In general, do you atheists believe in free will?
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Yes, I have no choice but to have it.
@Jordan: do you atheists believe in free will?
No. But I do believe in reasonably priced will.
My will cost me $250 on line....
@old man shouts...
Well I guess you get what you pay for
@Jordan: What are you calling free will? For all intent and purpose, I make decisions. Neurologists, like Sam Harris are questioning it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g
Jordan - why must you insist on your dogmatic black and white bullshit. Your thinking process is so damn limited. Free Will exists to the degree that it exists. There are also points and evidence for a model of determination. Why not stop pretending you know shit when you do not and begin looking at the evidence?
@cognostic
How is my question black and white? If I ask do you belive hotdogs exist does that somehow imply that I belive that if hotdogs exist hamburgers cannot? You know nothing about the limitations of my thinking and last I heard Atheists are the ones who limit their imagination to their egocentric view of the world.
P,s please explain how me asking a question is “pretending I know shit”
Relax, take a deep breathe and think before responding.
@Jordan
So all atheist have an egocentric view of the world? Is atheism, which is not a worldview per se, inherently egocentric? Are theists, who usually think the world revolve around them and what they do, more egocentric?
@talyyn
No because theoretically theists would have a reason to think the world revolves around people. Atheists on the other hand are bound by their innate perception of the world, in other words their view of what’s possibly is often limited by their anthropoic standpoint.
Also I know many atheists that find the murder of humans much more disturbing thAn the killing of an Ant when according to a strict belief in nature the human is no more important than the ant.
@Jordan
The Bible? The Koran? The Torah? Books written by profoundly narcissistic men?
And?
@talyyn
Well because if theism is true then it would provide an explaination for humans being “special” as it is an inherent part of being theistic
In contrast atheists have no basis for believing humans are any more Important than bacteria yet they place emphasis on the value of mankind all the time.
But again, more importantly, atheists are bound to their egocentric worldview by perceived limitations of possibility as known as an anthropic standpoint
@Jordan
Practically all forms of theistic religions make humans special but what about the non-theistic ones such as Buddhism? Because theism makes humans special, we can say that theists are much more egocentric and narcissistic than non believers.
Why atheist must be nihilistic? There is absolutely no reasons for this. Of course we care more for humans than for other species, I fail to see your point here and why this line of argument seems powerful in your mind. We are biologically programmed to care for each other. We do not care much for bacteria because there is no reason to equate them to actual people.
You are setting up false dilemmas here.
Again, we do not use an anthropological but only actual scientific knowledge and the null hypothesis. It is not being narrow-minded as so much theists like to say about us.
@ Jordan
You think you're special, and the whole universe was created with you in mind, but think atheists don't think humans are anymore important than bacteria, yet call atheists egocentric?
I'm sure if you try hard you can see what an obvious contradiction that is. Well perhaps I'm not sure, but I want to give you the benefit of the doubt.
@Sheldon
Haha I almost spilled my drink. Your reply was to the point, short and sweet. Well sweet to me. It might be bitter to others...lol
@Jordan
I see you are still assigning labels and definition to "atheists" even though we gone over with you what atheist means.
Anyways... I argue that science, reality, nature etc does a far better job at explaining why humans are "special" over ants then any book or religion. Religion as per the usual modus operandi of religion just makes a bunch of unproven assertions. Where science, says hey, look at the complexity of the human brain compared to an ants. Look at the trillions upon trillions of possible connections the human brain can make.
Look at the extraordinary capability for humans to "sweat" that allows humans to be some of the most effective hunters on the planet even before all the other capabilities of the brain is considered. Stuff we can actually test. Heck even the length and difficulty of the human reproduction cycle, say compared to an ant, does well in highlighting why every human life has an elevated importance over that of a single antm if simply in time and resources involved. If we reproduced with the frequency and speed that ants do, then the base worker ant would have little value as in individual, where the queens would be of high value.
A world view based on evidence and reality is going to exceed a worldview based on story and unproven opinion is every meaningful way except one. That one being: that a made up feel good fantasy lie can be a lot more comforting than reality at times, even I can understand the lure of this lie, but know there is a high price to be paid, (by all of us really,) on accepting this lie in large numbers.
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I can not flap my arms and fly. Free will has it's limits.
@chimp3
Free will has nothing to do with actions you cannot do, but with the actions you can.
Jordan: "Free will has nothing to do with actions you cannot do, but with the actions you can."
Then we agree.
Hell yes I believe in free Will! He didn't do anything wrong. He was FRAMED!... *chanting while waving protest sign*... FREE WILL! FREE WILL! FREE WILL! FREE WILL!...
@tin-man
You either don’t understand or are intentionally contradicting yourself. Having free will would mean he was NOT framed.
@Jordan Re: "You either don’t understand or are intentionally contradicting yourself."
Ahhh... So that begs the question: If I INTENTIONALLY contradict myself, am I doing it as a result of having free will, or was my intentional action predetermined long before I ever intentionally made the decision to do so? Because if I did it UNintentionally I could totally see it as being predetermined and I was manipulated to act against my free will in accordance to some grand predetermined plan. Although, at the same time, what if my intentional actions are totally unintentional? Or, better yet, what if my unintentional acts are actually completely intentional (unbeknownst to my own intentions, of course). Oh, shit! I just thought of something! What if I didn't actually intend to make this post, but it was actually intended to happen? Therefore, it would make this post an unintentional intention. Or, even worse, what if I actually DID intend to write this post using free will, but this post was actually UNintended?.... *wringing hand nervously*... Oh, no... Damn-damn-damn-damn-damn... I could be changing the entire course of history at this very moment!... *pacing back and forth in panic*.... Oh, dear! This is waaay too much responsibility for me! What do I do? Post this or not? I started off intending to post this, but now I don't know! It is possible I am doing this unintentionally for intentions of which I am unaware! OH, THE HUMANITYYYYYY....!
...*enters answer to math question*... *tentatively presses save button*... (Intentionally, or unintentionally, we may never know...)
Depends on what is meant by free will. I don't believe there exists a "ghost in the shell" that determines without causal neurological processes what I do. I am my brain and the rest of my body, and my body is made of matter that is subject to the laws of nature. If someone had a theory of everything, that someone could predict all that happens in the universe, including what I will do next. Such amount of information is currently unimaginable to us. So no, I don't believe in free will. But for all intents and purposes free will is not necessary in order to hold people accountable for the actions they do.
@peurii
So we can hold them accountable but it’s not their fault?
@Jordan Re: "So we can hold them accountable but it’s not their fault?"
Well, maybe that depends, really. I mean, did they intend to do it unintentionally? Or did they unintentionally intend to do it? Because sometimes unintended consequences can be caused by intended actions. While, at the same time, intended results can stem from unintended actions. Of course, things get REALLY bad when unintended actions bring about unintended results. Unless, though, those unintended results were the intentions of some other party all along. However, on the bright side, intended results from intended actions are always a plus. That is, unless you happen to be someone who always intends to do things unintentionally. In which case, you are probably fucked.
@ Tin Man
Once again you bring order from chaos, rules for the unruly and make sense from nonsense. If only theists could do the same.
Do dogs have free will? I'm guessing you would say no? If a dog bites the neighbour's child, would you not want the dog removed from the neighbourhood, so that it doesn't bite again, or should we just let the dog roam around biting people at will, because it just can't help itself?
Why would you need free will to assign fault? Not having free will is not the same as temporary insanity, where we can point to a state of mind that was faulty in a moment and say, that one was not acting with his full capacity at a murderous moment. It's not as if people don't have possible actions, even though a theory of everything could in principle predict what they do next. You can't claim that "I couldn't help myself murdering the poor old lady, you see, my brain made me do it". You are your brain! A murderer contemplated on the action and decided to murder. The causes that led him to murder are so complex that we can't (currently, and perhaps never) determine what it was in the murderer that made him murder, but ultimately the totality of his neural structure (including memory), which is him, caused him to murder. For the sake of the rest of us, it is better to lock him up in the hopes that in the future his new experience, of being imprisoned, which has become a part of his contemplation process, impedes him from murdering. Free will is a convincing illusion, like the self.
I will admit that it might be socially beneficial to believe as if we had free will. It seems to come to us naturally anyway. I'll even admit that it might be socially beneficial to a degree to have a single shared religion in a country. But all that, even if true, doesn't mean that free will exists or that gods exist.
Anyway, how could free will exist in an universe with an all knowing god either? Or is god not all knowing?
@peurii
IF we do not have free will and are a product of pre determined causes outside of our control, then while we can be held accountable as in we can account for what we did, it would not be our fault since it was out of control, and we could not have willed our behavior in any other way. Just like the apple does not will itself to fall from a tree and therefor is not at any fault, neither would humans be responsible for any of their actions
@peurii
This is a common misunderstanding that God cannot be all knowing if we have free will. Just because God is all knowing does not mean he is determining our decisions for us. God is outside of time and therefor he can see all time all the time. He may know what we will do before we do it, but if we were to do otherwise, then he would know otherwise.
For example if you have seen a movie and you know how it ends, does that mean you wrote the script?
@ Jordan
Is your god outside of space as well?
How do you know this?
@Jordan
You really have made me laugh on this occasion... Remember when my first answer to one of your thread was that you aren't bringing anything new?
Well...
This canard have been seen thousands of times.
How do YOU know? Where is it mentioned in the Bible? Why does this retort appear only in modern times?
How can God be outside of the reality, which is what Universe means: space-time and all matter-energy?
edit (correcting a word)
I read a journal a while back, perhaps scientific American or something akin to that... neurologists had claimed and demonstrated that there appeared to be evidence to show that our brains make descions before we enact those choices, given credence to some form of determinism.
But to be fair, I couldnt care and I'll simply follow the preponderance of evidence like any rational person should.
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