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lol ok then
Hahahaha god can make people from dust/clay yet cannot write in small font lol your conclusions are classic. I will use this at my Christmas party.
I will assume this is why he couldn't denounce slavery... don't own peop...... ah fuck it go ahead and own people treat them right buuuuut you can beat the fuck out of them as long as they don't die within a day or two!!!
Serious question: how do we know which laws can be changed and which ones cannot? Should we still stone homosexuals to death? Should we still not eat shellfish? Shall a man still be the head of the household? I'm guessing you're talking about the ten commandments as they are commonly quoted by Christians so no gods before Yahweh, no false idols, no killing, no stealing, no bearing false witness et cetera. How do we know that those are the unchangeable laws versus others? Does Timothy II 3:16 not say all scripture should be followed? How do we know if we should reject that or anything else while keeping other things?
That's an easy question to answer, when true stories are proven false they become metaphors, when our morality changes as a society anything from the Bible that doesn't follow that was written by men, or god had a reason that is beyond our understanding, if a verse works in my favor I will use it, if it doesn't I will say you are taking it out of context. The Bible is the infallible word of god, how dare you question it!
Firstly, I want to ask if there is anything you wish to add in regards to the OP? I don't mind moving in a different direction (well partly) so long as you at least address the subject of the OP at some point.
But briefly, laws typically exist as part of governments. There are two primary governments in Scripture, the one of God and the one of man. Heaven has its laws, such as the Ten Commandments, which are universal. But then there are the laws of Moses. Some of which were given by Moses himself, others were given by God, but intended for Israel, as an independent country and state. You and I do not live in Israel, thus these laws cannot possibly apply to us.
"You and I do not live in Israel, thus these laws cannot possibly apply to us."
All of them? Why did Jesus endorse Mosaic law in the NT if they don't apply? How do you know what laws apply if these are all defunct? Why could a perfect deity not get things right the first time? Why do the Christian churches universally disagree with your claim?
Sheldon is here. Fun's over lol.
This a debate forum, if it's fun you want then this is an odd place for a theist to seek it. And you have yet again resorted to ad hominem to avoid addressing points you won't or can't answer. I'm not surprised though.
Again what Ten Commandments are you speaking of
Are you asking because you don't know, or because you want to argue that they're different?
I am asking you because there are two different versions of the tablets that Moses carried down the mountain... you said " the 10 commandments are universal"
If you are referring to the first version of the tablets slavery is on them, if you are referring to the second then my question is what commandments do you follow?
"A certain ruler asked him, 'Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?'
'Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. 'No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' (Luke 18:18).
Surely, these sound familiar to you, do they not?
John 6IX Breezy,
But those are not the real Ten Commandments! Those are oral laws. They were not written on the stone tablets and called the Ten Commandments.
Just out of curiosity, have you read Deuteronomy?
John 6IX Breezy,
While the rules in Deuteronomy were written on stone tablets they are not called the Ten Commandments. There is also another set of rules written on stone tablets, the Twelve Curses.
Wrong, it does call them the Ten Commandments: "Then the LORD spoke to you from the midst of the fire; you heard the sound of words, but you saw no form-- only a voice. So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone" (Deut 4:13).
Notice carefully the event described: God is speaking to Israel directly, they heard His voice from the midst of the fire, and God Himself spoke to them the Ten Commandments. There is only one time in all of Exodus where God spoke to Israel directly from the midst of the fire: when He spoke the Ten Commandments. The one that talks about not stealing, murdering, lying, etc. Immediately after speaking the Ten Commandments, the people were too scared and said they didn't want to hear God anymore: "When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance and said to Moses, 'Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die'" (Exodus 20:18).
That alone narrows it down pretty specifically. Nothing that comes after Exodus 20:18 can be called the Ten Commandments. But there's more:
"The LORD wrote on these tablets what he had written before, the Ten Commandments he had proclaimed to you on the mountain, out of the fire, on the day of the assembly. And the LORD gave them to me" (Deut 10:4).
Notice that God writes the same thing He spoke out of the fire, a second time. Notice who is doing the writing: God, not Moses. When we go to your favorite chapter in Exodus, we find the same story, "The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke" (Exodus 34:1).
Yet when we look at what you call the "Real Ten Commandments," we find that its not God writing them, but Moses. "Then the Lord said to Moses, 'Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel'" (Exodus 34:27).
"Moses was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And He [God] wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant--the Ten Commandments" (Exodus 34:28).
In summary, God spoke to Israel directly only once. What He spoke, is what He wrote on the two tablets, not Moses. Moses was told to write many other things, including Exodus 34, duh, otherwise we wouldn't be here reading it. In addition Deuteronomy 5 again recounts the story of God speaking Israel directly, and even goes on to repeat the Ten Commandments again. We also saw that the New Testament describes the Commandments as "you shall not steal, you shall not murder, etc."
It all seems plain and simple enough. Where is the confusion here?
Your confusion is that you think god wrote down/ Moses and your ability to only see things from your side! You need to sit down and do a bible study and some research into this, when did "god" write these commandments? Which stones went into the wooden box? How long after did the book known as exodus get written? Would they still have the broken tablets? If "god" wrote down the original ten then why did he repeat himself in the second? Why have Moses wrote down something he himself already wrote down?
You sir are sadly mistaken and your "points" through these op's are asserted with no evidence to back up your claim!
Personally, I do think I did a pretty good job of demonstrating which are the Ten Commandments. Its as clear as day to be honest.
John 6IX Breezy,
The verse Deuteronomy 4:13 refers to a past event. There's only one passage in the Bible that refers to the laws written on the stone tablets as the Ten Commandments and that's in Exodus chapter 34:28.
You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' (Luke 18:18).
Surely, these sound familiar to you, do they not?
>>Yes, and those notions of morality predate Christianity in almost every human society we have examined.
I would hope so. That's kind of the point.
"I would hope so. That's kind of the point."
Your point was that when the Hebrews created the precursor to the breakaway Christian cult they plagiarised earlier human morals and passed them off as divinely inspired? Only that was my point.
“Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?'
'Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. 'No one is good—except God alone.”
I thought the character of Jesus was god.
I will add to this OP....
Exodus laws were given my god to Moses, those laws included slavery. Deuteronomy is Moses talking to his people... what makes you think your passage that you quoted -Deuteronomy 23:15- came from god?
As others pointed out before, the golden rule was around prior to the writing of the Bible, just because a later book quoted what you feel are the Ten Commandments does not make them so.
I will add as much as you think you are making points that defend your world view, you actually are pointing out flaws and contradictions in your holy book.
The only contradictions I see are between your claims and what Scripture says. Anyway, any last words about the OP before I go write my next thread?
Did you address my direct question? Maybe you missed it...
Nope, didn't miss it. I ignored it.
And that is why you are a theist!!
I want to ask if there is anything you wish to add in regards to the OP?
@Breezy. I have one thing to add. The real issue here is not whether the Bible is more benign to slaves or not than other codes. Today no-one takes as real commandments the Laws of Dadusha of Eshnunna, the Laws of Lipit-Ishtar or the Fugitive Slave Act. But still many take Bible as so.
Kinda like when my mom told you to always hold her hand when crossing the street and to always respect my elders. One rule I still follow to this day. The other I don't. But even the one I don't follow had value when I was a child. So while I don't follow that rule, I follow the truth that that rule puts forth.
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