SLAVERY pt. 1
Donating = Loving
Bringing you atheist articles and building active godless communities takes hundreds of hours and resources each month. If you find any joy or stimulation at Atheist Republic, please consider becoming a Supporting Member with a recurring monthly donation of your choosing, between a cup of tea and a good dinner.
Log in or create an account to join the discussions on the Atheist Republic forums.
LostLocke "book written by a "True and Loving God" would just say "Don't own slaves". "
Precisely correct, but this is a rational argument, addressing the facts, and the text without bias and subjective interpretation to defend any a priori beliefs, so don't expect any religious apologist to accept it with an open mind.
I don't see the need for this Breezy. This is just an ongoing fight between you and Burn Your Bible. He challenged you and you declined here you are basically challenging him. Should we all leave and just let you two go at it?
The bible is full of contradictions. Its passages on slavery are also contradictory. I have read some theist explain this as slavery was acceptable at the time. If that is true then the bible has no modern relevance.
So you can fight Burn your Bible all you want but you cannot deny the fallacy of the bible about slavery. You have chosen to cherry pick one passage. You know that that is a common tactic of theists.
I declined to debate him, I never declined to have a conversation. I feel as though I've been fairly consistent with that distinction during my time here. This thread is intended for everyone. If I didn't feel confident about my ability to have this discussion, I would of had it in private, instead of opening it up to an entire forum of people that disagree with me.
I also didn't cherry pick one passage, I focused on one. I intend to focus on the others with each consecutive thread in this series.
I did it this way because defending something is always inherently difficult, even if the accusations are wrong. It's a step by step process. Which requires focus. As it pertains to this thread, step one focused on fugitives. As Chimp pointed out, freedom to leave is key. So a verse that suggests you are free to leave if oppressed, because you won't be returned, is important to my defense.
"I also didn't cherry pick one passage, I focused on one."
selectively choose (the most beneficial or profitable items, opportunities, etc.) from what is available. You're hilarious, but thoroughly dishonest I'm afraid. You can delude yourself this way if you want, but I'm afraid it won't fool anyone with any objectivity or an open mind.
"defending something is always inherently difficult, even if the accusations are wrong. "
Though even more so if what your defending is absurdly wrong, and you're dishonestly cherry picking biblical narratives that suit your purpose, whilst ignoring others that roundly contradict you.
Bottom line the claim a narrative is divinely inspired by an omniscient deity would necessarily require the message itself reflect this by being perfect, and that includes morally perfect. So a passage claiming it's ok to buy, own, and beat slaves is a direct contradiction to such a claim. The fact the bible entirely reflects the flawed human morals from that era and culture is another telling contradiction, and the fact that this message takes the time to prohibit irrelevant things like wearing blended fabrics, and consuming shellfish as immoral, whilst making no mention anywhere that denounces slavery as morally unconscionable is a slam dunk for any open minded person, unless you ignore any narrative that doesn't fit your a priori belief in a deity, and with a closed mind refuse to accept even the possibility that the book might be entirely man made as teh evidence suggests.
"Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.
And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."
I don't think God, Jesus or the bible is pro-slavery. First of all, God rescued the Hebrews after 400 years of slavery in Egypt and gave them a land ful of milk and honey. The second is that we were slaves to the law but Jesus freed us from this by dying on the cross for us.
First of all "god" rescued the Hebrews from slavery then right after gave them laws on what to do with their own slaves... how is this not pro slavery? Please show me the verse that says that owning another human is immoral and you will be put to death!
Also please show verse that supports your second claim
What is this slavery that you are so against. Please define it. As most Christians understand it, slavery with the ancient Hebrews isn't the same as the slavery we know today with chains and shackles. Most of the "slaves" I read about in the Bible or with ancient Jews actually had more of a servant role than a slave role.
You and I keep going back and forth,
DO YOU THINK ITS EVER MORALLY OK TO OWN ANOTHER HUMAN? Do you think it's ok to beat that human because they are your property? Do you think it's ok to slightly beat them if they do something wrong without knowledge that it was wrong? Do you think it's ok to buy another human from the heathens around you and keep them forever? Is it ok to pass down humans as property to your children??
This whole bullshit about how awesome slavery was back then is old!!! And JOC if you actually practiced the critical thinking skills you say you have then you would see how idiotic it is to defend slavery in the Bible!
Calm down, Burn. Tell me. What is slavery. Coz there are definitions of slavery that include things which are practiced to this day, but aren't called slavery or are actually perfectly legal.
Let's make this easy... owning another human in any form!
Is this necessarily a bad thing if the slaves are given the means to live and survive? Like even if they were housed and fed well? Or if a man agrees to be slave for a set period of time to pay off a debt he owes another man and he'll be released afterwards?
Yes allowing humans in any way to own other humans is wrong! What you are doing is justifying the passages in your book with what ifs... I know this is a moral hardship for you but here it as again!!!
IT IS NEVER AND I REPEAT NEVER OK TO OWN ANOTHER FUCKING HUMAN BEING!!!!
I do not care if you want to call it super awesome nice slavery 2.0 it is 100% immoral and the sentence for owning another human should be death!!!
I don't think death is to much to ask for that since your god is willing to kill people that eat shrimp!!!
There's actually a different kind of slavery during Biblical times. It's one where a man sells himself to slavery to pay off a debt he has to rich man. Other ancient laws actually require the debtor to be killed to "pay off the debt". We actually get a glimpse of this when in Genesis, the people to Egypt ask Joseph to, "Buy us and our land for food, and we with our land will be slaves to Pharaoh; and give us seed, that we may live, and not die and that the land may not be desolate."
Read with this context in mind, we see that slavery was a social institution during the time which some people actually needed as opposed to the alternative (death). All the laws you see about slavery, regulates it so as not to turn into an even bigger evil. The Bible regulates it but does not condone it. This is actually done by God in numerous moral teachings, one of which is divorce. In the New Testament, Jesus even uses the term, "because your hearts were hard."
Is slavery wrong? Yes. Was it allowed? For the time being, it was to avoid a greater evil. So we actually have guidelines for how masters should treat their slaves. And these guidelines were actually ahead of their time compared to others during the same time.
Why could your god not have just said, “don’t own people”? After all, your god didn’t hesitate to tell people about the evils of shrimp.
Slavery is one of those moral truths that take time to expel from society. Like divorce. So God decided to allow to for the mean time just so people don't die because of their debts.
Oh. Shrimps. and Pigs. and not using two different cloths in the same garment. The Old Testament has a lot of these laws which seem strange but actually underline a different truth which still holds to today.
Hogwash! You act as if you are your god’s excuse-maker. It takes time, therefore your all-powerful god sits back and waits? Tell that to those folks who drowned in his flood and had fire rain down on them in Sodom and Gomorrah.
It actually makes sense. Please take off you atheist glasses for once.
Stick a fork in me, I’m done.
@JoC: "So God decided to allow to for the mean time "
Roosevelt launched the New Deal to stop people dying because of their debts during the Great Depression. It took about three years to get that started. How come god has waited several millennia to do something about slavery? And by the way, not all slaves sold themselves because of debt. The majority were kidnapped.
I hope you're going to share that "different truth" that explains the bans on shrimp, pork, and oysters.
Actually the "different truth" on shrimp pork, etc, is quite irrelevant to the OP. Quick answer: it had something to do with a national identity that the Jews could identify with which separated them from the other nations.
Were they kidnapped? Or were they prisoners of war? Each one implies that the opposite party was the aggressor. The Bible actually forbids kidnapping and selling of anyone into slavery. See Exodus 21:16.
I thought god and his law is unchangeable, consistent absolute truth. You are saying here that it's not. Absolute truth would dictate that neither death for debt, nor slavery for debt, is acceptable. Looks like "god" just kinda makes things up as he goes. You also talked about greater evil and lessor evil. I thought god could have nothing to do with evil of any kind.
From the beginning, slavery, divorce, murder, stealing, and lying are all wrong. And nothing can change that. So what changed? We, as a people did! In the ancient world, rules like not murdering, stealing and lying were easier to understand. Slavery and Divorce fall under another category of moral laws that, while still wrong, are harder to accept by people.
It would be preferable to actually slowly denounce these practices through time when his people have matured slowly rather than tell them outright only for the law to be ignored and come about it even more evil.
Take for example telling a child about where babies come from and about shapes and colors. Both topics deal with truths but one is easier to explain to a child than the other. So you take your time with explaining where babies come from and while you may use mild language like the birds and the bees, the truth underlining it is still there.
@JoC: "It would be preferable to actually slowly denounce these practices through time when his people have matured slowly rather than tell them outright"
How do you know all this stuff? Do you and god have a hotline?
You can actually see these things in the story of salvation history. It happens even today.
I'd think that it's common knowledge that abortion is wrong. Whether you're for it or against it, it's wrong. And yet it's allowed and even legal in the hopes of reducing the number of abortions. We, as a people, have not matured enough to outright reject abortion as an evil that should not be tolerated at any level. I may be rambling but the analog sticks.
You have said two things that I ignored up until now!
1) divorce is wrong....
No I do not think divorce is wrong at all, I find your quick "everyone knows it's wrong" bullshit to be insulting! Why is it wrong outside of your bible and church? Why force two people who do not like each other to spend the rest of their lives together? And we can leave children out of this one for the sake of keeping it on strictly divorce!
2) abortion is wrong!!
Well I disagree, this obviously could be an entire post I suggest you start a new thread! But your narrow mind view to assert that this is wrong and everyone knows it is dishonest. I'm sure you thought you could slip it in without people fighting you, but not today! This whole the church says it's not ok therefore I believe it's not ok is bullshit!
I was actually careful not to say divorce is wrong and everyone knows it. As I get that not everyone will agree with me. What I did say was that abortion is wrong and everyone knows it. Even pro-choice advocates recognize this fact. The main goal of pro-choice advocates is ironically to reduce the number of abortions and reduce the number of unsafe abortions.
If you find that example contentious. Then let’s change the analogy to drugs. Some countries legalize drugs in the hopes of controlling drug use. The same with prostitution. Some countries make it legal with the hopes of reducing the harms caused by prostitution.
It seems your religious fantasy world is leaking into the real world. You should get that checked.
Thank you nyarlathorep
In the Catholic worldview these are true. But I made the distinction when I talked about abortion being considered wrong by everyone. Does that clarify things?
[edit ]Please also include the part where I say, "is wrong and everyone knows it". I said divorce is wrong. but I didn't say everyone knows it.