When we are very young, our parents try to guide us to what they believe is right and wrong. They teach us their sense of morality. As we get older we build on that process and adopt what we personally believe to be right or wrong. When one has grown to maturity, one shouldn't need anyone else or anything else to determine what is right or wrong. If you need a bible to guide you to what is right and what is wrong, you haven't matured into a responsible adult.
I don't know every law on the books, but I know what is right and what is wrong. I do my level best to obey the law unless that law is unjust. Even if the law is unjust I don't go out of my way to defy it.
A bible doesn't in any way determine morality. Society dictates morality. Morality is subjective to the society that creates it. That is a historical fact!
I am so sick and tired of christians claiming that morality comes from their god. It doesn't. And I am fucking pissed that they try and force their morality on everyone else. They have no right to do so. They are immoral for doing so. How can denying an individual their Constitutional rights be moral just because YOU (christian) believe that YOUR bible (your interpretation) gives you the right to oppress other people?
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well I as a Christian get my morals from the bible, what happened if you were living during the time of the Nazis then you would try there bad type of morality, or say the Russian and Chinese revolutions would you go along with command to kill and rape or yourself be raped and killed so I disagree that we take our morals from our culture and society at large. What people need to live life peacefully is objective moral values. and I say it is the Judean-Christian fAith that allows this.
There is no such thing as objective morality. How many fucking times does this have to be proven? Sheesh!
You cite Nazi morality. Good example. Nazis murdered jews out of a sense of CHRISTIAN-FUCKING-MORALITY!
Fucking unbelievable!
Genocide of the Native Americans...CHRISTIAN MORALITY at work.
Charlemagne forced conversion of death...CHRISTIAN MORALITY at work.
Christian morality has accounted for the most murders, rapes, child molesting, slavery, bigotry, racism, prejudice, hatred, theft, and crimes against humanity than any other reason.
Hey, and the Spanish Inquisition! (and other Christian medieval inquisitions before that)... Christian morality at work... for hundreds of years.
P.S. I bet no-one was expecting that (joke for Monty Python's fans).
"well I as a Christian get my morals from the bible,"
Do you think slavery, rape, genocide, and ethnic cleansing are moral then? The bible certainly does. How about eating shellfish and wearing blended fabrics, you must think these are verboten? The bible certainly does.
"what happened if you were living during the time of the Nazis "
A christian country, over 94% of Germans identified as Christians in a 1939 census. Where exactly do you think Hitlers virulent antisemitism came from exactly, if not from centuries of christianity? You might also ponder why the RCC formed a concordat with the Nazis, or why the only high ranking Nazis ever excommunicated (Goebbels), was posthumously excommunicated for marrying a divorced protestant.
" or say the Russian and Chinese revolutions would you go along with command to kill and rape or yourself be raped and killed so I disagree that we take our morals from our culture and society at large."
So the people in those societies largely resisted the cultural forces that, and that 'evil' was averted then? Do think about it...
"What people need to live life peacefully is objective moral values. and **I say** it is the Judean-Christian fAith that allows this."
Except that's a subjective opinion isn't it, unless of course you can objectively demonstrate evidence for your claim, and you haven't even pretended to have any. This would also be impressive given you just cited one of the most evil regimes in human history, Nazism which rose to power and perpetrated it's evil genocide in a country that was almost exclusively christian.
"What people need to live life peacefully is objective value and I say it is the Judean-Christian faith that allow this."
Ok Devout Christian, before I pick apart this statement, I would like you to confirm somethings.
I'm list some things, I'll number them and I'd like you reply with the numbers that you believe are morally acceptable l.
1 Cannibalism
2 Slavery
3 Murder
4 Genocide
5 Rape
6 Punishing rape victims by being stoned to death or be forced to marry their rapist.
7 Incest
8 Human sacrifice
hia agnostic prophet: Well of course none of the above; However like i said repeatedly in these threads that is not basic christianity!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Even though that may have played a part in christianitys history and may be occurring even as i post this, There is the correct way of practicing one`s christian faith and of course the opposite. My walk is humility love patience kindness and self control and forgiveness. Not at all what you sited above..
"Well of course none of the above; However like i said repeatedly in these threads that is not basic christianity"
You can post as many exclamation marks as you like, subjectively deciding that only people who behave well are Christians is as dishonest as it is stupid. Again this is the No True Scotsman fallacy, look it up, and you may understand why your claim is so absurdly fallacious. Or don't of course, join the Breezy school of blinkered apologetics that has no interest in the truth.
"Even though that may have played a part in christianitys history and may be occurring even as i post this, There is the correct way of practicing one`s christian faith"
It's just as well grammar isn't a sin or you'd be going straight to hell. However your claim is the same as your previous sentence. Christian history is based on Christian belief, if an omniscient omnipotent perfectly moral deity can't communicate well enough to stop Fred Phelps from using the bible to spread bigotry and hate then what does that suggest to you? It certainyl doesn;t suggest the fault is with the fallible evolved apes your deity is claimed to have 'created' as it's pets.
"My walk is humility love patience kindness and self control and forgiveness. Not at all what you sited above.."
Yes that wreaks of humility, but paradoxically your bible endorses slavery, as does Jesus if you believe the new testament. Also it condones ethnic cleansing, sex trafficking young women and girls, genocide, and of course rape. and your deity tortured a new born baby to death because it was conceived in an adulterous affair. It's hard to blame the pets for their failures if the perfect deity behaves like that.
I think you mean cited as well, not sited. Though it was deliberately placed there to be sure.
Tell me why is is dishonest and stupid to behave properly? I`m saying don`t look back jesus said look not on your sins but on the faith of your church. Paul said we are new creatures, The fallacy that your committing Sheldon is that you keep looking back at the past, Forget the past and see and critique the christianity of today, As far as Fred Phelps is concerned, he definitely is not living out his christian faith correctly, You see I call a spade a spade regardless the person. As for the other vises you stated that again is not true christianity and certainly not moral, My church is a loving church where we don`t practice those vises.nor do we encourage that kind of behavior.
Actually, by definition, those things are fundamental. If you're a fundamentalist you would take the bible literally. If you do you're a monster. If you don't you're not a fundamentalist and not a monster. But you can't have both. You can't believe that the bible is the absolute authority on morality and say that the things therein are immoral or that there are exceptions. You want your meal hot or you want your meal cold... Not both.
@Devout Christian: "Russian and Chinese revolutions would you go along with command to kill and rape or yourself be raped"
What are you talking about? There was plenty of killing and raping by opposing Catholic and Protestant forces during the 30 Years War. The Catholic-endorsed holocaust by the Conquistadors in South America also involved quite a bit of murder and rape. In China, the Taiping Rebellion, which was started by a man who claimed to be the brother of Jesus, claimed an estimated an 100 million lives.
But let's look at Russia and China after the Communist revolutions. In both countries, the revolutions were preceded by centuries of oppression, murder and rape by religiously endorsed despots in the form of emperors who were given divine status by religion. China's emperor was the "son of heaven," while the Russian Czar was "anointed by god" through the Orthodox church. Thanks to religion, including Christianity, both nations were primed to accept despotic rule by Stalin and Mao.
Religion has always been the enemy of freedom and decency.
Jesus look not on your sins but on the the faith of the church, We as christians don`t look behind us we look forward we persevere , with love forgiveness and humility among others. So are you telling me that no one was killed by stalin, Are you trying to infer that? Or as the Chinese as well we all know what they did to the priest the clergy and the buildings, they utterly pillaged and ransacked everynes place of worship You should read up on the effects that the russian and chinese revolutions had on the church.
DC
So you like to run for the past? Christianity has a bloody past, full of murder, rape, and genocide. All the bloody wars were fought in the name of god and jesus. The Chinese and Russian revolutions banned religion because of what it had done to the people of those countries.
@Xenoview, that's not exactly true. Mao and Stalin changed traditional religion into a political one. Those leaders, as Kim Jong Un is in North Korea, were god-like, and this issue has been addressed in several threads in the past: Those regimes copied and adapted religious systems, including indoctrination tools, although they came up with their own magical tales, so they couldn't be considered atheist at all.
P.S. And in Russia, even in Communist times, Orthodox Church has always been privileged.
@Flamencabot: "As Kim Jong Un is in North Korea"
Kim Jong Un isn't even the president of North Korea. That title belongs to his dead grandfather, Kim Il Sung, who is the "Eternal President of the Republic." His dead father, Kim Jong Il, is now the "Eternal Chairman". Kim Jong Un [edited] is officially head of the armed forces.
So North Korea now has a Trinitarian religion.
You are trying to persevere against yourself. Where is the sense in that? The bible tells you that you are worthless apart from your god. I guess if jesus is the example for proper fatherhood I need to tell my children they are worthless apart from me until they are old enough to be worthless without jesus.
You are not God nor Jesus Christ, It would be a good thing if you raised your children to be believers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Everyone and I mean EVERYONE who does not have and proclaim Jesus Christ as lord and Savior of there life is lost. There I say it to you and the whole world.Now is the time while we have it to repent and believe and live a life worthy to ones calling. You as a farther should be the spiritual leader in your family the director of morals, You should lead what god has entrusted you with your family. Unless you do your family is going to come apart.
Doesn't jesus call himself a good father? Isn't he the example that everyone is supposed to follow? You need to tempt your children then abandon them and let them fall. Then when they have fallen you need to curse them and make them pay penance to you for "their" failure.
the apostle paul and the book of proverbs cites, it instructs it`s readers how to raise up a child. Start when the child is young and they will not depart from it. The faith is very important in a childs life, I see children how happy and motivated to have this faith. Studies show that sociologist state that people who have faith live longer and are much more happier.So it goes for married couples they live much longer then non believers .
“So it goes for married couples they live much longer then (sic) non believers .”
Non believers don’t get married?
By putting adult "faith" on a child you are stealing their innocence. Abusing them with adult themes and lies.
DC
Forcing young children to be religious is wrong. Have you seen the movie Jesus Camp? That movie was showing how christianity brainwashes children. If christianity is so great for marriage, why do so many christians get divorces?
Devout Christian: "You as a farther should be the spiritual leader in your family the director of morals"
My children are both in their 30s now, and we have two grandchildren. We have very close family bonds, and we all help and support each other. My children both have inquiring minds and a very strong sense of fairness and justice. My wife and I have shared leadership of our family for 44 years so far, all without any help from imaginary friends or magic books.
During that time, I've seen plenty of religious families disintegrate, especially when the children rebel against constant indoctrination in a hypocritical death cult.
You can't be honest with your children and teach them Christian lies at the same time.
@Devout Christian: "You as a farther should be the spiritual leader in your family the director of morals".
Congratulations on writing the most backward and stupid sentence of the month.
My wife and I have shared leadership of our family for 44 years so far (...) One big "Olé" to your posts in this thread, @Algebe.
@Devout Christian: "You should read up on the effects that the russian and chinese revolutions had on the church."
And you should read up on the effects of the Christian church on the lives of pre-revolution Russian peasants.
I never said or implied that no-one was killed by Stalin. What I said was that the Christian religion created an environment in which a monster like Stalin could step into the shoes of the god-ordained Czar. You should also be aware that Stalin was trained for the Orthodox priesthood, so I guess he knew a little bit about power and manipulation.
The church has always been a friend to tyrants and oppressors.
what about the litany of the saints like saint francis of assi or saint anthony or saint terese of liseux these were not tyrants and oppressors in fact they sacrificed everything they renounced alot for christ. just look at russia and china do you remember timrmerman square and how dissidents who only wanted freedom were brutalized and some killed.that was your peace keeping communist China.THats why churches have to be started in peoples homes they have to go underground also try sending bibles to potential believers they are confiscated and put in jail. So attractive is your communist system.Lets look at Russia and how terrified people are of the KGB, How they spy on people. I can go on and on discussing the atrocities of both of these countries.
@Devout Christian: t"imrmerman square"
LOL. Bad as it was, Tiananmen Square.was nothing compared with the history of church atrocities, such as the slaughter of the Cathars, the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre, or the horrors of Rwanda and the Balkans to name just a few. The KGB? Amateurs compared with the various church inquisitions.
What did Thérèse of Lisieux ever do for anyone? She spent her life as a cloistered Carmelite. St. Francis got religious mania after a life of debauchery, and Saint Anthony died from ergotism, which is caused by fungi on grain crops and produces hallucinations. I'm sure ergot was responsible for many saintly visions of Jesus and Mary.
You realise the vast majority of germans before, during and after Nazism were Christian? Right?!
Blimey!
If morality was absolute and came from god, then every scripture that is believed to be written by god should not in any case be controversial and should not be open for human interpretation.Everyone who believes the scriptures to be the 'word' of god should take everything that's written at face value.But the fact that they have to cherry-pick from their own scriptures, and make excuses of not having the right context or accusing you of misinterpretation, everytime they are presented with awful verses like those condoning slavery, rape, murder etc, clearly demonstrates the subjective nature of morality.
I recently had a similar conversation with a Muslim who believed that morality comes from god and also thought everyone would go around killing and raping, if it was not for god.Surprisingly he had no clue about the penalty for apostasy in Islam.He was quite clearly disgusted by the idea and refused to accept that it an 'islamic' thing to do, but as soon as I mentioned that prophet Muhammad, apparently the perfect moral figure that everyone must strive to follow, has himself commanded it, he started questioning the authenticity of the references.
If you have the fruit of the spirit stated in The new testament of the bible in galatians chapter five, you would have significantly less trouble in the world, Also Jesus teaching on the mount his beatitudes.This would fix a lot of the subjective that people are espousing.What I`m talking about is basic Christianity not the type of which the Nazis were practicing.
The fruit of the spirit isn't spiritual at all. More like a self help strategy that actually works quite well without your religion.
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