hi
i am an Egyptian...a former muslim ....or u could say i just started thinking out of the box - as if i was just born knowing nothing - ....
so now i think..is there a god? well till now i cant find a proof for it so till i do there isn't one.......
now my muslim friends are trying to give me proof....that being the scientific facts Quran mentioned long before they were discovered
since i am 16 and i lack enough knowledge to reply to those i never can...
i am sure someone did that before but i cant really find it.....i want a detailed proof that every such fact isn't a work of a "god" ...like for example if some of those was known before islam or such explanations
so that when a friend tells me something i can reply.. for example that quran said we think with our hearts and now its proven to be true that hearts have neurons and think....or when someone tells me
"And Since you insist there is no God, please explain why (if God and the Bible supposedly are nothing more than superstition) nearly 400 Bible prophecies have already come true. Explain how Israel became a nation again and that it happened in one day EXACTLY as Isaiah prophesied."
i just stand still and cant reply :(..and such things are alot so i just feel defeated ...
sorry for the long post and thanks in advance for any help
(&sorry for my terrible english)
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"hearts have neurons and think"
I'm a skeptic but i do give the benefit of the doubt when someone makes an extraordinary claim.(try to ignore my bias)
It is one thing to say that the heart has neurons and another completely different thing to say that it thinks.
I would be ready to grant that the heart could possibly contribute to our ability to think, but to claim that the heart thinks I would require some pretty good evidence.
Until then you better support your claims really well unless you want to be considered a troll or something.
"400 Bible prophecies have already come true"
Like the "heart thinks" prophecy?
(btw it is not original to the Quran, they just copied it)
I will make you a prophecy right now which is more accurate then any of those in the bible.
Wait for it:
"You will be breathing while reading this, no matter on which side of the planet you are on and when you are reading it"
Unbelievable isn't it, I should get in the prophesying business.
Basically all those 400 prophecies are all like my prophecy, but even more generic then mine.
"i just stand still and cant reply :(..and such things are alot so i just feel defeated ..."
I might be wrong here, but my guts tell me that you wanted to put forward some baseless claims without showing your own flag.
If i am wrong i apologize, but usually trolls make such unproductive posts.
If you do not know something, look it up, and if you do not find an answer then make a post.
You were so generic in the post(no effort), that you practically showed me that you are not that interested in an answer.
Congratulations on starting to think critically.
But be careful about who you talk to about your doubts. Isn't Egypt a dangerous place to criticize religion? For the sake of safety, it could be better to pretend to believe and try to figure out the answers in peace.
One thing that is often forgotten, especially by believers, is that the answer "I don't know" is perfectly acceptable and many times also the most honest. You could also add "That's an interesting question. I will look into it."
When believers don't know the answer to a question, they often insert "god" and then they have an answer: "God did it", "It's god's will", "It's part of god's plan", and so on...
Perhaps you should state the questions you want answers to, one by one. And the more detailed and specific you are about the question, the better chance you have of getting a detailed and specific reply.
I don't really get what the part about "its proven to be true that hearts have neurons and think" means. Is that something they claim?
After searching a little about 'neurons in the heart' I found this:
"The primary misconception here is to confuse “neuron” with “brain cell” followed by equating brain cells with mind."
"Not all neurons are brain cells ... Neurons are specialized cells of the nervous system that use the electrical potential across the membrane of all cells, which in neurons have evolved a special function, to trigger depolarizations that send an electrical signal down their axons which then sends a signal to another cell."
"Not all neurons are in the brain. There are neurons in the spinal cord and in the peripheral nervous system as well."
"The heart responds to three systems that work together to regulate its function – the autonomic nervous system, the hormonal system (chemicals that are secreted in the blood that affect heart function, like adrenaline), and an intrinsic nervous system. The heart contains its own electrical system that regulates itself in order to keep the heart pumping in a coordinated fashion. This function is then further adjusted by the autonomic and hormonal systems."
"A recent review of the evidence indicates that the heart contains a complex intrinsic nervous system comprised of multiple ganglia (clusters of neurons) that network with each other."
"The heart does not contain brain cells. It contains neurons that comprise its own intrinsic system for regulating cardiac function. Further, neurons alone do not equal mind or consciousness. It takes the specialized organization of neurons in the brain to produce cognitive processes that we experience as the mind."
Source:
http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/brain-cells-in-the-heart/ (2013)
Which in turn references this source:
http://www.bmj.sk/2006/10703-01.pdf (2006)
I had no idea there were clusters of neurons in hearts, interesting stuff!
Since the heart needs to respond to changes quickly it has it's own built in nervous system. This is why it can keep pumping even when cut out, at for example a heart transplant (I have seen this in fish hearts when gutting them). It also takes input from other systems and gives feedback to the brain.
So there are evidently neurons in the heart, but it's part of an autonomous nervous system, not in any way structured as 'brain cells' and not able to think.
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@ jeff
"the "fact" isn't specific enough...so it may be just a word that now u adjust to the fact u have to state it was mentioned back then"
i sometimes use this reply but some other times isn't really convincing
and if i just wanted to debate u so u become a muslim why wouldnt i just say "u are an idiot u dont believe these facts don't u dare say they are not true"
i simply said because i lack knowlage i feel defeated ......not that exery atheist should feel defeated.....
@the pragmatic thnx for a real reply there...yup ik that i will probably get killed soon..i just discussed it with about 15 friends or so...and someday a teacher who is a MB member overheard 2 of them talking about me....so weather i get executed soon or not isnt really a sure thing
and now this is what i am asking for that a real scientific reply...thnx for that i will use it..and next time i will be more specefic about these things so i can get good replies..thnx
again sorry for bad english
Hi Sherif!
I actually signed up to reply to your post.
After something happened, it's easy to make a connection to some prophecy somewhere in a book full of predictions. Religious people are always predicting a lot of things - and when something happenes - a war, a catastrophe, anything - they will say, "oh, the holy book said so all along..."
But it's not true, it just feels true to them, perhaps.
Okay, and the "scientific" things. Remind them, that the religious books were written at a time, when science, religion, myths and philosophy were not clearly defined. There are fables, fairytales, old stories, ancient interpretation of civil law, philosophiocal thoughts all together in one book that tries to explain everything... Basically, people were trying to make sense of the world - and what they found out, or thought right, or heard about, got written down and then ended up in text collections like the bible or q'ran. So, yes - what was known about the world - early "scientific" knowledge, found it's way into religious thinking aswell. One example: Some people say, the q'ran describes embryonic developement, before "it was known to the world".
Of course humans knew what an embryo looked like. There were women miscarrying, there were pregnant animals killed and opened, there were humans forever inquiring into all sorts of things and passing on what they knew or thought at that time. Of course some facts about embryonic developement were known to humans before islam. Before civilized society, even. Humans then would write it all down, and also think about it and try to figure things out - like, "when will it have soul? " - that's how science, religion and philosophy began.
And bit by bit, emerging science understood many things that were formerly explained by myths.
Nobody believes thunder is made by god anymore. There are many mistakes in the early "science" of the holy books and also in philosophy.
We don't think with the heart, and genetic evolution is NOT JUST a theory, it's a fact. Science isn't finished - and that's what religious people get so wrong, we can't explain everything - yet - but that doesn't prove the existence of god.
Religious books are not only about god. They contain a jumble of thoughts on a great matter of things. So, if there is a proven scientific fact in islamic scripture - it doesn't prove islam is right about god. It only proves, that people back then already knew or guessed a bit about their world and were trying to figure stuff out. Like where thinking happened (in the brain or the heart or the liver??? )
Take care of yourself - I don't know if any of this helps you - just read your second post - sounds like here (in germany) during the nazi times - and MB like Gestapo - Crazy world. ( I am sure, btw. Mohammed would not marry a child today, nor would he insist on the science of his times being 100% right. He was interested in things and wanted to make the world better, right? I think, he would be fascinated by modern science.)
I wish you all the best - and never lose your courage, if worse comes to worst, die proud and angry, but you may have luck yet!
@mermaidsilver
Thnx for the reply. I was just about to ask about that embryonic thing BTW one of the things ppl debated me on too...but looks like I am not smart enough to conclude what u did alone :( ..that's why I guess I will greatly benefit from some minds to help me here :)
What u say sounds very reasonable also cuz as far as ik there were alot of Arab scientists back then before islam..so yeah u r most probably right
Although in 99% of the conversation with theists one will probably never make them disbelieve but at least knowing I am on the right side myself is enough for me :)
Some proofs that God exists are just crazy those are easy to reply to ..like for example the earth is perfect for us so god made it -_- ( when obviously we r what we r cuz we evoluted/ adapted to it so we r made for each not vice versa) ...I just struggle when it comes to science :(
Thnx again for helping & will keep coming back here for answers as long as some ppl won't consider me a troll -_-..
Hello again! Atheist republic didn't tell me you replied - I'm happy, you read my post and it makes you feel less alone! I thought about these things for years - and it's sometimes very hard to pick it all apart and understand. Especially as we all grow up with myths and miracles we are told to believe in. Yes, there were important thinkers, philosophers, poets and scientists in the Arab world - and in Persia, independent of Islam. I think it's rarely possible, to make people see reason over belief - and if you are in Egypt, you must be careful, especially at the moment. But there are some serious doubters, and there are some good websites, that helped me to understand about not that miraculous miracles and things. There is also are very good essay by Sigmund Freud, where he expresses some thoughts about the beginnings of religious beliefs, so when I find time, I check if I can find some links and post them, if you like.. Your English is very good btw!!!