picture
Hello Kataclismic! I hope you

Hello Kataclismic! I hope you are well!

I am very happy that I am not excluded :-)

I also don't understand the problem with my name. I definitely am my own person, and am capable of many things. I was just thinking about my favorite things in this world, aside from God, it is being a wife. I thought of it as more of a compliment, than a detriment.

charvakheresy's picture
@ John- In the paper this

@ John- In the paper this morning I read of a 13 year old girl from the Jain religion. who expired. She was fasting continuously for 68 days.

Her religion and its people hailed her as a beautiful soul and her parents as great humans. The rest of reasonable people want these parents arrested.

Are you telling me that 13 year old girl chasing to fast until death is a moral dilemma? or is it stupidity?

algebe's picture


This from the BBC:
"Her father's guru advised the family that if she fasted for 68 days, his business would be profitable," activist Achyut Rao told BBC Hindi."

Any parent or religious "guru" who encourages a child to fast should be charged with cruelty (murder in this case).

charvakheresy's picture
Yes but the theist sees this

Yes but the theist sees this as a moral dilemma to be deBATED.... "one mans ...." the problem with these theists is that they are not satisfied with their own delusion. Their goal is to make sure everyone else buys into their delusion as well. In fact they are more concerned with how many others buy into their nonsense, makes them seem more credible. Idiots

CompelledUnbeliever's picture
I have found the more I learn

I have found the more I learn, the more I find out I am wrong about my previous "right" beliefs. It is difficult for me to say in know he truth as, as I learn I find out that there are many "truths" out there. The only truth I have not found to be wrong is that there is no god, it is a myth that people want to be.true.

CompelledUnbeliever's picture
I have found the more I learn

I have found the more I learn, the more I find out I am wrong about my previous "right" beliefs. It is difficult for me to say in know he truth as, as I learn I find out that there are many "truths" out there. The only truth I have not found to be wrong is that there is no god, it is a myth that people want to be.true.


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