A proof for god's existence, ***TOO LONG***

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Peripatetic's picture
A proof for god's existence, ***TOO LONG***

Before getting to the argument, Some important definitions must be presented:

A necessary: a thing that the supposition of whose nonexistence entails an impossibility.
An Impossible: a thing that the supposition of whose existence entails an impossibility.
Contingency/possibility: the negation of necessity i.e. a thing that the supposition of whose existence or non-existence does not entail an impossibility.

A necessary being: a thing that its nature necessitate/guarantees its existence. it exists through itself, not through another. Existence is essential to it. its essence is not susceptible to nothingness, therefore it has always been existent, so it had never been brought to existence. it is neither caused by something nor is dependent on/lacking/needing something. and it cannot be complex i.e., composite of parts. its essence can not change.

An Impossible being: its nature necessitates its non-existence i.e its nature precludes its existence. the supposition of whose existence would entail an impossibility, its non existence is necessary, can not exist. it's not a thing it's pure nothingness.

A contingent being: its nature neither necessitate its existence nor its nonexistence. i.e it's not necessary being nor an impossible. it's possible to exist or not exist, its essence are susceptible to be caused/changed/affected. it does not exist through itself but through another.

and the jew philosopher, Ibn Kammuna recapitulates all these points by saying "Necessity, possibility and impossibility are self-evident concepts. everyone knows that a man must be an animal, might be a writer and is impossible to be a stone."

Substance: What does not exist in another and not said of another.
Accidents: What exists in and is said of another.

Causing by nature/necessity: to causing by obligation. For instance, the fire burns by nature/necessity, meaning that the fire does not choose to burn or not, it's intrinsic/substantial to the fire to burn. so what is causing by nature is causing by necessity. and the effect would

NOTE: i'm gonna use the word CREATED as something that has a beginning of its existence, that specific meaning. not more, not less.
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A) the existence of a necessary cause

1- Whatever is contingent must have a cause
2- the universe is contingent
3- therefore the universe must have a cause
4- an actual infinite regress cannot exist
5- therefore the cause must be necessary

Premise 1 is self-evident, it doesn't need to be proven. it's known as soon as the definition of the term is known.
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Premise 2, states that the universe is contingent, and we can prove it in many ways:

the first is conceptual; it's not impossible nor does it entail an impossibility to say that the universe could not have existed or it can cease to exist i.e., existence is not necessary with respect to its essence in the same sense that oddness is intrinsic/necessary with respect to the essence of number 3. Since you can suppose anything without entailing a contradiction then that thing is possible in itself.

Second, The universe is composite of its parts, it subsists through its parts. so it's causally dependent on them and therefore contingent.

Third, the parts of the universe are susceptible to corruption and generation, coming to be and ceasing to be, they are being caused, and they have a beginning of their existence, so they're contingent. since the parts of the universe are contingent, the universe must be contingent. Otherwise, the universe would have to be existent although its parts hadn't been existent. and that's like saying that the clock as a whole is necessary but its parts are contingent Despite the fact that the clock isn't anything other than its parts. so if its parts are contingent the clock must be contingent. if its parts are causally dependent the clock must be causally dependent. if its parts are CREATED then the clock is CREATED.

Fourth, The universe is composite of substances and accidents [e.g., aggregation, segregation, heat ... etc]. Accidents need substances to exist. so they're Possible in themselves. Since they're possible then they would need a cause.Now, they would be caused either by: a)the substances OR b)something else. if it's the former, then these substances are causing by either: a.1)their choice OR a.2)their nature, If it's the latter then the aggregated particles cannot be segregated neither can the segregated particles be aggregated, and that is known to be false. and it's absurd to say that they can choose. so accidents must be caused by something else. Now this something else is causing either: b.1)by necessity OR b.2)by choice. it cannot be the former for the same reason of (a.2), so it must be causing by choice, then the accidents would be CREATED i.e., have a bgeinning (because choosing to do something precedes that something). but since the substances do not exist separated from accidents, and accidents have a beginning, then the substances must also have a beginning. thus the universe is contingent.

Fifth, if the universe was eternal then, the bodies would have been either in motion or in rest eternally.
If bodies were in rest eternally then being in rest can't be ceased, but it's indeed ceasing so they can't be in rest eternally.

To Prove that we say:

If bodies were in rest eternally then the rest is either: a)substantial to the bodies' essence i.e., necessary OR b)possible. if it's the former then it would have been impossible for them to be in motion because essential properties cannot change, and if it's the latter then it would need a cause, and that cause is either: b.1)causing by its choice OR b.2)by its nature, if it's the latter then it implies that bodies are caused to be at rest by necessity and that affirms that there can't be motion in the universe and this is indeed FALSE. And the former entails that the body being in rest is something CREATED i.e., has a beginning, but we are supposing that it's eternal. and the same can be said for Motion. Hence, bodies can not be in rest nor in motion eternally. so the universe cannot be eternal let alone necessary. therefore it's contingent.

Sixth, The essence of the motion is composite of a state that had come to an end and another that has begun, so the true essence of motion entails the precedence by another, it Only gets to be understood through the transition between these two states. but the true essence of eternity entails not being preceding by another. For example:
............ ------A-----B-----C
For an Object to move towards C it would have to go through infinite states that must come to an end in order for the object to reach its goal. but what is infinite does not come to an end, that's a contradiction. so the transition is dependent on an impossible condition, and what depends on an impossible condition is itself impossible. so if there wasn't a starting point or an initial state at which the transition/motion can begin to occur then the motion would be impossible. Hence, the motion can't be eternal, therefore the universe can't be eternal. and whatever has a beginning is indeed contingent.

Seventh, For every one orbit which Jupiter completes Earth completes 12 times as many. but for A and B to exist eternally means that the number of their orbits must be infinite for each one of them. However, since it takes B 12 orbits in order for A to complete one orbit then the number of their orbits can't be identical. so they cannot exist eternally, for whatever is less than another by a finite magnitude is finite. and the same goes for all objects, their motion can't be eternal. and whatever has a beginning is contingent.
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Premise 4, most of the previous arguments refute the infinite regress and the eternal universe, so i'm gonna add a few more arguments.

First, If there were an actual infinite regress of causes then there would not have been an effect at all, If the existence of Z is caused by Y then Z cannot exist unless Y existed first. But for Y to exist the infinite number of prior causes must come to an end, Which is X. But the finitude of an infinite causes is contradictory.

Second, the infinite regress of contingent things does not actually solve the problem of the existence of contingent things at all, it just infinitizes the problem, that's a homunculus Fallacy. that would just be like if someone asks how Human beings exist while they could not have been existed and another answered that because other human beings caused them to. well, those other human beings fall under the subject of the question. infinitizing them would not solve the problem.

Third, it's not just that. actually, an Infinite regress of contingent things each one of them are the effect of the prior would just mean that there is no any contingent things in the aggregate. it would just be an infinite number of annihilated things. For example:
IF Z is caused by Y which is caused by X. then Z&Y cannot exist unless X existed first. but then the same goes for X and each object prior to it ad infinitum. so an infinite number of contingent things cannot exist unless an infinite number of contingent things existed first, but then the same goes for these infinite things and so on, ad infinitum. it's actually an infinite regress of searching for something that is already existent. but since nothing can be found to be existent. then there cannot be an infinite number of contingent things. there must be a starting point that is already existed, without depending on a prior existent thing, from which the existence began to emanate.

I'm gonna stop here with a quote by David Hume: "An infinite number of real parts of time, passing in succession, and exhausted one after another, appears so evident a contradiction, that no man, one should think, whose judgement is not corrupted, instead of being improved, by the sciences, would ever be able to admit of it."

NOTE: the argument was meant to be a proof for a god i.e., a necessary being that is one and has some attributes but then the post would have been too too long so I'm gonna refer to Another thread starting from the point number 8. and this comment and i may elaborate on them in the comment section.

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Randomhero1982's picture
Could you point us in the

Could you point us in the direction of something that is known to be 'necessary' so we can compare and contrast?

algebe's picture
By your definition, "a

By your definition, "a necessary being cannot be complex i.e., composite of parts. its essence can not change."

If a necessary being created the universe, that would represent a change in the essence of that necessary being, from non-creative to creative. Also, something created by that necessary being would be part of that necessary being, since there is no other source for that creation. Therefore that necessary being is now a composite of parts, itself plus the universe.

What is the basis for your claims that the universe is a composite of parts, and that those parts come into being and cease to be? Why can't things be in motion eternally?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Just a quick glance:

Just a quick glance:
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Peripatetic - Premise 4

What happened to premise 3?
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Peripatetic - The essence of the motion is composite of a state that had come to an end and another that has begun

Hidden premise.
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Peripatetic - The universe is composite of its parts, it subsists through its parts

Hidden premise.
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Peripatetic - so [the universe is] causally dependent on [its parts] and therefore contingent.

Hidden premise.
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Peripatetic - the parts of the universe are susceptible to corruption and generation, coming to be and ceasing to be, they are being caused, and they have a beginning of their existence, so they're contingent.

Begging the question.
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Peripatetic - since the parts of the universe are contingent, the universe must be contingent.

Hidden premise.
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Peripatetic - if its parts are CREATED then the clock is CREATED.

Hidden premise.
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Peripatetic - Accidents need substances to exist.

Hidden premise.
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Peripatetic - because essential properties cannot change

Hidden premise.
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edited to add: But honestly, probably the best attempt at a proof by a theist I've read on this site.

RedleT's picture
Most of those "hidden

Most of those "hidden premises" are pretty obvious. Do you actually disagree with them?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Most of them are such word

Most of them are such word salad I can't agree or disagree with them; but I am very suspicious of them.

Consider the statement:

Peripatetic - the parts of the universe are susceptible to corruption and generation

What the fuck does that even mean?

Peripatetic's picture
so they're word salad just

so they're word salad just because you don't understand them? haven't you even thought of using google to know what they mean?

generation and corruption mean coming to be and ceasing to be.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Peripatetic - generation and

Peripatetic - ...corruption mean[s]...ceasing to be.

Yeah, see that is not what corruption means (by any stretch). So it is word salad until you supplied that definition. And why do you insist on using custom definitions?

Oh and thanks for accusing me of not understanding your custom, UNLISTED, definition. Jerk.

Peripatetic's picture
those are philosophical terms

those are philosophical terms, it does not have to have the same meaning as Your every-day use for them. there is even a book for Aristotle with the same name "On generation and corruption" so i didn't come up with these terms.

Peripatetic's picture
"What happened to premise 3?"

"What happened to premise 3?"

it's so sad that you cannot even distinguish a premise from a conclusion.
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what exactly is your problem with these quotes?

Nyarlathotep's picture
Peripatetic - it's so sad

Peripatetic - it's so sad that you cannot even distinguish a premise from a conclusion.

That is just the problem. You said premise 4; that seems to imply there is a premise 3, but I couldn't find one (I found something labelled 3 but it didn't look like a premise). But thanks for implying that I'm stupid.

xenoview's picture
You haven't given any

You haven't given any evidence for the existence of a necessary being/god. All you do is claim that there most be a necessary being/god. Humans worship multiple gods, so which god are you trying to prove? Could there be more than one necessary being/god?

Flamenca's picture
It's refreshing to read a

It's refreshing to read a theist really trying...

I'm not a physicist therefore not qualified to disprove most of your claims efficiently... But I wonder the same.

If the premise was politeism instead of monoteism... Would it change anything in the OP?

Freeslave's picture
Irrelevant. The question is:

?

Freeslave's picture
@xenoview: A couple of

@xenoview: A couple of fallacies in your observation: First, the fact that there must be a necessary being/god is the very evidence of the existence of such. Second, the question is: Does the universe necessitate the existence of a god or gods? Which one or how many is fleeing the topic

xenoview's picture
Freeslave

Freeslave
There is no evidence that a necessary being/god is needed for the existence of the universe. What evidence to you have that a necessary being/god is real? All you do is make claims one is needed. By asking if there is more than one necessary being is not fleeing the OP. What proof do you have that there is only one necessary being/god?

Randomhero1982's picture
Are there not also fallacies

Are there not also fallacies in the OP? I'm not deeply schooled in logic, but I am trying to learn and happy to be advised.

Premise 1 makes an assertion that isn't exhaustive of all options known currently, which is a false dichotomy I believe.

Premise 2 has not been proven and again there are many theories in physics in regards to the origins of the universe including theories by the likes of Lawrence Krauss... doesn't mean any particular side true or factual, but to dismiss all options apart from your own is intellectual dishonest.

And the remaining premises also side step or are ignorant of scientific facts and studies that conclude with opposing reasoning to the OP.

And still no facts have been proven.

I understand I may get the terminology possibly wrong but the points are valid in that no facts are proven and there competing theories on all premises even just within the scientific world, to dismiss them is ridiculous.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Randomhero1982 - Premise 1

Randomhero1982 - Premise 1 makes an assertion...Premise 2 has not been proven

I agree with you; but I think the point is that we don't prove premises. The validity of a proof is based on the conclusions following from the premises, with us assuming each premise is true (no matter how ridiculous it is). I submit this is why Peripatetic appears to be addicted to adding premise after premise; as he has learned (either consciously or unconsciously) that the best place to hide the weaknesses in your proof is in the premises. For example:

P1. All dogs are animals.
P2. All dogs have fur.
P3. All animals with fur own their own Starbucks.
C1. Therefore, Joe's dog owns his own Starbucks.

That is a valid proof that Joe's dog owns a Starbucks. Since the proof is valid, then the truth of the conclusion depends entirely on the premises being true. In this case premise 3 is a bit suspicious :)

But this is why it is important to identify each premise; since the truth of the conclusion entirely depends on every premise being true. That is why a good proofs have a small set of uncontroversial premises; and a bad ones are stuffed full of suspicious ones. I submit that the first post is an example of the latter.

Randomhero1982's picture
Thank you so much for the

Thank you so much for the advice there, I'm very keen to learn and improve! However I am struggling with having to accept premises which to be frank.. Are bollocks!

I'll try to improve upon this, despite how tough it will be!

It's just I find it like trying to reason with flat earthers...

Premise 1 - there is no such thing as gravity

"Nope we're done, your retarded" ;)

Peripatetic's picture
didn't i give an account for

didn't i give an account for each premise? Premise 1 and 2 are not proven?
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"P1. All dogs are animals.
P2. All dogs have fur.
P3. All animals with fur own their own Starbucks.
C1. Therefore, Joe's dog owns his own Starbucks."

that's has nothing to do with my argument, even if you don't agree with premises, but that doesn't make you say that i didn't give an account for them.

Nyarlathotep's picture
Peripatetic - that's has

Peripatetic - that's has nothing to do with my argument

Do you think that might be because I said was not a reply to your post; it was a reply to someone else?

Peripatetic's picture
it's a comment about the

it's a comment about the problems with my argument, so it doesn't really matter which comment you're replying to

Peripatetic's picture
"Premise 1 makes an assertion

"Premise 1 makes an assertion that isn't exhaustive of all options known currently, which is a false dichotomy I believe."

I agree, it's a false dichotomy. because there isn't even a dichotomy in the premise. it can be analyzed to a hypothetical proposition 'If P then Q". What might those all options be? it's either that they have a cause or not.
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"Premise 2 has not been proven"

What about the 7 reasons i mentioned? it's ok that you don't agree with them. but don't just ignore them and act like i haven't proved it. if you don't agree with them, then how about refuting them?
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"And the remaining premises also side step or are ignorant of scientific facts and studies that conclude with opposing reasoning to the OP.

And still no facts have been proven."

i honestly don't know how to response to that, it's so frustrating.

Randomhero1982's picture
Ok, in that case I apologise.

Ok, in that case I apologise... As I said it's a learning process and I will improve. My fields are in actual sciences as oppose to theological or philosophical... I do stand by that the initial premise does not exhaust all options however.

As for your points on premise 2 I too am equally frustrated as you are on my last comment... because as always the evidence is not supported by hard facts, or agreed upon by specialists in those fields.

If they were and you had proved them, you would have been peer reviewed and have a nobel prize.

It's equally frustrating for us because I would love to be given some evidence in which I can go and review some citations, some peer reviewed papers etc.. and form an opinion... but all we get is assertions from ones opinion that isn't agreed with by the vast majority of experts in relative fields let alone by what science has proved, theorized or hypothesized.

Peripatetic's picture
what is really frustrating is

what is really frustrating is that:

- Why the evidence should be empirical, empirical evidence is not the only source of knowledge
-- I never said that empirical evidence is the only way to gain knowledge.
- here is an argument for god.
-- Your argument is not agreed upon by scientists you have not been peer reviewed.
- empirical evidence is not the only way for knowledge
-- Of course, i never maintained that
- here an argument for god
and it goes like this ad infinitum, i really don't understand you

I have given an account for the premise in many ways so that i can show you it would be a contradiction to say that there is an infinite regress of contingent things. the law of non contradiction does not need scientists to agree upon. if you think that i have made fallacies, you're more than welcome to pinpoint them and we can discuss them. but just saying that it is not scientific, as a refutation for the argument, is pure bullshit.

Flamenca's picture
I know that the debate has

I know that the debate has gone beyond... But what if you start by arguing why the first premise, is true?

1- Whatever is contingent must have a cause.

I may seem dumb, but, please, try to follow my argument:

1. Whatever is contingent must have a cause. (I cannot see why, but ok, let's move on)
2. Some source of energy is contigent for a car to work.
3. Therefore, gas has a cause.

Probably I'm too ignorant, and I hope you guys could explain if I'm wrong, but it seems to me like a fallacy.

Peripatetic's picture
i wrote the definition of

i wrote the definition of contingency before getting to the argument.

Contingency in general is the Possibility, which is the negation of necessity. so when we say 'a contingent existent'. we mean that it is a thing that, in itself, may exist or may not exist. its essence does not necessitate its existence nor precludes it. its essence is neutral with respect to existence. so we cannot give it the account for its own existence. The existence of me, you, planets, baseballs, stars .. etc, these objects are in themselves possible to exist, so they would need a cause to preponderate their existence over non-existence, and we cannot go back in an infinite regress of contingent things preponderating one another to exist for the reasons i mentioned in the post.

Randomhero1982's picture
And it's equally frustrating

And it's equally frustrating for us because your arguments however eloquently put, contain assertions regarding the cosmos and the laws of physics despite if it's intentional or not... if you make a claim that essentially goes against what is known by experts in that field you need to provide some quality evidence for your case! and obviously we will ask for empirical evidence because that is the best tool in that particular field, that has led to all the leading theories and the knowledge we currently have... and I'm sorry you've not done that.

Trying to prove there is god(s) in a way that delves into the world of physics is of course going to evoke the rebuttal using the tools of that particular field... In this case, empirical evidence!

Peripatetic's picture
What assertions did i make

What assertions did i make about cosmos and law of physics you found problematic? why don't you point out what specifically that you found problematic instead of that general talking? is it so hard for you to address an argument?

LostLocke's picture
When you try to use

When you try to use philosophy and theology to describe PHYSICS, you're going to get your ass handed to you by actual physicists.

Flamenca's picture
About the physolophical

About the physolophical reasoning, I strongly recommend you to read/listen to the debate between Bertrand Russell and father F.C. Copleston S.J. in 1948. You can read it 'Why I'm not a Christian' or listen to it inhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXPdpEJk78E, especilly the first part of the debate, the metaphysical part about cosmology.

About the 'contingency' premise... Why is God contingent? In Rusell's words: "If there must be a necessarily existent being, why can't it be the Universe as a whole?"

P.S. I took out the previous link of the post, because I've compared the text to the one in the book and some Russell's arguments were purposely cut. And I changed the youtube link to the original recording.

PS.II Here it is the complete text: http://reasonbroadcast.blogspot.com.es/2012/03/debate-on-existence-of-go...

PS.III And about the causal argument I'd like to add another quote: "The scientist is finding out quite a lot of things that are happening in the world, which are, at first, beginnings of causal chains -- first causes which haven't in themselves got causes. He does not assume that everything has a cause."

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