A new tactic

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Pitar's picture
@ keith Raye.

@ Keith Raye.

I think your stance early in the thread is symbolic of the essence of atheism. To be an atheist is simply to declare yourself who you are to you and to no one else. It need not be disclosed, discussed or built upon, supported, expanded, vaulted or shouted from the highest peak. It's just a quiet, anti-climactic dismissal of all things theistic. Once declared, the matter is closed for further discussion because it's senseless to reinforce something you've purposely reduced to nothing.

Theism, on the other hand, is a meme of doubt shrouded in hope. Theists need constant reinforcement and that is the purpose of religions. Ridicule of the theistic is a harsh discipline on both sides. It's a mutual hurt because it demands hurtful thinking as a base to strike, as well as defend from. I'd rather pursue knowledge of the topic of mankind's historicity, to contrast it's unbiased record with the context of the bible's claims, and draw the objective conclusions that path offers. Theists who are strident in defense of their needs have little knowledge of the topic and strike their defenses predominantly from the pages they've cherry-picked from the bible. They quote it as a form of defense. This seriously undermines their credibility because the bible is not a credible source. But, it's all they have and they warm to it as they would an old comfortable pair of shoes. Sobriety is not their lot, relative to man's true historicity, and once you have a fair working knowledge of the latter the former becomes more and more evident and progressively saddening as you age.

Theists will visit this site and others like it with agendas to attempt to prove themselves. Atheists shouldn't care because they've declared the topic unfit for further thought. Moreover, atheism needn't be discussed among atheists because it's pretty obvious there's nothing lacking determination. Still, discuss it we do and in that vein we find atheists of various stripes and colors not unlike watching a crowded city street at the noon hour. They should all be of equal mind regarding a godless declaration but instead we find some who aren't really atheists and play it in pretense while others are hardliners with a certain militancy straining to get out. In this sense it seems to have taken on occult proportions and plays out not unlike the meme of religion. Why not? When christianity killed the pagan it employed pagan-like symbology, conventions, rites, rituals and the always luring pageantry because all those were familiar to the ignorant masses. To the ignorant, the known is much more attractive than the unknown and the architects of christianity knew this. With atheism, the shunning of all that can be quite burdensome. I've even encountered claimed atheists here challenging my position that there is no such thing as immortality, or more accurately, eternity. Go figure that one out.

Policing atheism for the stoic preservation of all things godless in nature is not my idea of a recreational pastime. People, even some claimed atheists, are not truly ready to embrace it for what it is. It's too demanding on the imagination for most so they continue to shelter themselves from it in some manner that leaves them feeling safe. I suggest letting them.

AJ777's picture
Isn’t it a bit self defeating

Isn’t it a bit self defeating to state that atheism needn’t be discussed while participating in a discussion forum on an atheist website? Atheism is the opposite of demanding on the imagination, it’s as you might say simply a lack of the ability to imagine something outside of yourself. When exactly did Christianity kill paganism? It would be funny to make a meme of your repeated use of the word meme.

Keith Raye's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

Hello, darling. Love that sexy beard. And what's that gorgeous aftershave you're wearing? Is it P'murt by President? You know, the one that makes you smell like a backward arsehole?

Keith Raye's picture
@Pitar

@Pitar

Thank you for a very thought-provoking post. The problem with web sites like AR is that you never really know who you're talking to or what their true motives are, do you?. But, having said that, there's a good deal of honest, straightforward truth in your post.

Michael Gill's picture
Pitar, I enjoyed your post

Pitar, I enjoyed your post and thought that I could have described my father as being not ready to embrace atheism for what it is. However, I'd be wrong. I think you'd like my father.

He describes himself as "racially" a Catholic. He's well aware of the irony and knows full well that Catholics are not a race – any more than Jews are ... but that's separate topic. What he's illustrating is his feelings that he has no choice but to be a Catholic.

He is very old now, and we've enjoyed our long hours of discussions through the night for many many decades. When he finally said to me one night, probably 20 years ago, that, on balance of probability, there was no such thing as God, I rejoiced. However, my immediate response merely showed my ignorance, "So why do you still go to church then?". He knew why and quick as a flash replied, "Habit".

It's such a small word, but he was illustrating how profoundly important it is and how profoundly relevant it is to reality.

My father is a very well read man. He is not one of the "ignorant masses". He knows that Christianity didn't kill the pagan, it subsumed it. He knows that theism is longing shrouded in hope. He respects science as the real truth seeker. He respects the historian above the theologian. He's read the bible (unlike most Catholics) and he won't read it again. His loves are family and music. He knows there is no answer in theism. He seeks no answer. He's not a theist... And yet he goes to Church on Sundays. Why? Out of habit.

Is that habit important to him? Not especially.

Is he an Atheist?

Michael Gill's picture
(... and don't come back and

(... and don't come back and say he's an agnostic. He's not. An agnostic is someone who sits of the fence. He very much does not sit on the fence.)

AJ777's picture
Keith I think you should use

Keith I think you should use terms other than right or wrong. Those don’t make sense in the atheist worldview. You could use more or less effective.

Keith Raye's picture
@AJ777

@AJ777

And I think you should fuck off out of this conversation, darling, but it's not a perfect world, is it?

mykcob4's picture
@AJ777 What the FUCK do you

@AJ777 What the FUCK do you know about the "atheists worldview"?! The question is rhetorical it requires no answer!
1) The is no such thing as an "atheists worldview".
2) You wouldn't have a clue what it was if there was one!
You are an unabashed moron.

AJ777's picture
Are you now claiming you don

Are you now claiming you don’t believe in atheists? I’m confused.

mykcob4's picture
Yes you ARE confused AJ777.

Yes you ARE confused AJ777. You are very confused.

AJ777's picture
Enlighten me!

Enlighten me!

algebe's picture
@AJ777: "I think you should

@AJ777: "I think you should use terms other than right or wrong. Those don’t make sense in the atheist worldview."

I think you're guilty of the sins of pride and judgment. You should confess and seek forgiveness from whichever imaginary friend you've entrusted your conscience to.

If your notions of "right" and "wrong" depend on the existence of a god, you're in deep trouble.

AJ777's picture
Ok, good talk Keith.

Ok, good talk Keith.

Flamenca's picture
It takes all sorts of people,

It takes all sorts of people, including @AJ, but also people like @JohnB. and @JontheCat. who are very different from him, to make a world of believers. Generalizations, whoever is the claimer, are not correct. And as members of a historically suppresed minority (and some of several others at the same time) who still faces ignorant prejudices we all should have learnt that lesson by now.

This forum tries to fulfil several different longings, and I guess you're not the only one, @Keith, with that concern, since they came up with two different spaces, and the Atheist Hub, where atheists met only atheists (and some troll from time to time), is precisely the place you're describing, Keith.

It's important to encourage people to defy any indoctrinated idea in life (not only religion, any phobia), but what should matter the most is that posts are not only read by the counter-partners, and if someone acts silly luckily it would be appreciated by other viewers.

The "Debate forum" brings us a good opportunity to show we're not as usually depicted, immoral wicked satan worshippers, but we have (like the vast majority of atheists they could come across in their lives also has) very good reasons to no longer -or never have- believe in a god.

(fixed)

Flamenca's picture
And thanks for the video link

And thanks for the video link, @Cyber, very enlightining.

CyberLN's picture
Y V W, Angie

Y V W, Angie

Keith Raye's picture
@Angiebot

@Angiebot

Your input, as usual, makes a great deal of sense.

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