To theists: which god do I choose?
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For a good proof of which God to choose, see thread titled "proof for the Torah"
Mansoor Al hallaj who lived over than thousand years ago declared "I am the truth". And the muslim ruler did not like it et all, and he was condemned to die. At the last minute for was asked to renounce the heresy, yet he refused, he believed that he was "The Truth" and ready to die for it. He was executed. These couple quotes are the examples that pissed them off:
"I have seen my Lord with the eye of my heart, and I said: 'Who are You?' He said: 'You."
"Oh you who have been removed from God in his solitude by the abyss of time, how can you expect to reach him without dying?"
The flying spaghetti monster seems to be up in the polls... just saying lol.
Choose Universe Shitting Unicorns (UFUs)
John6, what you have posted seems to be your own personal beliefs. From what I've heard, it does not match up to what most Christians believe or what the bible teaches. Thats fine. Everyone has that right. So in your belief how does a person get saved? Oh, yes, you're not interested in the eternal state of your soul, just doing good. Then why be christian?
All I have are my beliefs, that's all anyone has in this world.
Apart from that, almost every paragraph I've written here is either expounding upon, or using a verse to backup what I'm saying. Even the verses you posted are saying what I'm saying.
As to how a person gets saved, I told you already, God saves them. I don't understand why this concept is so complicated.
Why be Christian? Because I believe its true, why else.
John 6IX Breezy,
What's the criteria for getting baptized?
I respect your position John6. I'm just unclear as to what qualifies one person to be saved over another. You say god saves. OK, but how does a person better his or her chances of being saved? I know the new testament says that a person has to confess that Jesus is the son of god and was raised from the dead. There are dozens of verses that say salvation is only through Jesus. My point is, why should I pick Jesus over Krishna? Yes, I'm bringing the conversation back to this, it is the intent of this thread. If you say I dont have to pick, that contradicts the bible, bit you have hinted at this. It is a bit confusing, you see?
Krishna is better looking and can have sex with hundreds of women at the same time. Now there is a god to emulate!
You're misunderstanding the direction of causality, and until I'm certain you understand it I can't go much deeper. YOU don't PICK Jesus over Krishna. JESUS is the one that PICKS you. (Capitalized for emphasis, not anger lol). He's the one that died for you. The one that promises to save you. If Krishna is God, then let Krishna save me.
Read the verses you yourself posted:
John 14:6: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
That statement is either true or false. It doesn't matter if you're Christian, Atheist, or Hindu, Jesus is saying he is the only way to be saved.
Acts 4:12: "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved."
Again, only Jesus can save. I can't save myself. Its up to Him to save me.
1 Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus"
Again and again, Jesus. Not me. Not my religion. Not my church. Only Jesus.
Romans 10:9, 12: "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."
The book of Romans has to be read carefully and systematically because it builds on itself. As I mentioned earlier, there's a time and place where this type of confession is necessary. But you are not at that stage yet. You want the graduation before you signed up for the class. The only difference is, even if you haven't signed up for the class yet, Jesus can still save you.
As to the picking contradicting the bible, read a few verses down: "I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” You can't "pick" Jesus if you are not seeking Him, and yet He's saying those are the very people that find Him.
Why is it so complex? Why do they have to go on and on explaining it?
Does not believe in god. Done.
Why I am an atheist: The tools of reasoning and understanding and logic using real world tangible evidence point to god being an invention of man overwhelmingly over man being an invention of god.
The same tools of reasoning and understanding and logic using real world tangible evidence that we use for everything else in life if we want positive outcomes. 2+2 = 4. Not 3, not 5, but 4.
"As they approach me, so I receive them. All paths, Arjuna, lead to me."
"Those who worship other gods with faith and devotion also worship me, Arjuna, even if they do not observe the usual forms. I am the object of all worship, its enjoyer and Lord."
"However men try to reach me,I return their love with my love;whatever path they may travel,it leads to me in the end."
All that and he can have sex with a hundred women at once.
So, if Jesus is the one doing the picking, what happens to those he does not Pick? Also, if he's the one picking, how can there be punishment for those not chosen?
He picks everyone. He died to save Everyone. And the punishment isn't meant for us, hell was "prepared for the devil and his angels." Matt 25:41. Not us.
But its a choice. We choose either by our actions or our volition not to be saved, and reject the gift.
Thank you, John6, for a respectable debate. I'm going to bed now, but shall post tomorrow.
Before you choose, you have to set some parameters as to what God is and is not. For me, God, for Him to be God, would have to have no beginning and no end. He wouldn't be bound by the physical laws of nature. He should be lacking in nothing. He should be complete in love, wisdom, knowledge, power, etc. And lastly, He shouldn't contradict Himself meaning He cannot be completely evil as He would be complete in love.
Next comes the messy part. So many religions to choose from. Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoist, etc. Well, I have a suggestion for you. If you want to be truly sure that a certain religion is bogus, look to when and where and how this religion was founded and what is the core belief of that religion on which it stands or falls.
An example to start with would be Christianity. I ask you explore this for a minute. Belief in Christianity stands or falls on Jesus' resurrection. Disprove that and you've crossed out one.
Another example would be Mormonism. I'd say the belief of the Mormons stand or fall on the book of Mormon and how it came about. Disprove that and you've crossed out one.
Maybe just stick to the major world religions and tell me what you find.
"Disprove that and you've crossed out one."
So, you believe everything until it is disproven?
What mechanisms did you employ to disprove everything you do not believe in?
Please provide those mechanisms for, say, Hinduism.
Or to take it a step further, disprove santa clause, disprove the tooth fairy, disprove the monsters under your bed. Remember, they all have magic powers and like to stay hidden when investigated.
Can we agree to keep this discussion about religion?
Anyway, about santa, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, and say the boogeyman. I actually believe in those things BUT NOT in the way you've defined them. If you've seen Rise of the Guardians, you might get a glimpse as to why parents hide under the guise of Santa or the Tooth fairy and use the boogeyman to keep their kids in their beds to protect them from what may be potentially more dangerous outside the house at night.
Easier to explain a boogeyman to a kid than say, being robbed, or raped, or killed by a wild boar.
This was in response to the start of this thread which asked, "which god do I choose?" The presupposition being, the one asking would like to know which world religions are false and which ones have a chance at being true. I think we can agree that there exists a number of false religions or cults. For you, that means all religions are all false. I'm just saying that it's worth exploring the major religions of the world. There aren't that many.
Let's call all the gods out there proposed gods - candidates, if you will. I can't claim to know a lot about Hinduism but no one on Earth, at any time in history have never seen or even heard words come from the mouth of Allah or Vishnu or any other gods out there.
There does exist, however, several religions/cults, whose founder claimed to be God. Someone you could feel, touch, talk to, hear, with all four senses (I'm not including taste as I'm not sure anyone has tried that. lol). But of all those religions, only one has lasted as long as it did and is still out there.
The question being, why did it last at all? Early Christians claimed that Jesus rose from the dead and were willing to die for their faith in Him. It might be a long shot for you, but I can't imagine ever dying for something I thought had even a 10% chance of being false.
People die every day for religions you presumably believe are false; so that isn't likely to convince anyone here.
You have a point there. Thanks for pointing that out. I was talking about his Apostles. I'll summarize this story a little.
Jesus had a big following but had 12 apostles with whom he was very close to. They followed him until his death. Even before his death, one of his apostles, Peter, had already denied being a follower of Jesus three times and rather quickly, I should say. After he allegedly rose from the dead and walked in their midst, 11 of the 12 (Judas had taken his life at this time) kept on proclaiming his word to wherever they could. 10 of them died because of their belief in the Christ (John died of old age).
I find it very strange that these 10 men who died for their faith, did so when they could've taken the high road and denied that part of their life ever existed (like what Peter did) and this time it wasn't just someone else's life on the line. It was theirs.
Also to add, these men didn't die while trying to forcibly convert another person. They were persecuted for their beliefs so I wouldn't draw that kind of parallism.
Again, people die every day for refusing to denounce their faiths, that you presumably believe are false. What you are doing is called special pleading:
When group A (who happens to be associated with your faith) dies for their faith; you see that as a mark of the truth of the faith. When group B, C, and D do the same thing for a faith you think is false, you don't see it as a mark of the truth of their faith. In the Bible, Jesus had some pretty harsh stuff to say about hypocrisy.
I'm talking about the position these men were placed in. During Jesus' resurrection, only one of his apostles followed him to the cross. All the rest were in hiding; denying him, in fact. And a sudden 180 after he allegedly rose from the dead.
"Again, people die every day for refusing to denounce their faiths, that you presumably believe are false."
This is true. This doesn't take away the fact that I'd want to know why they did die for their belief. It might be something interesting enough to look into.
So you know that everyday people die for presumably holding to false beliefs; but you don't know why they do? I'll give you a hint: because just like you, they are convinced their religion/deity is real; and that when they die they will be sent to SugerCandyMountain (or whatever non-sense their particular brand promises).
"but you don't know why they do? I'll give you a hint: because just like you, they are convinced their religion/deity is real"
That's basically a given. I meant knowing why they're so convinced that God exists or why their religion is real. I've often asked my friends why they believe what they believe and if they give me the, "I can feel it in my heart" answer, it's usually not enough to convince me. I've recently begun listening to podcasts (not an avid reader) about why Christians believe what they believe. Then curiosity got hold of me. Started listening to why Muslims believe what they believe. Then Atheists, Mormons, etc. It's thru appreciate on these hard facts which aren't based on "feelings" which drew me closer to the Catholic faith.
That's my story though. But it is an interesting topic. Why people believe what they believe. Things like, the resurrection, the Quran and its roots, the book of Mormon and how it came about.
By the way, a sugar candy mountain sounds awesome. Maybe not for eternity. I need my bacon as well.
Sugar Candy Mountain is a reference to Animal Farm. Moses the raven preached a religion to the animals; promising the animals that if they did what the masters (human, then pigs) ordered, they would be rewarded in the next world by being sent to Sugar Candy Mountain (located somewhere in the sky). He was allowed to produce no food, but eat the production of others in exchange for spreading this tale by those in charge, to prevent unrest and uprisings.
I'm sure I don't need to layout the allegory.
Nah. No need to do that.
Jon the Catholic,
People absolutely love to die for their favorite causes. They will insist on it. So just because the Apostles died for their favorite cause it doesn't mean anything special. After all, they were bribed to do so.
Remember this little gem from Matthew 19:28-29 (TLB) = 28 And Jesus replied, “When I, the Messiah, shall sit upon my glorious throne in the Kingdom,* you my disciples shall certainly sit on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And anyone who gives up his home, brothers, sisters, father, mother, wife, children, or property, to follow me, shall receive a hundred times as much in return, and shall have eternal life."
That also brings up another problem since there are no marriages in heaven. So what good is to have 100 wives or a herd of children? (The writer wasn't thinking when he wrote that passage).
And in Revelation 6:9-11 (CEV) = "9 When the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of everyone who had been killed for speaking God’s message and telling about their faith. 10 They shouted, “Master, you are holy and faithful! How long will it be before you judge and punish the people of this earth who killed us?”
11 Then each of those who had been killed was given a white robe and told to rest for a little while. They had to wait until the complete number of the Lord’s other servants and followers would be killed."
The passage from Revelation is really manipulative because it makes a promise that will never be fulfilled. Countless people have died for the promise that their souls are being kept under the altar safe from hell. But they are just dead and forgotten.
Now imagine how excited ancient ignorant superstitious twits got at the hope that they would hit the cosmic jackpot if they hung in there and got killed or had abandoned their families for their religious beliefs because a con man had made some unverifiable promises to them.
But you don't have to be a religious twit to be eager to die for your favorite deity. Military personnel and first responders do it every day. It's one of mankind's favorite way to die. People can't wait for it to happen to them.