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Keith Raye's picture
Sinner: You obviously haven't

Sinner: You obviously haven't taken the trouble to read my earlier post regarding mathematics. If you have, then you've simply ignored it in the same way you ignore everything that doesn't fit into your ideology. 'A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest'
as the famous S&G song goes.

Darren Koch's picture
MYKCOB- Bible wasn't written

MYKCOB- Bible wasn't written over 300 yrs after Christ. Previously written Canon's were assembled into Bible 400 yrs. after Christ.

Logic- agreed, math is a very useful tool. I love tools, such as math, that are absolute. However, I may argue that math is just as absolute, "old" and constant as natural law itself. It really isn't debatable, and simply not yet completely understood. Long-winded point on my part, but I'd argue mathematical laws and absolutes pre-date man, and I'd argue they are just as inexplicable as the question of life itself. Plainly put, where'd math come from? I'd like thoughts...thx.

mykcob4's picture
The Council of Nicea created

The Council of Nicea created what is recognized as the first bible in 325 ADE. I have had this debate before and the fact is the reason for the bible was to consolidate power for Emperor Constantine. So far there is nothing in the New Testament that was written by anyone that lived in the 1st century.

LogicFTW's picture
The findings of math and how

The force of gravity on the surface of the earth existed long before humans came around.

F= (G(m(1))(m(2)))/(r(squared)), where F is the force due to gravity, between two masses (m(1) and m(2)), which are a distance r apart; G is the gravitational constant.

This is human constructed math being applied to the force of gravity, a force that has existed long before humans were around and will be around long after. For instance, humans came up with the 10 base system to do math. (They later came up with binary for computers.) Humans decided what a "foot" is, what a "meter" is and so on.

Math is measurement, quantifying, "math" did not exist before humans, humans created math, just like language. But the laws and forces that govern things like gravity, radioactive decay and so on, existed long long before humans. We, just, in our language, created something to measure these things to make it more useful to us. Just like we invented a shovel to help us dig better than with just our bare hands.

To put another way. Gravity acceleration on the surface of the earth is roughly 9.8 meters/(a second, squared.) If we put that in feet it is 32.2 feet.

If it is in meters, but in binary math it is: 1001.11001100110 meters. In roman numerals it is IX.VIII (Actually not sure if roman numerals had a place holder like the decimal.)

But to the law of gravity none of these numbers matter, it just is. It does not care how we measure it. We humans care because measuring it one way or another via math is useful to us. We humans just named it, just measured it, and created a concept/language system to quantify these forces so we can better predict things allowing for precision.

Darren Koch's picture
MYKCOB- are you saying the

MYKCOB- are you saying the entire New Testament was written, consolidated and published in 325 AD? Written by whom?

Logic- how do you explain laws of gravity as they've evolved over time, I.e. Dvali's claims that laws of gravity must be modified in accordance with acceleration of the universe? Point being, does science know a single darn thing, even when measured by the standards of mathematics, for certain? Awful lot of modified theory and law. I'm all for science and the pursuit of knowledge, just think of them more as a means of understanding truth, not man's infallible conclusions of natural law. We're wrong a lot!

mykcob4's picture

There was no bible until Constantine commissioned it. Therefore there was no bible before 325 ADE. The oldest known bible in existence today is the Codex Sinaiticus. It doesn't even have a resurrection.
Go ahead read the Codex's Gospels of Mark.

LogicFTW's picture


Sure, we humans and science are wrong a lot, science looks to correct itself constantly. I consider the drive and willingness to accept and look for mistakes and correct them to be a wonderful thing.

Science is right a lot more then it is wrong lately, we just do not consider the "wins." We take for granted.

Science predicted many years ago objects moving at great speed, has time move slightly different. For decades we had no practical every day use for that. Now, every time you use traffic/step by step mapping software reliant on GPS to locate you, the math and science accounts for the speeds the satellites above are traveling. If it did not, our gps would be only accurate within a couple dozen feet instead of accurate within just a few feet, because the science did not account for the passage of time difference on the satellite.

Darren Koch's picture
When were the Canon's written

When were the Canon's written? Not assembled into the Codex, but written?

mykcob4's picture
The Canons Sinner? A Canon is

The Canons Sinner? A Canon is a set of books that are agreed upon by a religious authority. The very first religious authority was the Council of Nicea in 325 ADE. BTW Sinner that was the first time the term "catholic" was actually used to describe the religion.
Can you prove which canons were written, when, and by whom?

Darren Koch's picture
I'll end it here, cuz we're

I'll end it here, cuz we're getting nowhere. It is commonly agreed upon by both religious and secular scholars that much of the New Testament was written, not assembled but written, between the late first up through middle third centuries. If you believe the text was supernaturally inspired, it really doesn't matter. If you believe a bunch of guys met at Nicea and whipped out the New Testament per Constantine's orders, you are ignorant on the subject. Catholic means universal. It was and is universal, started
by Christ, and I don't care when the term was put into use. Catholic dogma pre-dates the New Testament as we know it, the Church came first and this is why She is my authority.

chimp3's picture
It is still nonsense no

It is still nonsense no matter when it was written down. Universe created in 6 days every creature on earth on one boat during a flood, rising from the dead, sun stopping in the sky, forgiveness in the drinking of blood. Give us a break! Jesus Fucking Christ,what a load of bullshit!

mykcob4's picture
Nope Sinner, you are wrong on

Nope Sinner, you are wrong on so many levels. Parts of the new testament and only parts were written before the Council of Nicea. All of the new testament were assembled and taken from many sources most of which had nothing to do with christianity, at that council. Catholic was termed at that council and not before.

You keep trying to push a narrative that is just not factual or historically correct. We all know why. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and Peter, were not the authors of the gospels but they were given credit to fit a political agenda of authorship authority.
I know what "catholic" means. I have explained it some many times on this forum it isn't even funny.

How many people are posting under your moniker? That is the real question. Who is directing the posts of "Sinner" and why? What is the end game and the agenda? It's clear it isn't one person, and it is also clear that there is an ulterior agenda. None of which is honest or truthful.

Darren Koch's picture
Keith- we had such a good

Keith- we had such a good thing going before you got called out for mildly defending me from the other guy's rudeness! Stick to your guns man- or do u only call out atheists when they offend or mistreat other fellow-atheists? Several of you have a problem with accepting my point of view - disagree all you want, but why claim I'm "ranting" or ignoring your posts if I disagree? What have I lied about or ignored Keith? I admit I have a drastically different point of view- that not ok? I ask u questions because I value your particular viewpoint, and I've read all of your posts. So I'm a crazy liar cuz I believe in mathematical laws and constants that pre-date modern man? Finally, I assure you all "sinner" is 1 and only 1 ordinary guy from nowhere, KS. LOGIC- thanks for being more than decent, and I appreciate that we can disagree with each other without calling one-another liar's, or implying we didn't read the others posts if we have additional questions. With much respect...

Darren Koch's picture
Mykcob4- I know those guys

Mykcob4- I know those guys weren't the authors. U said it was written at Nicea, which is false. I'm flattered that u all think I'm more than 1 guy, why the hell do u think so? Dunno how to prove I'm solo, but I am...guess I really shouldn't care who thinks I'm some vast network of agenda-driven crazy people. Only agenda is to grow in defense of my faith and get a little entertainment while doing so. Agreed, I was a little
sloppy last night- caught me after a couple stiff Wellers!

mykcob4's picture
@Sinner I never said that

@Sinner I never said that they wrote the bible at the Council of Nicea. I said that there wasn't a bible until the Council of Nicea.
I think that you are batshit crazy and are being directed by some batshit crazy person.
"grow in defense"? What an odd statement. If you believe in your faith there should be nothing to defend. Why do have to defend it? The fact is that your faith is hollow based on falsehoods and fallacies. There is no defending that.

Keith Raye's picture
Entertainment? Now, there's a

Entertainment? Now, there's a revealing word. Thank you for that.

Darren Koch's picture
MYkcob4- " so far, there is

MYkcob4- " so far, there is nothing in the New Testament thy was written by anyone who lived in the first century". These are your words, and they are unequivocally false. Call me crazy all you want, but you are way off in many of your assertions.

mykcob4's picture
Prove it, Sinner. Prove

Prove it, Sinner. Prove anything in the New Testament that was written in the first century or earlier. All you will find are stories and myths from other nonchristian culture that christians stole and attributed to jesus. The resurrection, the virgin birth, miracles like raising people from the dead. Even walking on water comes from a different culture. There are no canons prior to the council of Nicea 325ade.
Sinner you don't ever provide any proof. I haven't seen one wit of a canon that precedes 325ade.
There are plenty of claims that stories were written down as early as 66Ad but there is no confirmation, no record.

Darren Koch's picture
Mykcob4- you stated, if I'm

Mykcob4- you stated, if I'm not mistaken, that no authors were "living" in 1st century. Fragments of the Gospel of John have been dated as far back as 125ad. It's possible, if not likely, this author was "living" in the 1st century.

mykcob4's picture
Let's do the math Sinner.

Let's do the math Sinner.
Gospel of John dates back to 125 AD. Hmmm... let's give the author 10 or so years just to gain popularity. This favors your claim a bit. So now that puts it at 115 AD. let's say that the person lived an extraordinarily long life for the time, say, 70 years. Still, puts us at 35 years after death. That means there could not have been any direct contact. Also, we didn't even account for the age of the writer when they actually were aware of things. We took him/her (probably a man) straight to his birth. Not realistic, but I did so to favor your cause as best I could. So it is highly unlikely that the author lived in the time of christ.

Aposteriori unum's picture
@sinner :If you feel that

@sinner :If you feel that your treatment here had been unfair then message me. Let's talk as logical men. You seemed to accept my challenge for debate. Do you accept it? Convince me and I will convince the others. If not then I will show you where your error lies. So far, it is not your arguments that stir me, but your arrogance.


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