A tip for atheists

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Jordan's picture
A tip for atheists

Stop bringing up the fact that you don’t think There is a God becasue of the evil that exists in the world or that God is cruel, oppressive and vengeful.

If you do not believe in God, then you should have no opinion on his character. Because whether he was good or evil would not determine his existence. God could be evil, so what? Whose to say if there is a God he HAS to be kind?

Furthermore, if we are just a product of random and natural unguided processes, then there is most likely no such thing as objective moral values outside of our own perception and what one might consider “evil” another might consider moral.

So by professing God has abandoned people, is homophobic or likes slaves you claim to know these things are bad, but says who? What’s bad and good? After all we are supposedly just evolved bacteria whoseonly objective is surviving.

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Sapporo's picture
For me, if there is an issue,

For me, if there is an issue, it is more that others believe that "God"'s character is a particular way, and use it to attempt to justify harmful actions.

For me, it is very much important to emphasize that even if such a god existed, it should not be obeyed.

But this is completely independent of the actual lack of evidence for "God".

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Jordan

@ Jordan

If you take your morals and ethics from a book then you are not a moral person.
You are a person without morals...amoral.

When the book you take your morals from is full of advice on keeping slaves, stoning children, restrictive diet and infanticide then it is not a good book to follow.

Simple really, even for a theist.

Jordan's picture
Who’s to say? What makes your

Who’s to say? What makes your morals right and mine bad? Where’s your proof that slavery and murder are wrong?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Jordan

@ Jordan

If you have to ask that question then you are an amoral person. You also completely lack empathy.

Empathy is a trait honed by evolution that aids in survival. It is demonstrated in many mammals. You should try it sometime.
As it is you seem to be more dangerous than a cut snake.

If you need someone/thing or a threat of punishment to stop you enslaving, raping and committing murder then you are someone I would avoid like poison.

Jordan's picture
No I don’t but your obviously

No I don’t but your obviously missing the point - perhaps intentionally-

We evolved to have morals? There is absolutely no proof to that. And if we were evolved for survival then why do we know it’s wrong to kill off all the people who are unable to contribute to society? Wouldn’t it be better for our species survival to kill off those that take up more resources than they contribute?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@Jordan

@Jordan

No I am not 'missing the point'. Unlike your disjointed comments I am consistent.

I never said " evolution gave us morals' do not misrepresent me again. I said that empathy was an evolutionary advantageous trait for social animals. That man has developed that trait into what we would call 'morals and ethics ' is a sign of our very human intelligence. No outside agency required.

IF you believe your last sentence, or even present that kind of idea, then you really are amoral and a poster boy for fascism.

(Edit for clarity)

Talyyn's picture
@Jordan

@Jordan

@Old man shouts...

"IF you believe your last sentence, or even present that kind of idea, then you really are amoral and a poster boy for fascism. "

But maybe his hypothetical God is a fascist?

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Talylin

@ Talylin

Who knows what Jordan means?...he seems to have great difficulty communicating ideas.

Talyyn's picture
@Old man shouts...

@Old man shouts...

Or maybe he don't know very well the ideas he tries to communicate. He must that we are not mind-reading wizard and less so omniscient so it is difficult for us.

As a side note, you often misspell my pseudo, not that i mind, of course.

Old man shouts at clouds's picture
@ Talylyn

@ Talylyn
Many apologies...the two 'y's...dang it....

Talyyn's picture
@Old man shouts...

@Old man shouts...

Next time i take a pseudonym, I will make it much more difficult to write... What? I am a sadist? Nooooooooo, i just want to play.That's it!

Sheldon's picture
Jordan "Who’s to say? What

Jordan "Who’s to say? What makes your morals right and mine bad? Where’s your proof that slavery and murder are wrong?"

Are you saying you think slavery and murder are not immoral? Your deity doesn't seem to think they are, judging from your bible. Personally I care about the well being of others, and that they don't suffer unnecessarily, that's all the "proof" I need that murder and slavery are immoral.

David Killens's picture
@Jordan

@Jordan

When or where on this planet would be it appropriate to own another human being, or just kill someone? Take your time, try to formulate a response.

I will cut to the chase ..... NEVER.

As an atheist it is my position on morality to stand on the side of well-being. Thus I hold a superior position to your god who is murderous (actually a homicidal manic), is in favor of slavery, and capable of any horror, for no good reason.

Jordan, you have taken a losing position because your bible clearly documents an amoral and evil god.

Jordan's picture
Whose to say? Where is your

Whose to say? Where is your proof that any of that is wrong? Do you just belive it’s wrong?

chimp3's picture
I can argue against slavery

I can argue against slavery without referring to any gods. The God of the Koran / Judeo-Christian Bible is an asshole for sure. That does not mean that I believe he exists. I believe he is a creation of human beings and they are also assholes.

Jordan's picture
Why is it wrong? What proof

Why is it wrong? What proof is there that it is wrong? Some cultures may think it’s moral so how do you know your morals are the right ones? You just belive it’s wrong?

CyberLN's picture
Jordon, you wrote, “Stop

Jordon, you wrote, “Stop bringing up the fact that you don’t think There is a God becasue of the evil that exists in the world or that God is cruel, oppressive and vengeful.”

I can say whatever I like about any characters I choose. You don’t get to tell me not to. I absolutely DO NOT have to believe your god is real to provide an opinion about that god. I have opinions about many fictional characters.

And, you can’t figure out that owning another human being is wrong without a god telling you that? Wow. Just. Wow.

Jordan's picture
Where the proof that slavery

Where the proof that slavery is wrong? To some people it may be moral. You BELIVE it’s wrong but there is no proof that it is wrong. Perhaps survival of the fittest will be those who use slaves.

CyberLN's picture
For one thing, I use empathy

For one thing, I use empathy to understand that things like slavery are wrong. I would not want to be owned by another. I would not want to be murdered, raped, assaulted, etc. Empathy allows me to put myself in someone else’s shoes.

Jordan, are you unable to employ empathy in your daily life? You require a list of rules to be provided to you from elsewhere to keep you from purposely hurting another?

If your god instructed you to kill someone you love, would you do so?

Cognostic's picture
@Jordan: This is actually

@Jordan: This is actually an interesting topic as slavery is alive and well in the world today. Even in America. We tolerate slavery for certain segments of the population and it is outlawed for others. Hypocritical isn't it? As there is no system objective morality (at least I have never seen anyone list a set of objective morals) we are still left in the position of making a judgment. The good bad dichotomy does not seem to apply to institutionalized slavery. Instead they ask, "is it useful?" As long as they can say "Yes" then slavery is justified.

That says nothing about it being good or bad. "Is the owning of another human being morally good?" It depends. This is why you must operationalize morality prior to speaking about it. (You must clearly define what you mean by morality prior to making any kind of judgment.) Saying it is "objective" means absolutely nothing. I have never seen an example of an objective moral. NEVER. Scientists are off to a much better start with the assertion of "Well Being" as a guide to moral behavior. It will not solve any of the same moral dilemmas that the assertion of objective morality does not solve but it is specific, clear, testable, and measurable. That makes it very much like the woo woo assertion of objective morality.

Cognostic's picture
@Jordan: There is no point

@Jordan: There is no point in making an argument that "God" is evil when a person does not believe in "God" or "gods." The only time an Atheist might make the assertion that a got is evil is if the god is defined by a Christian or Muslim as being "All Good." Obviously the god of the Bible and the Koran are megalomaniacs. How is it that you do not understand, all evaluations of God or gods are contingent on the definition being used. If you don't like discussing the problem of Evil, do not assert your god is good. It's just that easy.

RE: "Furthermore, if we are just a product of random and natural unguided processes, then there is most likely no such thing as objective moral values outside of our own perception and what one might consider “evil” another might consider moral."

Is this not the case? What are you talking about when you say objective morality? The world I live in is full of subjective morality. Where is this objectivity you speak of? Can you give me three good examples of objective morality so I know what the hell you are talking about? There tends to be some agreement among atheists that morality is based on well being and as long as we agree on that, morality is objective. If your morality is based on something else, on what do you base your morality? So. 1. Define your basis of morality. 2. Give three examples.

3. RE: Furthermore, if we are just a product of random and natural unguided processes.

This is very confusing. Random and natural are not the same thing. Natural processes are not random. We understand most natural processes and even have descriptive laws explaining them. Two hydrogen atoms bond with one oxygen atom to create water. Completely natural and nothing random about it. Can you define a "random process." Perhaps you mean "random event." Wouldn't any "process" be non-random?

PROCESS:
1. a series of actions or steps taken in order to achieve a particular end.
2. perform a series of mechanical or chemical operations on (something) in order to change or preserve it.
3. A process is a set of activities that interact to produce a result.
4. : a natural phenomenon marked by gradual changes that lead toward a particular result.

Apparently, from what I am reading, to have a process one must have an end result in mind. If there is an end result in mind, the process can not possibly be "random." The word "random process" becomes an oxymoron. If there is a process, apparently it is following some set pattern be it biological or chemical, and there is nothing at all random about it. Can you give an example of a random process?

RE: "what one might consider “evil” another might consider moral." EXACTLY! What's your point? You think it is completely moral to log into an atheist site and sling moronic and inane insults. We think you are an ass who is just trolling the site and trying to get a reaction. You are morally schooling the filthy sinners. And we are morally responding to your absurdities like you are an intelligent human being capable of growth and learning.

RE: "Professing God has abandoned people is homophobic?" Is English your first language? WTF? So...... only homophobes profess that God has abandoned people? You do understand that this has nothing what so ever to do with atheism. Atheists are people who do not believe in god or gods. How can something you do not believe in abandon you? Your comment makes as much sense as asserting "People who profess the blue universe creating bunnies have abandoned them are pedophiles." Are you a pedophile? Of all the comments you have made on the site, this one takes the cake. You win the prize of the week for the dumbest comment on the site.

Tin-Man's picture
To whom it may concern:

To whom it may concern:

A few tips for dishonest theists posing as atheists on an atheist site...

1. Pretending to take a "Devil's Advocate" position is effective only if you don't SUCK at it.

2. Attempting to deceive people into believing you are something you are not indicates an incredible lack of personal integrity, and it is probably not the best way to represent your particular faith. (Especially if you SUCK at it.)

3. For those theists who utilize such ridiculously lame and unscrupulous tactics as a method to promote/defend their particular brand of religion, please sleep soundly at night knowing your unsavory behavior helps us immoral heathen atheists breathe a deep sigh of relief. For it is the deplorable antics of theists like you that confirm for us just how damaging religions can be to the human psyche, and it reminds us of how incredibly lucky we are to have escaped its insidious clutches.

4. There are many FAR BETTER hobbies in which to engage other than Trolling. Be bold! Take a chance! Step away from the keyboard for a bit. Believe me, there is more to the world than just the four walls of your parents' basement.

Bad Santa's picture
LOL,

LOL,
well delivered..
slam dunk!

Jordan's picture
You only think these things

You only think these things because you never sought to gain anything from my post. You begin reading it with agitation, not open mindedness or else you would have something constructive to say in response.

Sheldon's picture
1. The argument from evil is

1. The argument from evil is predicated against the theist claim that a perfectly benevolent deity with limitless knowledge and power exists. So your moronic tantrum is entirely moot. Telling people what they can or cannot say in a public forum takes a breathtaking level of stupidity.
2. Human morality is based on human reason, thus it is all subjective, and this includes all religious doctrine and dogma, until a theist can demonstrate objective evidence a deity exists, and that they know what it wants, and even then they'd either know what objective morality is and wouldn't need divine diktat, or would be incapable of knowing what is objectively moral and thus would be little more than amoral automatons if they followed it blindly. As you demonstrate amply in your post, by implying you don't know behaviours like slavery and homophobia are bad. They cause unimaginable and unnecessary suffering, to any moral person that should be enough.
3. We are evolved as are all living things. We're not bacteria, and we an attach any purpose to our lives we choose. We are not bound to follow evolutionary instincts any more than we are bound to follow the ignorant cruel and immoral ravings in outdated religious texts.

I must say you really do appear incapable of any imaginative, rational or even original thoughts. You are regurgitating the worst cliched rhetoric and asinine arguments religious apologetics can muster.

Have you ever considered actually thinking for yourself, with an open mind? What is it you fear?

Jordan's picture
Yes of coarse. But who is to

Yes of coarse. But who is to say slavery is bad? One culture may think it is good? Morals are not something that can be PROVED yet atheists seem to belive in them.

Sapporo's picture
Jordan: Yes of coarse. But

Jordan: Yes of coarse. But who is to say slavery is bad? One culture may think it is good? Morals are not something that can be PROVED yet atheists seem to belive in them.

Why then do you say "Furthermore, if we are just a product of random and natural unguided processes, then there is most likely no such thing as objective moral values outside of our own perception and what one might consider “evil” another might consider moral.",
as though it could be otherwise?

Sheldon's picture
"Yes of coarse. But who is to

"Yes of coarse. But who is to say slavery is bad? One culture may think it is good? Morals are not something that can be PROVED yet atheists seem to belive in them."

I just told why slavery is immoral, as have others. Are you really saying you can see nothing immoral in the unimaginably cruel and barbaric suffering caused by slavery? Would you rather live in a culture that practised slavery, or in a free democracy where all citizens were equal? I've already said all human morality is subjective, and this includes religious doctrine and dogma, you are the one claiming objective morality exists not me, so why you keep tacking the word belief onto your claim is unclear, but all the atheists who denounce slavery as immoral have given sound rational reasons for that belief, whereas religious apologetics can offer no sound reason why genocide, slavery, rapine, ethnic cleansing, sex trafficking female prisoners, infanticide, human sacrifice etc etc are ok when the deity in the bible performs and encourages such acts.

Get off my lawn's picture
@Jordan: "If you do not

@Jordan: "If you do not believe in God, then you should have no opinion on his character. "

In addition to ticking "all of the above" replies you already have received, I will add my own: The claims about this elusive ghost-person God that religious people of diverse denominations put forth are concrete claims about the nature and characteristics of their god said or written in public places and fora. To assume that non-believers would completely ignore these asinine claims is naive in the extreme. What is put forth in public needs to be discussed, analyzed, dissected and critized in public. Just like any other claims, like scientific claims (here we have a system in place, called peer review), political claims, etc. Why should religious claims have a free pass and avoid all criticism and comment?

Sheldon's picture
@Jordan: "If you do not

@Jordan: "If you do not believe in God, then you should have no opinion on his character. "

If you believe in a deity you should be able to demonstrate something more tangible than mere unevidenced opinion. In the meantime if delusional people want to insist others adhere to a religion's diktat, then anyone has the right to comment on that, so I suggest you suck it up.

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