ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:
The teaching of literal hellfire torment is commonplace in Christendom and non-Christian religions. This teaching defames the Creator and portrays him as a sadist who tortures people in flames of fire for all eternity—as punishment for wrongdoing committed during the relatively brief human lifespan. The hellfire dogma was brought into Christianity by the Roman Catholics who copied it from pagan religions. (Pagans are those who do not worship the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible.)
The Bible makes it clear as to how God views the ritual burning of people. Jehovah ended up rejecting the ancient Israelites after they got involved with pagan worship, which included burning their children to death.
"And they [the Israelites/sons of Judah] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that HAD NOT COME UP INTO MY HEART." (Jeremiah 7:31)
"{58} And they kept offending him with their high places, and with their graven images they kept inciting him to jealousy. {59} God heard and got to be furious, and he condemned Israel very much. {60} And he finally forsook the tabernacle of Shiloh, the tent in which he resided among earthling men." (Psalms 78:58-60)
The scriptures indicate that hell is nothing more than mankind’s common grave. Proof of this is provided by a verse of scripture in the Bible, which no hellfire-believing Christian can explain away. I am referring to the scripture that says Jesus Christ--the epitome of a perfect, sinless, and obedient man--died and went to hell.
"{21} In fact, to this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving you a model for you to follow his steps closely. {22} He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth." (1 Peter 2:21-22)
"He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HELL, neither his flesh did see corruption." (Acts 2:31--King James Version)
DISCUSSION QUESTIONS:
1. Are there scriptures in the Bible to support the teaching of literal hellfire torment? If so, quote up to four (4) scriptures and include Bible book, chapter, and verse. Then bold or italicize or colorize the words within the quotations that you are focusing on, and explain why you believe the scriptures you present are talking about literal hellfire torment.
2. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did Jehovah command the ancient Israelites to burn anyone in the fire?
3. According to Jeremiah 7:31, did the burning of people come to God's heart?
4. According to those who believe in literal hellfire torment, hell is a place for people who are wicked. So why did Jesus spend three days in hell, considering what's said at 1 Peter 2:22?
5. If hell is a place of literal torment, why is it that the word "hell" also means "Sheol" and "Hades" and "the grave"?
6. When people are being tortured in hellfire, wouldn't they have to KNOW or be conscious/aware of the fact that they are being burned? I mean to say, what's the point of punishing people in hell if they aren't even aware?
7. Does the Bible teach that humans have an immortal soul that survives the death of the person so that the soul can then be burned in eternal flames? If so, please present scriptures to this effect to prove it, and follow the steps indicated at Question #1.
8. Those who believe in literal eternal torment say that the person's soul is being burned forever. What is the soul? Are animals souls also or is this only for humans?
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Hi~ I'm new to this group, so I'm not au fait with how everything works here just yet. Do you find many non believers interested in defending theist ideas? Perhaps you're looking to engage other christians who disagree with your views. Interestingly enough, that recently came up in a recent conversation on twitter. They agree with you, I think. Not entirely sure yet. They refer to hell as "separation from god".
I understand you wanting to "rebrand" god in a more loving light, it makes a much better sell. How do you explain the global extinction event known as the great flood though? Also, I would think you would find the old testament to be largely problematic from an image standpoint.
SIGMUND_FRAUD: I understand you wanting to "rebrand" god in a more loving light, it makes a much better sell. How do you explain the global extinction event known as the great flood though? Also, I would think you would find the old testament to be largely problematic from an image standpoint.
ALTER2EGO: My intent is to prove--with scripture--that the idea of literal eternal hellfire torment is not a Bible teaching.
QUESTION #1 SIGMUND_FRAUD: If people told lies about you and painted you as a sadist, and then someone showed up with evidence that proves you are not guilty of what you are accused of, which of the following is true?
A. The person who cleared your name with evidence is attempting to "make a much better sell."
B. The person who cleared your name is simply setting the record straight.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
"ALTER2EGO: My intent is to prove--with scripture--that the idea of literal eternal hellfire torment is not a Bible teaching."
So it is a sales tool after all. Not very effective yet, I'd say. I'm guessing you're not a biblical literalist or an inerrancy advocate. When you claim language to be figurative or poetic then you leave it open to personal interpretation. Text loses its authority and meaning that way. The problem becomes whose version is the correct one. Jim Jones followers could tell you about that.
"QUESTION #1 SIGMUND_FRAUD: If people told lies about you and painted you as a sadist, and then someone showed up with evidence that proves you are not guilty of what you are accused of, which of the following is true?"
I suppose, but you haven't proven anything yet. You certainly haven't explained why god would kill off an entire human population in a context that would make me think kindly of him. Much more, "no more mister nice guy" than loving savior, wouldn't you say?
Urm, okay
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
Yet I find the biblical god just as unworthy of praise if hell were only a time out without his absence because of the insanely cruelty he committed in that Bronze Age text.
ELLIE HARRIS: Urm, okay
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
ALTER2EGO: I asked for verses that are talking about literal hellfire torment. Instead of that, you are giving me a verse from Revelation that, according to context, is presenting figurative speech. In fact the verse comes right out and informs the reader that the “fiery lake of burning sulfur” is equivalent to the second death. Is it possible you do not realize that death is the opposite of life? The second death refers to death from which there is no hope of a resurrection.
ELLIE HARRIS: Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.
ALTER2EGO: You are again using a verse that is using symbolic speech. Whenever the Bible uses “fire” in symbolic language, it is with reference to eternal destruction or cleansing. The fact that Jude 1:7 made reference to Sodom and Gomorrah is one of the clues. The people of Sodom and Gomorrah were annihilated aka they ceased to exist after fire and sulfur was rained down on them. At no time did the Bible say that they burned for eternity. It said they were destroyed. So in their case, they received the punishment of eternal fire aka the second death from which there is no resurrection.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
"Is LITERAL Hellfire Torment A Bible Teaching?"
You mean along with literal talking animals, literal commands to take women as spoils of war, literal instructions for when slavery is OK, among countless other literally stupid teachings? Sure, why not? Doesn't matter in the least.
So any verses found in the text that confirm torment of hell are going to be classified as not "literal." Fine by me. It still doesn't negate punishments levied out in life by a god decides them without any chance of rebuttal. Still it equals a tyrant.
By the way your comments on Rev.21:8 show that you are ignoring how cruel that god would be, if such a thing existed.
"it is a reference to eternal destruction or cleansing." Do you grasp how sick that sounds!? But I get that things in the bible that you find morally abhorrent or uncomfortable are merely symbolic or allegory of how sick that gawwd would be.
ELLIE HARRIS:
So any verses found in the text that confirm torment of hell are going to be classified as not "literal." Fine by me. It still doesn't negate punishments levied out in life by a god decides them without any chance of rebuttal. Still it equals a tyrant.
By the way your comments on Rev.21:8 show that you are ignoring how cruel that god would be, if such a thing existed.
ALTER2EGO: There are no verses in the Judeo-Christian Bible that CONFIRM hellfire torment as literal. You quoted two verses that you figured would win your argument: Revelation 21:8 and Jude 1:7. I showed you where the verse were using figurative speech. It is not my problem that you cannot accept the explanation.
”In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.” (Jude 1:7)
The context to Jude 1:7 is Sodom and Gomorrah in which the Bible says the people were annihilated. People that are annihilated no longer exist. The verse then says that what happened to those people (annihilation) serves as an example to those who “suffer the punishment of eternal fire”. In other words, Jude 1:7 is talking about annihilation of the wicked.
Likewise, the context to Revelation 21:8, indicates the lake of fire is not literal.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
What part of a god punishing his creations for actions he/she knew they'd commit are you not getting?
The god of the bible punishes those that don't worship it. Now you can cherry-pick how it doe this but it still makes this god a tyrant.
The counters to Ellie's points smack of special pleading.
Mark9:42-48
42And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea. 43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Seems Jesus had a pretty good idea of how horrible Hell was.
You can't simply make everything that's not convenient to you be an allegory.
Matthew 13:36-43
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. 37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; 38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; 39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. 40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matthew 13:47-50
47Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: 48Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 50And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
I'm struggling to see how you can spin this or scoff at people for believing that Jesus is shown to be repeatedly describing a place of eternal fire and punishment for those who do not follow him.
What is astonishing is how the perfect word of god seems to need constantly explaining away as not horrible when it manifestly IS horrible. There are more words written to explain why the Bible doesn't mean what it says than about twenty Bibles.
Why is it such a crappy record of the deeds and will of god etc if it needs to be rewritten by apologists all the time? And those apologists seem to say so many different things?
ELLIE HARRIS:
What part of a god punishing his creations for actions he/she knew they'd commit are you not getting?
The god of the bible punishes those that don't worship it. Now you can cherry-pick how it doe this but it still makes this god a tyrant.
ALTER2EGO:
You presented Revelation 21:8 and Jude 1:7 as proof of literal hellfire torment; remember? I demonstrated that neither of those two verses are referring to literal hellfire torment. Instead they are referring to annihilation. Now you are changing the goal post and arguing that God has no right annihilating people.
As you see it, God should allow the wicked to keep living so that they can stick around and make trouble for those who really want to live according to Jehovah’s guidelines. Even imperfect human governments pass laws to punish the wicked in their attempt to give justice to the victims of the wicked. But according to you, Almighty God who created all things does not have the right to destroy the wicked.
This thread is about literal hellfire torment NOT being a Bible teaching, not about your opinion that the Creator has no right to destroy the wicked. Your opinion is yours and yours alone. I am only interested in scriptures that people THINK are proof of literal hellfire torment.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
MIGUEL PHOSTEUR:
Mark9:42-48
Seems Jesus had a pretty good idea of how horrible Hell was.
You can't simply make everything that's not convenient to you be an allegory.
ALTER2EGO:
The context to the verses you quoted from Mark 9:42-48, with Jesus Christ as the speaker, are parts of a parable/illustration. The Bible says Jesus Christ always taught by means of illustrations. Notice the words in all caps within the quotation below.
"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, WITHOUT AN ILLUSTRATION HE WOULD NOT SPEAK TO THEM;" (Matthew 13:34)
Illustrations are never literal.
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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
"Now you are changing the goal post and arguing that God has no right annihilating people."
No I'm simply restating that any form of punishment, whether a slap on the wrist or eternal torture, is in and of itself injustice. If it punishes what his alknowing ass knew would happen then god is simply a tyrant. No matter how you twist biblical stories to ignore that, it's still very obvious.
Oh and by the way, if gawwd made such an important message to the human species so easy to be misinterpreted then he seems pretty inept.
ALTER2EGO (previous comment):
Now you are changing the goal post and arguing that God has no right annihilating people.
ELLIE HARRIS (current response):
No I'm simply restating that any form of punishment, whether a slap on the wrist or eternal torture, is in and of itself injustice. If it punishes what his alknowing ass knew would happen then god is simply a tyrant. No matter how you twist biblical stories to ignore that, it's still very obvious.
ALTER2EGO: (current response)
In your initial comment when you presented Revelation 21:8 and Jude 1:7, this was what you said:
ELLIE HARRIS (very first comment)
"Yet I find the biblical god just as unworthy of praise if hell were only a time out without his absence because of the insanely cruelty he committed in that Bronze Age text."
ALTER2EGO (current response):
You said the above AFTER you quoted Revelation 21:8 and Jude 1:7, because you were convinced those verses would support your claim that literal hellfire torment is in the Bible. When I informed you that both of those verses are examples of figurative speech and I provided an explanation of why, that is when you decided to change the goal post. At that point, you figured that your best bet is to argue that Jehovah has no right punishing the wicked in any manner at all, to quote you: “whether a slap on the wrist or eternal torture.”
QUESTION #1 to ELLIE HARRIS: If someone that you know is a criminal informs they intend to commit a crime against your loved ones, are you telling this forum that you would not phone the police to have the individual arrested, because you believe wrongdoers should not get so much as “a slap on the wrist”?
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
"QUESTION #1 to ELLIE HARRIS: If someone that you know is a criminal informs they intend to commit a crime against your loved ones, are you telling this forum that you would not phone the police to have the individual arrested, because you believe wrongdoers should not get so much as “a slap on the wrist”?"-
Yes, a phone call to the cops is comparable to a god punishing millions of it's own creations because he didn't create them to do exactly as he commands. Lmao.
Oh and by the way, again, if gawwd made such an important message to the human species so easy to be misinterpreted then he seems pretty inept.
ALTER2EGO (previous comment):
QUESTION #1 to ELLIE HARRIS: If someone that you know is a criminal informs they intend to commit a crime against your loved ones, are you telling this forum that you would not phone the police to have the individual arrested, because you believe wrongdoers should not get so much as “a slap on the wrist”?"-
ELLIE HARRIS (current response):
Yes, a phone call to the cops is comparable to a god punishing millions of it's own creations because he didn't create them to do exactly as he commands. Lmao.
ALTER2EGO (current response):
And what do you expect the police to do, except INTERVENE and PUNISH the individual who threatened to harm your loved one? Yet, you are up in here complaining that God has no right to INTERVENE and PUNISH the wicked.
I see hypocrisy.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
ELLIE HARRIS (last response):
Oh and by the way, again, if gawwd made such an important message to the human species so easy to be misinterpreted then he seems pretty inept.
ALTER2EGO:
You posted the above already, and I ignored it the first time for the following reason: You are changing the goal post yet again. Notice your modus operandi below.
ELLIE HARRIS, GOAL POST #1 -- Prove literal hellfire torment is in the Judeo-Christian Bible:
**Revelation 21:8 -- ". . . the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
Jude 1:7 -- "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire."**
ALTER2EGO's RESPONSE to GOAL POST #1:
Based upon the context of Revelation 21:8 and Jude 1:7, you are quoting scriptures that are using figurative speech. Almost the entire book of Revelation is written in symbolic language. Jude 1:7 used Sodom and Gomorrah where, according to the Bible, the people were annihilated. So the entire verse is talking about annihilation of the wicked.
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ELLIE HARRIS, GOAL POST #2 -- Since Revelation 21:8 and Jude 1:7 did not pan out regarding literal hellfire torment, I will argue that God has no right to punish anyone regardless of what level of wrongdoing they commit:
**No I'm simply restating that any form of punishment, whether a slap on the wrist or eternal torture, is in and of itself injustice.**
ALTER2EGO's RESPONSE to GOAL POST #2:
As you see it, God should allow the wicked to keep living so that they can stick around and make trouble for those who really want to live according to Jehovah’s guidelines. Even imperfect human governments pass laws to punish the wicked in their attempt to give justice to the victims of the wicked. But according to you, Almighty God who created all things does not have the right to destroy the wicked.
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ELLIE HARRIS, GOAL POST #3 -- I am determined to blame the Judeo-Christian God for something--ANYTHING.
(1) My two cherry-picked verses (Revelation 21:8 and Jude 1:7) were debunked, because the context indicates they are using figurative speech; AND
(2) My argument that God should not punish the wicked with so much as a slap on the wrist has been exposed as ridiculous--since the wicked, if spared, would continue to create difficulties for the innocent.
(3) I've got it. I will blame God for my reading shortcomings.
**"Oh and by the way, if gawwd made such an important message to the human species so easy to be misinterpreted then he seems pretty inept."**
ALTER2EGO's RESPONSE to GOAL POST #3:
Really? It is God's fault that people read the Bible and cherry-pick words, while they ignore context, with the result that they do not get the correct understanding of what they are reading? Since when did Jehovah become responsible for anybody's poor reading-comprehension skills?
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
So, Ego, you're saying that your interpretation of this book in its current form, is the one and only correct one? That you, over many, many others over centuries, have the reading comprehensive skill necessary to determine the 'correct' meaning of the words and messages? That the English translation of translations of translations of translations got it spot on? That centuries of copyists never changed anything? That everyone who does not hear from it the same thing you do is incorrect? That you could never err in your interpretation?
No answers to these questions Ego? Hmmmm?
"ALTER2EGO's RESPONSE to GOAL POST #3:
Really? It is God's fault that people read the Bible and cherry-pick words, while they ignore context, with the result that they do not get the correct understanding of what they are reading? Since when did Jehovah become responsible for anybody's poor reading-comprehension skills?"-
Yes it's clearly the god's fault if it exist. Since it punishes those that do not follow it or that do not follow it correctly.
So again if gawwd didn't make his message clear enough to even a person with "poor reading skills," then he's inept or he just didn't care enough to ensure that it could be understood.
You can add as many ad homs as you want but that doesn't change that fact..
"As you see it, God should allow the wicked to keep living so that they can stick around and make trouble for those who really want to live according to Jehovah’s guidelines." Well I wear mixed fabrics and shave yet he hasn't struck me down yet. Now let's address your sentence-
1) As I see it your god is far to improbable to exist.
2) If it did then it has sent people to slaughter whole villages and kill babies. Thus even if it existed it's behavior shows that it's concept of wicked or righteous are not something I'd want to adhere or aspire to.
3) If he's powerful enough to kill the wicked then given his attributes (from your bible) he can prevent them from becoming wicked then. But either cannot, will not, or doesn't care to.
The parts I quoted were Jesus' explanations to his disciples of the meaning of his parable. They are explicit descriptions of what his parables meant. I was very very careful in the verse I selected. You are simply cherry picking your way to a sanitised version of the Bible that fits your own prejudices so you can ignore millennia of church dogma and not appear to be supporting a monstrous and vile threat-based message.
I would love to know where you are getting this extra information from about "The Creator" that you are comparing the church dogma to and finding it wanting. Perhaps you are just making it up in your head? Just a thought.
"I am only interested in scriptures that people THINK are proof of literal hellfire torment."
Not that it matters, but this forum seems like an odd place to pursue that interest. It's sort of like arguing about whether the pot o' gold at the end of the rainbow is literal or figurative on a forum for people who don't believe in leprechauns. Even if you successfully make your point, it matters only within the confines of Irish folklore that your audience doesn't consider credible in the first place.
Not that I'm complaining - theological gymnastics are often entertaining, especially for those of us who have been theists and are familiar with the concepts.
"ALTER2EGO's RESPONSE to GOAL POST #3 (previous response):
Really? It is God's fault that people read the Bible and cherry-pick words, while they ignore context, with the result that they do not get the correct understanding of what they are reading? Since when did Jehovah become responsible for anybody's poor reading-comprehension skills?"
ELLIE HARRIS:
Yes it's clearly the god's fault if it exist. Since it punishes those that do not follow it or that do not follow it correctly.
So again if gawwd didn't make his message clear enough to even a person with "poor reading skills," then he's inept or he just didn't care enough to ensure that it could be understood.
ALTER2EGO (current response):
The fact that I read the same two verses (Revelation 21:8 and Jude 1:7) and I was able to see they were not talking literal hellfire torment is evidence that the Bible is not the problem. The problem is with the reader who ignores context (surrounding words, verses, and chapters).
That is what hellfire howlers always do. They cherry pick words from entire chapters and ignore everything else that makes up the context. Then they end up not understanding what they are reading and blame others for their poor reading habits.
Ignoring context is a CHOICE that people make. They CHOOSE to cherry pick only the words that line up with their personal ideology. Notice that I wrote the words “choice” and “choose” in all caps.
People are responsible for their poor choices.
You need to stop trying to pass the buck.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
MIGUEL PHOSTEUR:
The parts I quoted were Jesus' explanations to his disciples of the meaning of his parable. They are explicit descriptions of what his parables meant. I was very very careful in the verse I selected.
ALTER2EGO:
What was Jesus Christ doing at Mark 9:42-48--which you insist is literal because he was explaining the parable? Was he not teaching? The Bible says Jesus always used illustrations when he was teaching people.
"All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds by illustrations. Indeed, WITHOUT AN ILLUSTRATION HE WOULD NOT SPEAK TO THEM;" (Matthew 13:34)
Not only that, but within the same Mark chapter 9 that you quoted from, just before Jesus Christ began teaching his apostles at verses 42-48, the Apostle John referred to him as “Teacher” at verse 38. That is the clue that they were getting ready to be taught.
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MIGUEL PHOSTEUR:
You are simply cherry picking your way to a sanitised version of the Bible that fits your own prejudices so you can ignore millennia of church dogma and not appear to be supporting a monstrous and vile threat-based message.
ALTER2EGO:
While we are on the topic of cherry picking, that is exactly what you did when you stopped your quotation at Mark 9:48. You deliberately ignored the very next verse that followed verse 48. At Mark 9:49, Jesus Christ told his disciples the following:
“For everyone must be salted with fire.” (Mark 9:49)
The “everyone” includes his faithful disciples, which is the clue that the fire is not literal. If it were literal, it would mean that even Jesus’ faithful disciples would burn in literal hellfire.
Whenever the Bible uses “fire” in figurative speech, it is with reference either to cleansing/being corrected/repentance (as indicated at Mark 9:49) or else it is with reference to everlasting destruction.
________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." (Psalms 83:18)
"Ignoring context is a CHOICE that people make. They CHOOSE to cherry pick only the words that line up with their personal ideology. Notice that I wrote the words “choice” and “choose” in all caps."-
Alright, you see I've ignored your "it's allegory or contextual" religious apologetics to focus you on the fact that your Jehovah CHOSE to give a flawed message to his creations. The idea that a god could create the stars and yet be unable to create a simple freaking book to clearly explain himself to his creations is something you are ducking.
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